Dishing the Dirt

[ImporterExporter]

The AHL was better in the 60s, but those 50s AHL rosters were better than the top Soviet, Czech and Swedish teams.

How I see it as well.

Making a roster out of NHL'ers who stared in the AHL for at least one season and received at least some AS votes, there are 2 positions where you'd be hard pressed to find any Soviet era that could compete with the following biggest names:

Goalies:

Glenn Hall (51/52)
Terry Sawchuk (48-50)
Johnny Bower (late 40's, most of 50's)
Gump Worsley (63/64 and 64/65)
Harry Lumley (56/57)
Ed Giacomin (60/61 through 64/65)
Gerry McNeil (57/58 through 60/61)
Ken Hodge (off and on from mid 50's to mid 60's)
Roger Crozier (63/64)
Les Binkley (62-66)

Defensemen:

Doug Harvey (63/64 through 66/67)
Pierre Pilote (52/53 through 55/56)
Tim Horton (49/50 through 51/52)
Allan Stanley (47-48 and 48/49)
Fern Flamen (61/62 through 63/64)
Ott Heller (46/47 through 51/52)
Bill White (60/61 through 66/67)
Gus Mortsen (58/59 and 59/60)
Pat Egan (51/52 through 54/55)
Ted Harris (59/60 through 63/64)
Al Arbour (62/63 through 66/67)
Gary Bergman (60/61 through 63/64)
Bob Armstrong (51/52, 57/58, and 62/63)
Ed Van Impe (61/62 through 65/66)
Fred Shero (50/51 through 54/55)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

How I see it as well.

Making a roster out of NHL'ers who stared in the AHL for at least one season and received at least some AS votes, there are 2 positions where you'd be hard pressed to find any Soviet era that could compete with the following biggest names:

Goalies:

Glenn Hall (51/52)
Terry Sawchuk (48-50)
Johnny Bower (late 40's, most of 50's)
Gump Worsley (63/64 and 64/65)
Harry Lumley (56/57)
Ed Giacomin (60/61 through 64/65)
Gerry McNeil (57/58 through 60/61)
Ken Hodge (off and on from mid 50's to mid 60's)
Roger Crozier (63/64)
Les Binkley (62-66)

Defensemen:

Doug Harvey (63/64 through 66/67)
Pierre Pilote (52/53 through 55/56)
Tim Horton (49/50 through 51/52)
Allan Stanley (47-48 and 48/49)
Fern Flamen (61/62 through 63/64)
Ott Heller (46/47 through 51/52)
Bill White (60/61 through 66/67)
Gus Mortsen (58/59 and 59/60)
Pat Egan (51/52 through 54/55)
Ted Harris (59/60 through 63/64)
Al Arbour (62/63 through 66/67)
Gary Bergman (60/61 through 63/64)
Bob Armstrong (51/52, 57/58, and 62/63)
Ed Van Impe (61/62 through 65/66)
Fred Shero (50/51 through 54/55)

What were the ages of all those players when they were in the AHL?

 

[ImporterExporter]

What were the ages of all those players when they were in the AHL?

There you go sir. Nice robust range of ages, plenty of prime or near prime years to choose from. And that's a very abbreviated list.

Goalies:

Hall - 20

Sawchuk - 19/20 (he was a 1st team AHL AS at 20 and then 1st team NHL AS at 21). I'd take a 20 year old Sawchuk over any Soviet G, ever, not named Tretiak.

Bower - 21/33 (with a few NHL seasons in his 20's mixed in).

Worsley - 28, 30, 34, 35 (seems like a few prime age years in there for a G)

Lumley - 30/32 (Bower won unanimous 1st team AS nod over age 30 Lumley in 57)

Giacomin - 22/26

McNeil - 23, then 31-32 and 34 (Bower won unanimous 1st team AS nod over age 31 McNeil)

Hodge - 35

Crozier - 21

Binkley - 26/31

Defensemen:

Harvey - 39/42 (even at that age, I'd bet on him being an Olympic level talent in 60's USSR rather easily)

Pilote - 21/24 (NHL regular right off the bat, 5th in Calder)

Horton - 20/22 (AHL AS and then 2nd team NHL AS in his 2nd full season)

Stanley - 20/22 (runner up for Calder first year)

Flamen - 20, then 35/37

Heller - 36/41

White - 21/27

Mortsen - 35/37

Egan - 33/36

Harris - 23/27

Arbour - 30/34

Bergman - 22/25

Armstrong - 20, 26, 31

Van Impe - 21/25

Shero - 25/29

 

[BraveCanadian]

No it wasn't. Not broken down as I have done.

You did a bio on him in 2014, and had his MVP/Calder info there in 2014 That's about it. Nothing in the 2015 bio by Rob. Nothing else is touched on. You didn't look at the individual AS years, you didn't dig up the yearly AS teams for the AHL, or put together the start of a comprehensive list of AHL/NHL players.

This is your contribution:


I'm 100% certain there is no way that comment above is made if my name was that of many other reputable members. You wouldn't have made that post had TDMM or Theo posted the material.

Whatever. I'll continue to post information that I don't find available for the masses in places like this. If you think it sucks or repetitive, how about ignoring it? Or better yet, do the research and contribute to the process. I'm here doing the work, running the draft, contributing in many ways. You are flying by and making snide comments that contribute absolutely nothing.

Rob's bio absolutely did list Bower's AHL all star nods (the number of them anyways). This is not new info.

It is nice that you went digging for the full teams (and that should be put in a resource somewhere in the pinned threads), but again, if you think Bower is so underrated, who does he leapfrog? Figuring that out is the important part of this if you think a lot of people missed it in the past. Maybe I am wrong but I am sure it is a long standing opinion here that Bower was well known as one of the players logjammed by the O6.

