Discouraged Pens Faithful

[td_ice]

You never told me you got to watch Ron Duguay in his heyday!

Lucky ass....

omg......When we got him, I thought he was going to set the world on fire here. Just a year and half removed from scoring 38 goals. Not so much. He played 50 some games here, sucked, and was gone. As I do remember him playing well against us.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

omg......When we got him, I thought he was going to set the world on fire here. Just a year and half removed from scoring 38 goals. Not so much. He played 50 some games here, sucked, and was gone. As I do remember him playing well against us.

Everything hockey has done for me I kind of owe indirectly to Duguay. When he was a Rag and I was four or five, I was at my Uncle's house and all of my dad's brothers were there watching the Pens game. It was the first game I ever saw and Duguay had a couple of goals that game.

All of my Uncles screamed at the TV every time he scored... "Duguay you ****ing suck!" The game had me mesmerized and my Uncles were so in to it that it was like magic sitting there taking it all in.

I remember seeing his hair whip back as he pissed all over the Pens and I told my uncles I was going to be just like Ron Duguay! I got my first stick and skates shortly after by pestering my dad non stop and the rest is history.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

When Duguay played for the Red Wings, my sister and I went to see a Habs-Red Wings game. We sat ice level, maybe eight seats away from the visitors' bench. My sister was eying him all night. Watching her mentally undress Ron Duguay that night was an image hard to leave me. It was disturbing.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

When Duguay played for the Red Wings, my sister and I went to see a Habs-Red Wings game. We sat ice level, maybe eight seats away from the visitors' bench. My sister was eying him all night. Watching her mentally undress Ron Duguay that night was an image hard to leave me. It was disturbing.

I bet she tells her friends the same story about you.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I bet she tells her friends the same story about you.

He's a fairly handsome man, after all.

 

[td_ice]

Everything hockey has done for me I kind of owe indirectly to Duguay. When he was a Rag and I was four or five, I was at my Uncle's house and all of my dad's brothers were there watching the Pens game. It was the first game I ever saw and Duguay had a couple of goals that game.

All of my Uncles screamed at the TV every time he scored... "Duguay you ****ing suck!" The game had me mesmerized and my Uncles were so in to it that it was like magic sitting there taking it all in.

I remember seeing his hair whip back as he pissed all over the Pens and I told my uncles I was going to be just like Ron Duguay! I got my first stick and skates shortly after by pestering my dad non stop and the rest is history.

That's a great story.

No doubt, Duguay had the flowing locks going on.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

That's a great story.

No doubt, Duguay had the flowing locks going on.

I think he still has long hair... Funny as hell. That cat played forever didn't he? He was playing pro hockey into the late 90s I think.

I played a ton of roller hockey in the summer in my teens/early 20s and played in some semi pro leagues with players like Kip Guenther, Jamie Adams, etc who played for the Phantoms in the old RHI (Alain Lemieux/Trots also played for them). They knew Duguay, who eventually played for the San Diego Express in the WRH (world roller hockey league).

So I never met the guy, but it sort of came full circle for me, in a Kevin Bacon kind of way.

 

[kahlon66]

Shero & Bylsma were given Malkin & Crosby. In turn they are to provide us with cups. Not regular season victories. Stanley Cups. It's been almost a decade and we have one.

If you think people are mad now wait and see if changes aren't made and we lose again this year.

Exactly right on!!!!

 

[Al Smith]

That's a great story.

No doubt, Duguay had the flowing locks going on.

With the long hair and the name, he was easy for a lot of fans to make fun of as being a sissy or whatever. But the dude was pretty good and used to stick it to the Pens regularly. At least he kept his long hair flowing in the breeze longer than Bob Nystrom and Guy Lafleur.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

If there were no complaining, there would be no sports.

I just do my part to keep the NHL alive man.

You can thank me later.

 

[Dacks]

Try to understand this, there is only one way to force a change in how a professional team operates and that is a disgruntled fanbase. Shero is relying on fans like you, he even said so in PC. Sorry that I'm not jumping on the "family" bandwagon. But I already went down the same road once with Craig Patrick. For years, all I heard around town was, how can anyone question Patrick?? He won two cups!! I would try to remind everyone I spoke to that it wasn't Patrick that won two cups, he had allot of help between Badger Bob and Scotty Bowman. And you can actually point a line to when Pens started to decline to the day Scotty left the organization. And yes, I know Ownership had a role, but that didn't come into play until the very end of the 90's.
If you don't want to hear negative input on your Pens, tough. This is a message board, this is a forum for all types of opinions. If you want, start a cheerleading board and ban anyone that is ever negative.

Tiring of reading the same negative posts literally hundreds of times in a thread is not the same as blindly supporting the organization. There is a balance between blind cheerleading and overbearing cynicism. Neither is fun but the board is currently tilted too far to the latter.

And you're right, this is a message board for opinions. That includes the opinion being voiced by a number of posters sympathetic to the OP.

 

[canadianguy77]

Tiring of reading the same negative posts literally hundreds of times in a thread is not the same as blindly supporting the organization. There is a balance between blind cheerleading and overbearing cynicism. Neither is fun but the board is currently tilted too far to the latter.

And you're right, this is a message board for opinions. That includes the opinion being voiced by a number of posters sympathetic to the OP.

We've already watched Toews and Kane raise 2 cups and they're a good bet for a third, relatively soon, and that stings; at least for me it does. If we pushed Boston to a game 7 last year, most of this "negative" talk wouldn't exist, but the fact is we were swept while only scoring 2 goals. The cupboard isn't bare either, not by any stretch of the imagination. Shero has the assets to make the team better and give his a team legit shot at another championship. (Assuming DB is a competent NHL coach, which is another discussion on these boards)

As it stands right now, I highly doubt we make it out of the East.

* Disclaimer: I realize we're still a fair bit away from the trade-deadline and I have my fingers crossed.

​

 

[Allie Kitsune]

I don't want to defend the Pollyannas, but I do have to wonder.

Just how much less per year are Toews/Kane making than Sid/Geno?

Because I'm fairly sure there's no way we could afford Sharp and Hossa in our top six.

What would REALLY sting is if LA gets their crap together, and Richards/Carter (yeah, I know, they make less too...) end up with more cups than Sid/Geno.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

I don't want to defend the Pollyannas, but I do have to wonder.

Just how much less per year are Toews/Kane making than Sid/Geno?

Because I'm fairly sure there's no way we could afford Sharp and Hossa in our top six.

What would REALLY sting is if LA gets their crap together, and Richards/Carter (yeah, I know, they make less too...) end up with more cups than Sid/Geno.

I'm in the middle of all of this, but we had the team on paper to win it all last year. I agree that the cap is now affecting us but for hawks to get 2 cups before us should not have happened. We have one year we can use the injury excuse, but should have been able to win 1 cup out of the other 3 years. Cap wasn't affecting us then. We had the talent.

I blame some of it on coaching, but the players have been like Rocky in the 3rd movie.

 

[ArcticFox]

First time poster here.

I hope you post more in the future

I'm with you on everything, except one point: Orpik. Give the guy a break he's worn out and his hockey intelligence is not what it used to be. Not that he was ever a genious but it was not a problem as long as his physique was top notch: but he's lost the energy and drive of old days past. I love Brooks and he's an all-time great Pen already. But the fact is this is a team that is looking to compete for the Cup itself.
This is not the old Pens with limited ambitions that were happy just to get into the playoffs. As such it needs to be built to so that the roster is on the same level of ambition. Unfortunately Brooks just is not a guy that fits in anymore.

It would be best for both parties to ship him to a team that is looking for some experienced leadership and has a playstyle that doesn't require too much exhertion from a stay at home defender.
I don't think he's happy being a misfit on a team that is all about immense energy and skill that plays a very "immediate" game.

Otherwise I agree: gritty guys and roleplayers on the Pens get way too much flak. It's like everyone truly believes we can have a fantasy team where the worst player we have on the fourth line would be Alexander Steen. I've been there when the franchise looked completely done and as good as gone, we need to appreciate what we have now as fans. But not to the point where we look past a players fit/contribution because of his name and past with the team.

Peace out.

 

[Trepanated]

I used to read here daily, and post regularly. Now I read rarely and post almost never. I'm in no way special, but here's my long take. Probably too long to care about.