Here is a thread discussing Bower's rating from THN, his dominance of the AHL, his MVPs there, and being stuck in the O6 from a decade ago.

Please let up with the victim complex. I have done a bunch of digging through old newspapers in the past and did a bunch of that in this draft as well.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Rob's bio absolutely did list Bower's AHL all star nods. This is not new info.

It is nice that you went digging for the full teams, but again, if you think Bower is so underrated, who does he leapfrog?

ATD 2015 Bio Thread

Where? I must be blind. Where does that show his individual AS nods in the AHL, and who they were won over? It shows NHL AS data. None of the quotes show anything related to AHL AS awards.

I haven't studied the AHL enough to fully gauge where I place it in terms relative to other non NHL leagues. It's pretty clear there was a plethora of NHL caliber talent through the entirety of the the 06 era, some of whom played multiple years in the AHL. How that translates to 1960's/70's Soviet hockey or pre-consolidation? More discussion is needed.

Bower played in a league with a 20 year old Sawchuk, Hall, 30 year old Lumley, 31 year old McNeil, winning awards over the latter 2. Is winning league MVP, and top goalie honors over a still very ripe Harry Lumley really any different than an AS vote in the 1916 PCHA season? If one gets brought up in evaluating an all time status, why not the other?

So if we were to say treat the 1950's AHL as the 1910's North American game, then how could one not conclude Bower is underrated considerably, considering he won 3 straight league MVP's, was 6 time AS (over an NHL HOF), 3 titles, wins, etc, etc.

Unless of course the 1950's AHL is nowhere near 1910's North American hockey or 1960's domestic Soviet hockey. Maybe that's the case? Maybe this league isn't quite on the level of those 2 leagues mentioned above, but how much of a gap can there really be?

Just something I put together rather quickly. AHL age listed in ( )

Bower - (32)
Sawchuk - (20)
Lumley - (31)

Pilote (24) - Harvey (39)
Stanley (22) - Horton (22)
Ted Harris (27) - Bill White (27)
Heller (36)

Sid Smith (23) - Ratelle (23) - Hextall (35)
Gaye Stewart (30) - Camille Henry (23) - Bathgate (21)
Klukay (23) - Don McKenney (20) - George Armstrong (21)
Don Marshall (21) - Red Sullivan (24) - Nevin (21)

 

[ImporterExporter]

Please let up with the victim complex. I have done a bunch of digging through old newspapers in the past and did a bunch of that in this draft as well.

You came in here acting like what I'd posted as a giant waste of my time and everyone else's. I'd love to hear a 3rd party tell me my perception is off. By all means.

I went digging for AHL information today that had nothing to do with Johnny Bower or any player I drafted. Years that Bower wasn't in the league. Why? Because it was asked of me. So I did it.

Should I be spending hours upon hours looking up info for Hap Holmes, when not matter what I find, it won't really change the perception on him? He's my back up goalie. What is the reasoning for taking time out of my day/night to look this up?

Because right now, there is a conclusion based on incomplete information. And it bothers me. And I'm taking it upon myself to add more information to the equation so that we can form a new conclusion or not change the one that exists, who knows. It's not personal. I've not said a mean word to anyone. Disagreed? Sure. But the past 2 years especially, I keep it on the level and want it that way, for myself, and everyone else.

Do you know how many cookie cutter bio's get put up every year? Again, I ask you. Are you going in and protesting those people for putting out information we already apparently know? Based on your conduct earlier, you should be.

You don't see me insulting their work. At least they're doing something. Contributing something, even if it's minor.

And circling back to Bower, if this AHL data was so widely known, why was it not even touched on when discussing his all time merits in a HoH top project currently going on? Sure seems like something that might have been considered when evaluating Bower specifically.

Are we going to seriously say that Tommy Phillips played in a more competitive league than Bower in the 1950's AHL? Soviet accomplishments in their 1960's domestic leagues? Worth far more than league MVP's in 56-58 in the AHL? Maybe so on both accounts.

Do you not see how this looks from my POV?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

IE, I think your research is absolutely worthwhile, especially for the full AHL all-star teams in some seasons.

That said, I think that Bower's AHL awards in particular have been floating around here for awhile. When I said in the past that I didn't think Bower was much better than Billy Smith, someone pointing out his AHL record is what made me change my mind.

It is really hard to know what to make of Bower's great AHL seasons. How does being AHL MVP relate to being an NHLer? It clearly means he was good enough to be an NHLer, so it adds "longevity" seasons to him at least. Does it add more than that?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

ATD 2015 Bio Thread

Where? I must be blind. Where does that show his individual AS nods in the AHL, and who they were won over? It shows NHL AS data. None of the quotes show anything related to AHL AS awards.

Near the top of the bio:

3x AHL MVP winner
5x AHL 1st AST
1x AHL 2nd AST
1x WHL Best Goalie (per nik jr)

That said, awards like that without the context of competition are harder to evaluate.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Near the top of the bio:



That said, awards like that without the context of competition are harder to evaluate.

Yes, those AS nods are listed, we didn't know what years specifically, so not worth a whole lot. Basically the only information we had were bullet points. Nothing in depth.

And now we know what years he was getting the AS recognition, who he was winning said recognition over, and have a pretty good idea who was playing in the league during these years so context of competition would seemingly be a bit clearer than a few days ago.

When you look at the names of players, and their ages, that played throughout the years, I don't know how you'd conclude pre 1910 hockey or everything up through at least mid 60's Soviet/Euro era hockey was superior competition. I'd scoff at these AHL years if all these big names only played at 19, 20, and 35+. That's not remotely close to reality though. Horton was a 22 year old AS in the AHL and then quickly in the NHL. Pilote played there through age 24. Bill White 27.

A discussion to be had in the future, on the HoH forum I hope.

Right now, I don't know how you value 60's Soviet era hockey over 50's/60's AHL. Certainly not by any discernible margin. Was Jiri Holecek playing in a superior league in Czechia, 1970's? Russell Bowie in 1900-1908?