1. There's nothing to discuss in the off-season. When I started posting, the Pens were up and coming and the playoffs were an aspiration instead of a certainty. Back then, I remember the summers getting a little chippy because there's not enough to discuss. You can go around and around about line combos but when there are no games being played, your theories don't get tested. People who disagree get testy because there's no evidence to settle disputes.

Now the Pens are good enough that the same attitude is in effect. They'll make the playoffs in a walk and no one considers it especially interesting. The questions about this team are all about how they'll do when crunch time comes. It's not possible for the regular season to offer any evidence in this regard, so people who disagree about whether the Pens will win a Cup with Fleury in goal or Bylsma behind the bench spend 82 games getting snippy with each other. Boring!

2. Lack of nuance, profusion of false dichotomies. The glass-half-full types divide the world into 2 camps, the Realists (themselves) and the Grumpy Cynics (all those who complain about everything). The glass-half-empty types divide the world into 2 camps, the Realists (themselves), and the Fanboys. The best thing about this board used to be not just the range of opinion about the team and what should be done, but the widespread recognition that opinion exists on a range. Now it's just a bunch of people talking past each other, and this thread is a fantastic example. Posts like "I can't wait to bump this when the Penguins get knocked out of the playoffs" are useless. Complete waste of space and time. Everyone, everyone, including the "Fanboys", is nervous about how things will go in the playoffs. If the Pens win the Cup, it doesn't mean the criticisms about the play of Orpik and Adams were invalid -- those guys have been putrid. If the Pens don't win, it doesn't mean Shero or Bylsma or Letang or Fleury aren't capable of doing so ever again.

3. Reading from a script. Someone said it's not that they lose, it's how they lose. Nope, that's not the problem with the boards. When the Pens play badly and lose, no one's going to object to people analyzing the problems. The problems on this board come when the Pens win, even in dominant fashion, and still the response you see in the PGT is a bunch of, "that's nice, but Bylsma is still an idiot and he will blow it in the playoffs because GLADAMS." I'm all for having a measured response to both wins and losses. Criticism isn't out of bounds even in a dominant win. But there are a few very vocal posters around here who seem to have a script, and they are BY GOD going to stick to it regardless of what happens on the ice. Boring! There are still some good posters, but they are getting drowned out by people who see everyone and everything with the team as love 'em or hate 'em. In truth, Bylsma is a very good coach who has at times had difficulty making tactical adjustments against certain kinds of teams. Letang is an outstanding defenseman who is prone to mental errors and poor decisions, and who was likely hurt by a lack of training camp time. Shero is one of the top GMs in the league but has made a number of decisions that didn't pan out well. You just don't see enough of that kind of analysis in the vast middle ground between "Letang for Norris!" and "Trade Lestink!"

4. It ain't a computer game. There are human factors involved. Many people saw Bylsma fail to put Iginla on Sid's right wing and have thought no more deeply about the situation than to say "Bylsma is a moron." From the outside that makes sense, but is it possible that Sid told the coach he wanted to keep Dupuis? He has a distinct preference for playing with fast wingers. There were rumors to that effect. Is it possible that the situation was more complicated and nuanced than Bylsma being a moron? (Note: Bylsma is not a moron. Likewise, Orpik's performance has been totally undefendable in my view, but he wears an A. You frequently see him slammed for "do as I say, not as I do" leadership. A lot of that's probably fair. But gosh, is it possible that people with actual behind the scenes knowledge find his leadership in the room valuable? Is it possible that his departure would leave a bigger leadership void on defense than the posters here realize? Well, I don't know. And neither do most of you, I suspect.

Wow, look how much I wrote. Sorry, I better stop now.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

There's nothing to discuss in the off-season, really? There's an entire ROSTER to discuss. There's all sorts of CHANGE to discuss.

Honestly, there's more to discuss in the off-season than during the season, imo. During the season, there is time that needs to be allotted to actually watch hockey. In the off-season, there isn't.

I don't get this point at all.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Can we change the thread title to "The Thread of Condescension"? Because that's what it is, from both sides.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I used to read here daily, and post regularly. Now I read rarely and post almost never. I'm in no way special, but here's my long take. Probably too long to care about.