If Bower's major accomplishments in the AHL are on par with those players, and you then add that to his Maple Leafs resume, I'd wager he rises a good bit as his ranking a month ago seems to be exclusively tied to Toronto.

But I guess it all comes down to where you place the AHL during these years.

 

[ImporterExporter]

IE, I think your research is absolutely worthwhile, especially for the full AHL all-star teams in some seasons.

That said, I think that Bower's AHL awards in particular have been floating around here for awhile. When I said in the past that I didn't think Bower was much better than Billy Smith, someone pointing out his AHL record is what made me change my mind.

It is really hard to know what to make of Bower's great AHL seasons. How does being AHL MVP relate to being an NHLer? It clearly means he was good enough to be an NHLer, so it adds "longevity" seasons to him at least. Does it add more than that?

Thanks sir, appreciate it!

Attempted to answer some of those questions in post above.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yes, those AS nods are listed, we didn't know what years specifically, so not worth a whole lot. Basically the only information we had were bullet points. Nothing in depth.

And now we know what years he was getting the AS recognition, who he was winning said recognition over, and have a pretty good idea who was playing in the league during these years so context of competition would seemingly be a bit clearer than a few days ago.

When you look at the names of players, and their ages, that played throughout the years, I don't know how you'd conclude pre 1910 hockey or everything up through at least mid 60's Soviet/Euro era hockey was superior competition. I'd scoff at these AHL years if all these big names only played at 19, 20, and 35+. That's not remotely close to reality though. Horton was a 22 year old AS in the AHL and then quickly in the NHL. Pilote played there through age 24. Bill White 27.

A discussion to be had in the future, on the HoH forum I hope.

Right now, I don't know how you value 60's Soviet era hockey over 50's/60's AHL. Certainly not by any discernible margin. Was Jiri Holecek playing in a superior league in Czechia, 1970's? Russell Bowie in 1900-1908?

If Bower's major accomplishments in the AHL are on par with those players, and you then add that to his Maple Leafs resume, I'd wager he rises a good bit as his ranking a month ago seems to be exclusively tied to Toronto.

But I guess it all comes down to where you place the AHL during these years.

I think that the depth of talent in the pre-expansion AHL was better than the Euro leagues at the time, but the best AHLers eventually played in the NHL, which can't be said about the very best Europeans at the time.

Jiri Holecek in particular (since you mentioned him) gets at least as much credit for what he did against the Soviet national team than anything in his domestic league IMO.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I think that the depth of talent in the pre-expansion AHL was better than the Euro leagues at the time, but the best AHLers eventually played in the NHL, which can't be said about the very best Europeans at the time.

Jiri Holecek in particular (since you mentioned him) gets at least as much credit for what he did against the Soviet national team than anything in his domestic league IMO.

Agree 100%.

Let me put it this way.

Bower won 3 straight AHL MVP's. He was a unanimous 1st AS over Lumley (31) and McNeil (30) in the 2nd and 3rd of those years, both very recognizable names, and established NHL lower tier stars (Lumley being a HOF'er of course. There was obviously some NHL caliber talent at D/F as well throughout, with D being significantly stronger.

Are Johnny Bower's 3 best years worth the 3 best years of Russell Bowie in the first decade of the 1900's?

It would take a lot for me to get on board with the notion that hockey players, relative value, from 1900 to 1910 could compete with those playing in the AHL in the 50's/60's.

Russell Bowie's career got him placed just outside the top 100. Bower had other AS caliber years beyond the 3 MVP ones. How much different are their 2 careers? If there isn't, and you add Bower's AHL resume to the NHL version, mathematically, he'd have to move up in an all time light. Terry Sawchuk might even gain a very small nudge for his 2 stellar years there, one of them over an older Bower.

The first rebuttal will be, "Bowie was the best player in the world most/all of those years". The easy counter to that though, is hockey was infinitely better in the 1950's and 60's. Being best in the world 120 years ago doesn't mean the same as 50-60.

Is a well known 60's Soviet career better than Bower's AHL career? I think it will vary with just about everyone.

 

[BraveCanadian]

IE, I think your research is absolutely worthwhile, especially for the full AHL all-star teams in some seasons.

Agreed.

It is really hard to know what to make of Bower's great AHL seasons. How does being AHL MVP relate to being an NHLer? It clearly means he was good enough to be an NHLer, so it adds "longevity" seasons to him at least. Does it add more than that?

This is the thing. It is pretty tough to move up from the position Bower is in on most lists. I know that people here on the board did use his AHL career as part of his ranking, but obviously people give the AHL different weights - even in the O6 when we know a lot of players that may have otherwise been NHLers were stuck there for a time.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Agreed.



This is the thing. It is pretty tough to move up from the position Bower is in on most lists. I know that people here on the board did use his AHL career as part of his ranking, but obviously people give the AHL different weights - even in the O6 when we know a lot of players that may have otherwise been NHLers were stuck there for a time.

1. What people were using his AHL ranking to place him in this ongoing project, or any other he was involved in? I certainly didn't see it it anywhere in either round he was involved in last month and I've followed closely, and even re-read those 2 specific rounds he was up for vote. If it wasn't brought up by anyone, how could it have been used to evaluate his standing? Unless of course everyone or most everyone knew the details about his AHL career, which would seem like a notion based on fantasy given fact that nobody even discussed it openly.

2. Players being stuck in the AHL, that otherwise would have made the NHL only enhances the value of the AHL, IMO. I think it pretty evident there were numerous starting NHL caliber players, some quite good, at ages that don't make me think they were greatly distanced from their NHL level.

How can Bower's AHL career not possibly move him up in an all time light UNLESS you think the AHL tenure is worth next to nothing in a historical context.

Do you really think that Russell Bowie's (1900-1908) accomplishments or Tommy Phillips (1903 to 1912) really came in a tougher league environment? I genuinely would like someone to chime in.

Bowie came in just outside the top 100 all time, based solely on a career that was over before most great all time players had arrived. Phillips, in the same boat, sans maybe his last year in Vancouver in 1912. Phillips is currently up for discussion inside the top 150.

1. 3 consecutive league MVP's (56-58)

NHL caliber players in the league these years? Here are a handful that include a couple of NHL HOF'ers (Pilote, Lumley, Watson), and others who were NHL AS's at least once (McNeil, Wharram, Henry, Horvath).

Pierre Pilote (1956, 24 years old)
Harry Lumley (1957, 32 years old)
Gerry McNeil, (1957-58, 31 years old)
Joe Klukay (1956, 33 years old)
Harry Watson (1957, 34 years old)
Ken Wharram (1956-58, 22-24 years old)
Camille Henry (1956-57, 23-24 years old)
Bronco Horvath (1957, 26 years old)
Cal Gardner (1958, 33 years old)
Pete Conacher (1956-58, 23-25 years old)
Floyd Smith (1956-58, 20-22 years old)

2. 5 1st team AS nods (52, 53, 56, 57, 58)

Unanimous 1st team nods over Lumley (57) and McNeil (58) would seem to be worth something given they are HOF and AS caliber goalies, with Lumley being a 1st team NHL AS and Hart runner up just 2 years prior.

So again, the point being that if we give credit for things players were doing in say 1905, and those things helped propel a player into fringe top 100 status, how can we not boost Bower based on things he was doing in a league that almost surely was superior, not only in terms of top end talent but depth easily.

 

[BraveCanadian]

1. What people were using his AHL ranking to place him in this ongoing project, or any other he was involved in?

A lot of people in pretty much all of the ranking projects. Seriously.

Again, how much weight people give it is probably pretty variable, but I'd feel pretty safe in assuming that most reasonable people around here have given Bower credit for his AHL time due to circumstances.

I haven't been paying attention to the top 200 project, but here is a post in the discussion there that has a lot of info about Bower and specifically takes into account his AHL time AND posits that he was probably the best player outside the NHL at the time based on how well he did there.

 

[Dreakmur]

I used Bower’s AHL accomplishments as part of my evaluation, and also used it in my argument for him being better than Turk Broda in last years playoffs.

 

[ImporterExporter]

A lot of people in pretty much all of the ranking projects. Seriously.

Again, how much weight people give it is probably pretty variable, but I'd feel pretty safe in assuming that most reasonable people around here have given Bower credit for his AHL time due to circumstances.

I haven't been paying attention to the top 200 project, but here is a post in the discussion there that has a lot of info about Bower and specifically takes into account his AHL time AND posits that he was probably the best player outside the NHL at the time based on how well he did there.

Do you think me incapable of reading or having not done so? You clearly stated that your aren't even paying attention to the project you linked, so allow me to expand.

Yeah the DN post? You mean the one I already highlighted when I posted in the HoH, as being the only person to even give the AHL resume a look in the latest project? I specifically tagged DN as being the only person to BRIEFLY touch on his AHL record, which was completely ignored. And you know why? Probably because most people glossed over it, as it's "minor league hockey". I've read every single word that exists on Bower in that project. I'm not finding anything from the old projects years ago either.

You keep stating, as if it were fact, that all these voters adjusted Bower's ranking for his time spent in the AHL. Unless you can get the voters to come in here and say, "yep, I knew the intricacies of Bower's AHL career and adjusted accordingly" I don't give your "pretty safe assumption" any merit. None. It belies logic. Go ahead. Get tarheelhockey, MXD, Q, current ATD members here who are voting, etc.

If people aren't/weren't talking about anything beyond "Bower won 3 Les Cunningham awards" and "was a 6 time AS", in a major project, either A, they don't know much, or B, are intentionally leaving it out of the discussion, for whatever reason. Those sorts of points, if they were being taken seriously would have mentioned by more than one single person, briefly. It would have been discussed as I"m attempting to do now. Either way, it handicaps Bower.

I'll say this much. Bower would be a top 200 player all time in my book based solely on his AHL resume. I've gathered enough data that makes the AHL league look on par (IMO better) with any league in North American hockey prior to the NHA/PCHA/NHL. And it certainly is better than any international league or tournaments through at least the mid 1960's. And there are players, who have already been ranked that played in these era's. I don't think anything Russell Bowie did dominating the CAHL is any better than winning 3 straight league MVP's in the AHL from 56-58. Not likely.

That doesn't mean I think Bowie's ranking is wrong. I find it quite accurate and have long been a supporter and advocate of his. I simply think Bower would comfortably end up in the top 100, ranking much closer to Broda, Benedict, Gardiner, etc. I think Bower was ranked where he was by folks this year, almost entirely on his Toronto resume and very, very limited knowledge of his AHL exploits, which was indeed very limited when his name came up. People knew MVP's and total AS nods (not including the year or competition). That's it. Just bullet point info. How could anyone, in a legitimate manner, adjust their ranking based on such little information?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Do you think me incapable of reading or having not done so? You clearly stated that your aren't even paying attention to the project you linked, so allow me to expand.

Yeah the DN post? You mean the one I already highlighted when I posted in the HoH, as being the only person to even give the AHL resume a look in the latest project? I specifically tagged DN as being the only person to BRIEFLY touch on his AHL record, which was completely ignored. And you know why? Probably because most people glossed over it, as it's "minor league hockey". I've read every single word that exists on Bower in that project. I'm not finding anything from the old projects years ago either.