1. There's nothing to discuss in the off-season. When I started posting, the Pens were up and coming and the playoffs were an aspiration instead of a certainty. Back then, I remember the summers getting a little chippy because there's not enough to discuss. You can go around and around about line combos but when there are no games being played, your theories don't get tested. People who disagree get testy because there's no evidence to settle disputes.

Now the Pens are good enough that the same attitude is in effect. They'll make the playoffs in a walk and no one considers it especially interesting. The questions about this team are all about how they'll do when crunch time comes. It's not possible for the regular season to offer any evidence in this regard, so people who disagree about whether the Pens will win a Cup with Fleury in goal or Bylsma behind the bench spend 82 games getting snippy with each other. Boring!

2. Lack of nuance, profusion of false dichotomies. The glass-half-full types divide the world into 2 camps, the Realists (themselves) and the Grumpy Cynics (all those who complain about everything). The glass-half-empty types divide the world into 2 camps, the Realists (themselves), and the Fanboys. The best thing about this board used to be not just the range of opinion about the team and what should be done, but the widespread recognition that opinion exists on a range. Now it's just a bunch of people talking past each other, and this thread is a fantastic example. Posts like "I can't wait to bump this when the Penguins get knocked out of the playoffs" are useless. Complete waste of space and time. Everyone, everyone, including the "Fanboys", is nervous about how things will go in the playoffs. If the Pens win the Cup, it doesn't mean the criticisms about the play of Orpik and Adams were invalid -- those guys have been putrid. If the Pens don't win, it doesn't mean Shero or Bylsma or Letang or Fleury aren't capable of doing so ever again.

3. Reading from a script. Someone said it's not that they lose, it's how they lose. Nope, that's not the problem with the boards. When the Pens play badly and lose, no one's going to object to people analyzing the problems. The problems on this board come when the Pens win, even in dominant fashion, and still the response you see in the PGT is a bunch of, "that's nice, but Bylsma is still an idiot and he will blow it in the playoffs because GLADAMS." I'm all for having a measured response to both wins and losses. Criticism isn't out of bounds even in a dominant win. But there are a few very vocal posters around here who seem to have a script, and they are BY GOD going to stick to it regardless of what happens on the ice. Boring! There are still some good posters, but they are getting drowned out by people who see everyone and everything with the team as love 'em or hate 'em. In truth, Bylsma is a very good coach who has at times had difficulty making tactical adjustments against certain kinds of teams. Letang is an outstanding defenseman who is prone to mental errors and poor decisions, and who was likely hurt by a lack of training camp time. Shero is one of the top GMs in the league but has made a number of decisions that didn't pan out well. You just don't see enough of that kind of analysis in the vast middle ground between "Letang for Norris!" and "Trade Lestink!"

4. It ain't a computer game. There are human factors involved. Many people saw Bylsma fail to put Iginla on Sid's right wing and have thought no more deeply about the situation than to say "Bylsma is a moron." From the outside that makes sense, but is it possible that Sid told the coach he wanted to keep Dupuis? He has a distinct preference for playing with fast wingers. There were rumors to that effect. Is it possible that the situation was more complicated and nuanced than Bylsma being a moron? (Note: Bylsma is not a moron. Likewise, Orpik's performance has been totally undefendable in my view, but he wears an A. You frequently see him slammed for "do as I say, not as I do" leadership. A lot of that's probably fair. But gosh, is it possible that people with actual behind the scenes knowledge find his leadership in the room valuable? Is it possible that his departure would leave a bigger leadership void on defense than the posters here realize? Well, I don't know. And neither do most of you, I suspect.

Wow, look how much I wrote. Sorry, I better stop now.

As you point out, nothing much goes on in the off-season, so people get to be repetitive. Because, as you point out all you can talk about is line combos and until the season begins no one can prove anything.

Ever consider that the same thing goes on in the regular season?

Bylsma/Fleury/Gladams sucks, the Pens will never win in the playoffs! Nah Uh! Your mother! Neener Neener!

How does that differ?

Yeah we have games to duscuss, which provides some other fodder, but really how much? No one can prove a thing until the playoffs so naturally we go in the same circles we have in the off-season.

And some of you are complaining because the content is stale? The material by its very nature is repetitive.

Sports are entertaining because it encourages griping. Repetitive griping. My best memories of my grandfather were the same complaints year after year about those damn Steel-ahs.

This site's constant complaining about complaining is driving more into a constant state of ennui.

 

[Trepanated]

There's nothing to discuss in the off-season, really? There's an entire ROSTER to discuss. There's all sorts of CHANGE to discuss.

Honestly, there's more to discuss in the off-season than during the season, imo. During the season, there is time that needs to be allotted to actually watch hockey. In the off-season, there isn't.

I don't get this point at all.

Of course there is plenty to discuss in the off-season. The point is to do with feedback mechanisms for differences of opinion, and the impact on how disagreements play out. Let's say you and I disagree on whether player A or player B should be on Crosby's right wing. In the offseason, no games are being played, and there's no new evidence coming in on who may be right. Opinions are not falsifiable. They become entrenched. People get snippy and rude. In the regular season, games are being played and evidence is coming in about how different guys do with Crosby. We can still disagree but we can have a more productive discussion.

The point I was making is that where once we could have disagreements about how the regular season would play out, now we're all focused on the playoffs. If there were bitter feuds at the beginning of the season about whether the Pens would win the Metro, we'd have abundant evidence coming in about who was right. But that's now where the disagreement is.

The disagreements now are about things like whether MAF is a playoff goalie, or whether Byslma is good enough to in a cup. No matter what your opinions are on those issues, the regular season cannot possibly falsify your theory. If you support MAF you will see his overall good play as evidence that he has the quality to win another Cup; if you think he's mentally weak you'll say "Who cares, he'll still melt down in the playoffs." There is no evidence coming in about who is right. It's not possible. No one's opinion about it is falsifiable (yet). It becomes a holy war. People get snippy.

Same with Bylsma. Same with Shero. Etc.

 

[Trepanated]

As you point out, nothing much goes on in the off-season, so people get to be repetitive. Because, as you point out all you can talk about is line combos and until the season begins no one can prove anything.

Ever consider that the same thing goes on in the regular season?

I am baffled by this response. That was precisely my point. All the stuff I wrote about the off-season was prologue; it was setting up the analogy that the situation is the same now, only with the regular season. And then you ask me if I ever considered it? I just got done saying it!

 

[Lomez]

Superb post by Trepanated. At risk of being redundant, the thing that disappoints me most about this site recently is that there used to be many posters that I really enjoyed reading. They were insightful, thoughtful, and interesting.

Now, I refer to the site to get news, so I don't have to cull through twitter, other sites, etc., to get information.

Other than that, the site is simply boring; there are no more than four or five regular posters I even bother to read. The rest is just white noise.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I am baffled by this response. That was precisely my point. All the stuff I wrote about the off-season was prologue; it was setting up the analogy that the situation is the same now, only with the regular season. And then you ask me if I ever considered it? I just got done saying it!

I missed that you were making an analogy, but it doesn't change the point.

Yeah, people are repetitive. Especially sports fans. Because there is only so much new to say or comment on regarding games or potential trades or line combos.

So what?

This site wouldn't exist if it only contained new original analysis. It would have two posts a day in two total threads.

I don't get the complaining. It seems to be very unrealistic. What alternative are some of you calling for?

 

[Jaded-Fan]

As an aside, some of my favorite memories were of over the top bat-**** crazy rants and some of the posters who made them. My favorite threads were because of them. Route66 comes to mind first. The chick who wanted advice on how to hook up with Ryan Malone. Many others over the years.

I do come here for hockey analysis. We have some great posters for that. But I can get that with a Google search. I come for the personalities and discussion with people of similar interests as well.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I used to read here daily, and post regularly. Now I read rarely and post almost never. I'm in no way special, but here's my long take. Probably too long to care about.

1. There's nothing to discuss in the off-season. When I started posting, the Pens were up and coming and the playoffs were an aspiration instead of a certainty. Back then, I remember the summers getting a little chippy because there's not enough to discuss. You can go around and around about line combos but when there are no games being played, your theories don't get tested. People who disagree get testy because there's no evidence to settle disputes.