You keep stating, as if it were fact, that all these voters adjusted Bower's ranking for his time spent in the AHL. Unless you can get the voters to come in here and say, "yep, I knew the intricacies of Bower's AHL career and adjusted accordingly" I don't give your "pretty safe assumption" any merit. None. It belies logic. Go ahead. Get tarheelhockey, MXD, Q, current ATD members here who are voting, etc.

If people aren't/weren't talking about anything beyond "Bower won 3 Les Cunningham awards" and "was a 6 time AS", in a major project, either A, they don't know much, or B, are intentionally leaving it out of the discussion, for whatever reason. Those sorts of points, if they were being taken seriously would have mentioned by more than one single person, briefly. It would have been discussed as I"m attempting to do now. Either way, it handicaps Bower.

I'll say this much. Bower would be a top 200 player all time in my book based solely on his AHL resume. I've gathered enough data that makes the AHL league look on par (IMO better) with any league in North American hockey prior to the NHA/PCHA/NHL. And it certainly is better than any international league or tournaments through at least the mid 1960's. And there are players, who have already been ranked that played in these era's. I don't think anything Russell Bowie did dominating the CAHL is any better than winning 3 straight league MVP's in the AHL from 56-58. Not likely.

That doesn't mean I think Bowie's ranking is wrong. I find it quite accurate and have long been a supporter and advocate of his. I simply think Bower would comfortably end up in the top 100, ranking much closer to Broda, Benedict, Gardiner, etc. I think Bower was ranked where he was by folks this year, almost entirely on his Toronto resume and very, very limited knowledge of his AHL exploits, which was indeed very limited when his name came up. People knew MVP's and total AS nods (not including the year or competition). That's it. Just bullet point info. How could anyone, in a legitimate manner, adjust their ranking based on such little information?

I would have NR'd Bower in every single round he was available if it weren't for his AHL record.

With what I knew about his AHL record at the time, I voted him middle of the pack in the round he got in.

____

I think BC has a point - if you want to make the argument that Bower is underrated, maybe try comparing him to a goalie who seems generally ranked above him? Belfour might be a place to start - he's similar to Bower in that he was the clear #4 of his era behind a "big 3." Dreakmur compared him to Broda.

Frankly, it's probably my bias as a Devils' fan, but I really like goalies who played tons of games per season (at a high level of course), so I'm lower on Bower than most. I realize that on a "per game" basis, he's better than guys I would "rank" above him.

____

Re: the names you listed - I see no case whatsoever for Bower to be ranked similarly to Gardiner, who was the clear best of his era, arguably best-all-time when he played.

Benedict and Broda, sure, even if I wouldn't necessarily do it.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I would have NR'd Bower in every single round he was available if it weren't for his AHL record.

With what I knew about his AHL record at the time, I voted him middle of the pack in the round he got in.

____

I think BC has a point - if you want to make the argument that Bower is underrated, maybe try comparing him to a goalie who seems generally ranked above him? Belfour might be a place to start - he's similar to Bower in that he was the clear #4 of his era behind a "big 3." Dreakmur compared him to Broda.

Frankly, it's probably my bias as a Devils' fan, but I really like goalies who played tons of games per season (at a high level of course), so I'm lower on Bower than most. I realize that on a "per game" basis, he's better than guys I would "rank" above him.

____

Re: the names you listed - I see no case whatsoever for Bower to be ranked similarly to Gardiner, who was the clear best of his era, arguably best-all-time when he played.

Benedict and Broda, sure, even if I wouldn't necessarily do it.

BC doesn't have a point. He keeps doubling down on incorrect assumptions (like people all factored in AHL data, which couldn't have happened in a legitimate manner based on lack of total information) and this entire thing started off with a snide remark. That's my issue for starters. I'm not attacking people for not discussing the merits. You all didn't have the information. But the fact remains, when you did consider the AHL record, you did so with a very limited scope. Not personal. Just stating facts.

Me discussing this, both here and in the HoH is an attempt to find out how underrated he was. That's the point of my posts, fleshing out year AS data, who was in the league etc. Well, the real reason is I'm just shilling for the ATD, but hey, that's the MO I've been stuck with now for years haha. I'm used to it. Won't deter me from continuing the work. I know you and many others do appreciate it as I appreciate all your hard work, and the work of others.

I think Broda is a great comp actually. Howie Meeker said Bower was better than Broda and taking Bower's AHL regular season merits + Toronto looks better as a regular season goalie certainly, given Broda didn't exactly have a long reign of dominance in the regular season at the NHL level . His claim to fame, largely is in the postseason.

Charlie Gardiner? I'll never understand the hype on him. Just don't. Someone will have to clue me in apparently. I've seen the discussions. Just don't get it.

Gardiner who played 7 years, less than his counterparts at the time.

I get it, he died young. So did other stars who probably lost out on a HOF career (Scott Davidson comes to mind right off the bat). Gardiner doesn't have great longevity. Just as Bower didn't looking his NHL record. If you're going to punish the Bower's of the world, how can we not punish Gardiner for playing less than the other best G's of the time?

His career spanned much less than his counterparts (Worters, Hainsworth, Thompson). Longevity is not a strong mark. I'm surprised to see someone who values that in G's be in the corner of Gardiner.

Gardiner never finished better than 7th in Hart voting (once). Bower is better. Bower was a runner up for Hart in 61. He finished just behind Geoffrion, ahead of 32 year old Gordie Howe, ahead of 29 year old Glenn Hall. He was better than Plante and Sawchuk. Surely we're not going to conclude Gardiner has a better Hart record than a man who went 2, 7, 7 at the NHL level and won 3 straight MVP's in the AHL.

Gardiner has an inferior playoff record to Bower. Significantly, even just looking at NHL data.

• Gardiner is a 4 time AS (3 1sts). Best players he beat out? Worters/Hainsworth/Thompson.
  
• 1 time SC champ in 4 playoff tries
  
• 1 notable Hart finish (7th)
  
• 7 years in the league, far less than counterparts of era.

• Bower had a 1st team AS nod over Hall, Plante, Sawchuk in 61.
  
• He was a unanimous 1st AS in the AHL AS over Lumley in 57 and McNeil in 58.
  
• Hart record of 2, 7, 7 is superior to Gardiner, especially given Bower's age and who he was finishing in front of (noted above)
• Statistically Bower is among the best goalies in the history of the league be it in a smaller sample size
  
• Bower won 3 SCs as the unquestioned starter, performing at an extremely high rate of play. Platooned with Sawchuk for his 4th title.
  
• 3 AHL MVP's (we can see who was in the league during these times)
• 6 time AHL AS (we can see who he was winning these nods over and who was in the league)
• 3 time Calder champion as unquestioned starter.
  
• Greatest AHL player of all time by any metric we want to throw out there.
  
• The only player in hockey history to be both an AHL and NHL HOF'er and neither are weak selections.

And Bower did all of this with bad arthritis and poor eyesight, things that would have been managed and corrected in a modern society.

Side by side? Yeah, Bower looks better to me.

 

[ResilientBeast]

BC doesn't have a point. He keeps doubling down on incorrect assumptions (like people all factored in AHL data, which couldn't have happened in a legitimate manner based on lack of total information) and this entire thing started off with a snide remark. That's my issue for starters. I'm not attacking people for not discussing the merits. You all didn't have the information. But the fact remains, when you did consider the AHL record, you did so with a very limited scope. Not personal. Just stating facts.

Me discussing this, both here and in the HoH is an attempt to find out how underrated he was. That's the point of my posts, fleshing out year AS data, who was in the league etc. Well, the real reason is I'm just shilling for the ATD, but hey, that's the MO I've been stuck with now for years haha. I'm used to it. Won't deter me from continuing the work. I know you and many others do appreciate it as I appreciate all your hard work, and the work of others.

I think Broda is a great comp actually. Howie Meeker said Bower was better than Broda and taking Bower's AHL regular season merits + Toronto looks better as a regular season goalie certainly, given Broda didn't exactly have a long reign of dominance in the regular season at the NHL level . His claim to fame, largely is in the postseason.

Charlie Gardiner? I'll never understand the hype on him. Just don't. Someone will have to clue me in apparently. I've seen the discussions. Just don't get it.

Gardiner who played 7 years, less than his counterparts at the time.

I get it, he died young. So did other stars who probably lost out on a HOF career (Scott Davidson comes to mind right off the bat). Gardiner doesn't have great longevity. Just as Bower didn't looking his NHL record. If you're going to punish the Bower's of the world, how can we not punish Gardiner for playing less than the other best G's of the time?

His career spanned much less than his counterparts (Worters, Hainsworth, Thompson). Longevity is not a strong mark. I'm surprised to see someone who values that in G's be in the corner of Gardiner.

Gardiner never finished better than 7th in Hart voting (once). Bower is better. Bower was a runner up for Hart in 61. He finished just behind Geoffrion, ahead of 32 year old Gordie Howe, ahead of 29 year old Glenn Hall. He was better than Plante and Sawchuk. Surely we're not going to conclude Gardiner has a better Hart record than a man who went 2, 7, 7 at the NHL level and won 3 straight MVP's in the AHL.

Gardiner has an inferior playoff record to Bower. Significantly, even just looking at NHL data.

• Gardiner is a 4 time AS (3 1sts). Best players he beat out? Worters/Hainsworth/Thompson.
• 1 time SC champ in 4 playoff tries
• 1 notable Hart finish (7th)
• 7 years in the league, far less than counterparts of era.

• Bower had a 1st team AS nod over Hall, Plante, Sawchuk in 61.
  
• He was a unanimous 1st AS in the AHL AS over Lumley in 57 and McNeil in 58.
  
• Hart record of 2, 7, 7 is superior to Gardiner, especially given Bower's age and who he was finishing in front of (noted above)
• Statistically Bower is among the best goalies in the history of the league be it in a smaller sample size
  
• Bower won 3 SCs as the unquestioned starter, performing at an extremely high rate of play. Platooned with Sawchuk for his 4th title.
  
• 3 AHL MVP's (we can see who was in the league during these times)
• 6 time AHL AS (we can see who he was winning these nods over and who was in the league)
• 3 time Calder champion as unquestioned starter.
  
• Greatest AHL player of all time by any metric we want to throw out there.
  
• The only player in hockey history to be both an AHL and NHL HOF'er and neither are weak selections.

And Bower did all of this with bad arthritis and poor eyesight, things that would have been managed and corrected in a modern society.

Side by side? Yeah, Bower looks better to me.

Gardiner is such a weird guy for you to attack his playoff record. The man died to win the Stanley Cup

Also you're neglecting the difference in team talent from the Chicago Blackhawks of the 1930s and the Dynasty Maple Leafs of the 60s