Now the Pens are good enough that the same attitude is in effect. They'll make the playoffs in a walk and no one considers it especially interesting. The questions about this team are all about how they'll do when crunch time comes. It's not possible for the regular season to offer any evidence in this regard, so people who disagree about whether the Pens will win a Cup with Fleury in goal or Bylsma behind the bench spend 82 games getting snippy with each other. Boring!

2. Lack of nuance, profusion of false dichotomies. The glass-half-full types divide the world into 2 camps, the Realists (themselves) and the Grumpy Cynics (all those who complain about everything). The glass-half-empty types divide the world into 2 camps, the Realists (themselves), and the Fanboys. The best thing about this board used to be not just the range of opinion about the team and what should be done, but the widespread recognition that opinion exists on a range. Now it's just a bunch of people talking past each other, and this thread is a fantastic example. Posts like "I can't wait to bump this when the Penguins get knocked out of the playoffs" are useless. Complete waste of space and time. Everyone, everyone, including the "Fanboys", is nervous about how things will go in the playoffs. If the Pens win the Cup, it doesn't mean the criticisms about the play of Orpik and Adams were invalid -- those guys have been putrid. If the Pens don't win, it doesn't mean Shero or Bylsma or Letang or Fleury aren't capable of doing so ever again.

3. Reading from a script. Someone said it's not that they lose, it's how they lose. Nope, that's not the problem with the boards. When the Pens play badly and lose, no one's going to object to people analyzing the problems. The problems on this board come when the Pens win, even in dominant fashion, and still the response you see in the PGT is a bunch of, "that's nice, but Bylsma is still an idiot and he will blow it in the playoffs because GLADAMS." I'm all for having a measured response to both wins and losses. Criticism isn't out of bounds even in a dominant win. But there are a few very vocal posters around here who seem to have a script, and they are BY GOD going to stick to it regardless of what happens on the ice. Boring! There are still some good posters, but they are getting drowned out by people who see everyone and everything with the team as love 'em or hate 'em. In truth, Bylsma is a very good coach who has at times had difficulty making tactical adjustments against certain kinds of teams. Letang is an outstanding defenseman who is prone to mental errors and poor decisions, and who was likely hurt by a lack of training camp time. Shero is one of the top GMs in the league but has made a number of decisions that didn't pan out well. You just don't see enough of that kind of analysis in the vast middle ground between "Letang for Norris!" and "Trade Lestink!"

4. It ain't a computer game. There are human factors involved. Many people saw Bylsma fail to put Iginla on Sid's right wing and have thought no more deeply about the situation than to say "Bylsma is a moron." From the outside that makes sense, but is it possible that Sid told the coach he wanted to keep Dupuis? He has a distinct preference for playing with fast wingers. There were rumors to that effect. Is it possible that the situation was more complicated and nuanced than Bylsma being a moron? (Note: Bylsma is not a moron. Likewise, Orpik's performance has been totally undefendable in my view, but he wears an A. You frequently see him slammed for "do as I say, not as I do" leadership. A lot of that's probably fair. But gosh, is it possible that people with actual behind the scenes knowledge find his leadership in the room valuable? Is it possible that his departure would leave a bigger leadership void on defense than the posters here realize? Well, I don't know. And neither do most of you, I suspect.

Wow, look how much I wrote. Sorry, I better stop now.

Generally speaking, I think there's a lot more negativity than the on-ice product warrants, but that's a consequence of the sweep last year.

Like you said, everybody's worried about the playoffs. We all understand that the regular season isn't going to dispel doubts about Byslma/Fleury/our performance against dedicated defensive teams in the playoffs no matter how they fare before April 16th. Unfortunately, that's taking a lot of the fun of the journey away.

I just enjoy watching hockey played at a high level, faults and all. Fair criticism is one thing, but it seems a bit masochistic to fixate on and be consumed by problems for 82 games a year plus playoffs and only find joy in NHL hockey for the split second when Bettman hands Crosby the Cup. That's the ultimate goal, but there's something to be said for relishing the smaller victories along the way too. It's okay to feel good about the Pens handing a big bad WC team their *****, even if it's only the regular season.

But to each his own. Not really my business how somebody wants to watch the game.