Just from Wikipedia

During the 1932–33 season Gardiner began to develop a tonsil infection that drained his strength. While he initially kept the infection private, Gardiner made his condition public on December 23, 1932.[39] Even though he was ill, Gardiner played the next night in Toronto. Though his fifty-five saves were the deciding factor in the Black Hawks win and his performance was so good that both league President Frank Calder and Maple Leafs star forward Charlie Conacher praised him, he was so sick he would collapse on the dressing room floor in between periods with a fever of over 100 degrees Fahrenheit; after the game Gardiner was rushed to a local hospital.[40] This was the first notable symptom of Gardiner's health issues.[39]
In January 1934 the Black Hawks were on a train back to Chicago when Gardiner felt an intense pain in his throat that spread to the rest of his body, notably his kidneys. When questioned by Tommy Gorman about his issue, Gardiner lied to Gorman and insisted it was only a minor headache. However, when Gardiner woke up on the train in the morning, he had trouble seeing, as black spots obscured his vision. This was Gardiner's first uremic convulsion.[41]
Gardiner's health continued to be an issue throughout the 1934 NHL playoffs. On March 29, 1934 in a playoff game against the Montreal Maroons Gardiner had a shutout as the Black Hawks won 3–0; though he was named first star as the best player of the game, Gardiner was in extreme pain during the entire game with a fever of 102 Fahrenheit and was attended to by a doctor in the dressing room during intermissions.[42]
Playing with a tonsillar infection for most of the season, Gardiner was often slumped over his crossbar during breaks in games, nearly blacking out. After leaving for a singing lesson on June 10, 1934, Gardiner, a baritone, collapsed. He went into a coma, from which he never woke. Gardiner died on June 13, 1934, from a brain hemorrhage brought on by the infection.[38]
In a Montreal Gazette story about Gardiner's untimely death that ran on June 14, 1934, Detroit general-manager Jack Adams declared Gardiner to be "a grand chap; one could not help but like him. He was undoubtedly the finest netminder in the league. What is more, he always played the game as a gentleman."[43]

 

[ResilientBeast]

BC doesn't have a point. He keeps doubling down on incorrect assumptions (like people all factored in AHL data, which couldn't have happened in a legitimate manner based on lack of total information) and this entire thing started off with a snide remark. That's my issue for starters. I'm not attacking people for not discussing the merits. You all didn't have the information. But the fact remains, when you did consider the AHL record, you did so with a very limited scope. Not personal. Just stating facts.

Me discussing this, both here and in the HoH is an attempt to find out how underrated he was. That's the point of my posts, fleshing out year AS data, who was in the league etc. Well, the real reason is I'm just shilling for the ATD, but hey, that's the MO I've been stuck with now for years haha. I'm used to it. Won't deter me from continuing the work. I know you and many others do appreciate it as I appreciate all your hard work, and the work of others.

I think Broda is a great comp actually. Howie Meeker said Bower was better than Broda and taking Bower's AHL regular season merits + Toronto looks better as a regular season goalie certainly, given Broda didn't exactly have a long reign of dominance in the regular season at the NHL level . His claim to fame, largely is in the postseason.

Charlie Gardiner? I'll never understand the hype on him. Just don't. Someone will have to clue me in apparently. I've seen the discussions. Just don't get it.

Gardiner who played 7 years, less than his counterparts at the time.

I get it, he died young. So did other stars who probably lost out on a HOF career (Scott Davidson comes to mind right off the bat). Gardiner doesn't have great longevity. Just as Bower didn't looking his NHL record. If you're going to punish the Bower's of the world, how can we not punish Gardiner for playing less than the other best G's of the time?

His career spanned much less than his counterparts (Worters, Hainsworth, Thompson). Longevity is not a strong mark. I'm surprised to see someone who values that in G's be in the corner of Gardiner.

Gardiner never finished better than 7th in Hart voting (once). Bower is better. Bower was a runner up for Hart in 61. He finished just behind Geoffrion, ahead of 32 year old Gordie Howe, ahead of 29 year old Glenn Hall. He was better than Plante and Sawchuk. Surely we're not going to conclude Gardiner has a better Hart record than a man who went 2, 7, 7 at the NHL level and won 3 straight MVP's in the AHL.

Gardiner has an inferior playoff record to Bower. Significantly, even just looking at NHL data.

• Gardiner is a 4 time AS (3 1sts). Best players he beat out? Worters/Hainsworth/Thompson.
  
• 1 time SC champ in 4 playoff tries
  
• 1 notable Hart finish (7th)
  
• 7 years in the league, far less than counterparts of era.

• Bower had a 1st team AS nod over Hall, Plante, Sawchuk in 61.
  
• He was a unanimous 1st AS in the AHL AS over Lumley in 57 and McNeil in 58.
  
• Hart record of 2, 7, 7 is superior to Gardiner, especially given Bower's age and who he was finishing in front of (noted above)
• Statistically Bower is among the best goalies in the history of the league be it in a smaller sample size
  
• Bower won 3 SCs as the unquestioned starter, performing at an extremely high rate of play. Platooned with Sawchuk for his 4th title.
  
• 3 AHL MVP's (we can see who was in the league during these times)
• 6 time AHL AS (we can see who he was winning these nods over and who was in the league)
• 3 time Calder champion as unquestioned starter.
  
• Greatest AHL player of all time by any metric we want to throw out there.
  
• The only player in hockey history to be both an AHL and NHL HOF'er and neither are weak selections.

And Bower did all of this with bad arthritis and poor eyesight, things that would have been managed and corrected in a modern society.

Side by side? Yeah, Bower looks better to me.

And you're free to believe that, but nothing you've said is terribly convincing to me.

Edit: I have to address the bolded up there....sheesh man what a bad faith argument about Gardiner's longevity.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I "punish" Gardiner a bit for lack of longevity, it's the only reason I rank Brimsek and Vezina over him.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

BTW, don't use the last top 100 for Charlie Gardiner. He appeared many rounds too late and was voted #1 in his round as soon as he appeared.

Kind of lame that he was voted comfortably ahead of Benedict when we actually compared the two in the goalies project, but Benedict appeared so much earlier in the top 100 project and was added before Gardiner was even an option.

 

[ImporterExporter]

And you're free to believe that, but nothing you've said is terribly convincing to me.

Edit: I have to address the bolded up there....sheesh man what a bad faith argument about Gardiner's longevity.

I'll just ignore another insult by yet another member and touch on your points:

I'm out to lunch on longevity on Gardiner? OK, whatever.

I guess I can't add at a 1st grade level or compare him to every other G during the same time period who all played longer. He doesn't get credit for dying at 29. Sorry. That's the constant for everyone. If you think playing 7 years = strong longevity, even for that era, I don't know what we have left to discuss on Gardiner.

And what is with the attempt to get special credit for dying as it relates to winning a SC? Does that somehow increase the value? Does it now mean he has 2, or 3 titles his his name? It's awful that he lost his life. I've said or done nothing to diminish the bad fortune.

So let's get down to it.

Bower's regular season in the AHL and NHL combined are superior to Gardiners 7 years in the NHL.

Right now, I have the 1950's AHL on par with 1960's Soviet hockey. Winning multiple league MVP's in mid to late 60's Soviet hockey + his regular season numbers with Toronto and accolades in the NHL = better than Gardiner.

I'll gladly wait for people other than you to tell me that the 1950's AHL wouldn't be able to compete with 1960's domestic Soviet hockey.

You talk about competition. I'll gladly wait for anyone other than you to tell me that the NHL, or goal tending specifically, in late 1920's/early 30's was superior to 1950's/60's NHL hockey. The 06 was so good you had multiple HOF'ers in the AHL for multiple years. HOF'ers superior to Thompson or Hainsworth or even Worters.

Bower has better Hart record, over better players.

I'll wait for someone other than you to tell me I'm wrong.

Bower has a better 1st team AS finish, over better goalies, ie comp.

Meaning his 1961 season is as good or better than anything Gardiner ever did, in any year. I'll wait for someone other than you to tell me I'm wrong. Again, remember who Bower was besting in net for awards and who he was getting more Hart votes than. I already named them.

Gardiner has better depth of finishes as an AS.

This is literally the only point clearly in favor of Gardiner, head to head.

Bower is far better in the postseason. 4 titles. 3 unquestioned as starter. You'll see below who he was helping defeat.

Nice stat: Bower literally has an many SC wins to his name as Gardiner has playoff appearances.

And yeah, as someone who preaches context, and relative values all the time, including this year, again, I'm aware of who Gardiner played for vs who Bower played for.

That does not remotely make up the difference. The domination Bower showed in the 60's, in the playoffs, consistently, again playing better than and beating players like Sawchuk (finals, twice) and Hall (finals) and Plante in the first round (once).

And that's completely ignoring his AHL playoff resume, which people are going to do, because it doesn't help their position, right now. Again, I'll wait for others to tell me I'm wrong.

Goalies Bower outperformed in the SCF's, all wins of course?

Glenn Hall (1962)
Terry Sawchuk (1963)
Terry Sawchuk (1964)

And he was doing this from his late 30's into his 40's, with arthritis and poor eyesight.

Hey, I get it. I'm only doing this to push an agenda though. I must have Bower ranked above Dryden by the end of the week!!!

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'll just ignore another insult by yet another member and touch on your points:

I'm out to lunch on longevity on Gardiner? OK, whatever.

I guess I can't add at a 1st grade level or compare him to every other G during the same time period who all played longer. He doesn't get credit for dying at 29. Sorry. That's the constant for everyone. If you think playing 7 years = strong longevity, even for that era, I don't know what we have left to discuss on Gardiner.

And what is with the attempt to get special credit for dying as it relates to winning a SC? Does that somehow increase the value? Does it now mean he has 2, or 3 titles his his name? It's awful that he lost his life. I've said or done nothing to diminish the bad fortune.

So let's get down to it.

Bower's regular season in the AHL and NHL combined are superior to Gardiners 7 years in the NHL.

Right now, I have the 1950's AHL on par with 1960's Soviet hockey. Winning multiple league MVP's in mid to late 60's Soviet hockey + his regular season numbers with Toronto and accolades in the NHL = better than Gardiner.

I'll gladly wait for people other than you to tell me that the 1950's AHL wouldn't be able to compete with 1960's domestic Soviet hockey.

You talk about competition. I'll gladly wait for anyone other than you to tell me that the NHL, or goal tending specifically, in late 1920's/early 30's was superior to 1950's/60's NHL hockey. The 06 was so good you had multiple HOF'ers in the AHL for multiple years. HOF'ers superior to Thompson or Hainsworth or even Worters.

Bower has better Hart record, over better players.

I'll wait for someone other than you to tell me I'm wrong.

Bower has a better 1st team AS finish, over better goalies, ie comp.

Meaning his 1961 season is as good or better than anything Gardiner ever did, in any year. I'll wait for someone other than you to tell me I'm wrong. Again, remember who Bower was besting in net for awards and who he was getting more Hart votes than. I already named them.

Gardiner has better depth of finishes as an AS.

This is literally the only point clearly in favor of Gardiner, head to head.

Bower is far better in the postseason. 4 titles. 3 unquestioned as starter. You'll see below who he was helping defeat.

Nice stat: Bower literally has an many SC wins to his name as Gardiner has playoff appearances.

And yeah, as someone who preaches context, and relative values all the time, including this year, again, I'm aware of who Gardiner played for vs who Bower played for.

That does not remotely make up the difference. The domination Bower showed in the 60's, in the playoffs, consistently, again playing better than and beating players like Sawchuk (finals, twice) and Hall (finals) and Plante in the first round (once).

And that's completely ignoring his AHL playoff resume, which people are going to do, because it doesn't help their position, right now. Again, I'll wait for others to tell me I'm wrong.

Goalies Bower outperformed in the SCF's, all wins of course?

Glenn Hall (1962)
Terry Sawchuk (1963)
Terry Sawchuk (1964)

And he was doing this from his late 30's into his 40's, with arthritis and poor eyesight.

Hey, I get it. I'm only doing this to push an agenda though. I must have Bower ranked above Dryden by the end of the week!!!

Come on, man. You'll calling Gardiner's 1st and 2nd team All-Star nods in the NHL "depth?"

It would take a lot to convince me that an AHL MVP is worth more than a 2nd Team All-Star nod in the NHL. Maybe in very specific circumstances, but not in general, not even 1960s AHL.

Bower was great in the playoffs no doubt.