Discouraged Pens Faithful

[KIRK]

If you go into a PGT after Orpik/Adams/Glass plays a terrible game don't be surprised to see people *****ing about them.

This thread has moved me. From now on, after every Penguins game, no matter how many trends are repeated, no matter who Bylsma puts on Sid's RW, no matter how many times Orpik gets walked or Letang ***** up a PP, I'm going to play the glad game . . .



Yeah, Craig Adams is a broken down fossil, but I'm glad Brunei has a connection to the NHL.

Yeah, Bylsma puts out Gladams for a defensive zone faceoff with a minute left in a one goal game, but I'm glad Fleury gets the extra work.

Yeah, the Pens lack of defensive structure and execution is disconcerting, but I'm glad the Pens leave me entertained almost every game.

Somehow, I feel . . . better, more grateful for this new perspective.

 

[Iron Mike]

Everyone on this board has a right to express themselves however they want. I look at is as this team has massively under performed the past few postseasons and the posters here can express frustration any way they want. In many ways it is a defense mechanism. I am more leery about buying into this team because I don't want to be hurt again like I have been the past 4 payoffs. There are many others in the same boat. People have a right to expect more from this team than they would from a team like Calgary or Buffalo. My biggest fear is looking back on the current generation and thinking about what could have been.

I am personally sick of the "don't bash on your team's players" argument. They make millions of dollars to play a game. Criticism comes with the territory and I will never feel bad for doing it or listening to it. Certain individuals in this organization deserve the criticism they are getting. We as fans can't tell the players and coaches what we think, so we "vent" here. It doesn't make us any less of fans. The fact we care so much is a good thing. The day people stop getting mad about failure is a bad day because it means apathy has set in.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Why does this need its own thread? There's a certain irony in making a thread to complain about negativity. And news flash, it's the internet, people are generally negative on it. That's the best part. In depth discussion is usually about the negative parts of something, the negatives are also a massive part of this team right now. You don't have to be on a board you don't like the attitude of, seriously, find one you do like; don't try and turn this one into what you want it to be. People who are overly optimistic are incredibly annoying, too.

My issue is the reaction to failure, that's the problem.

 

[Freeptop]

This point often seems to get lost in the "you're not real fans if you dare criticize the team" rah! rah! parade.

As opposed to the "you're not real fans if you don't want Bylsma fired" echo chamber that much of these boards have become...

Even if one wants to critique the team and find faults with Bylsma, if one doesn't want to fire Bylsma and Shero now, then that person gets called a shill for the Pens' PR machine, or something similar.

Besides, is it really criticism to simply post the "smug Bylsma" picture in response to literally any query as to what went wrong in a game? That's not critical analysis, that's just more "rah rah" parade, only for the opposite viewpoint.

As with most things, reality generally lies between the extremes being argued. Unfortunately, it feels like entirely too many vocal people have decided there are sides to be fought for, rather than opinions to be discussed.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

As opposed to the "you're not real fans if you don't want Bylsma fired" echo chamber that much of these boards have become....

The difference is, I don't see those who dislike Bylsma calling those that do "not real fans". We may disagree, and we may be incredulous that folks can still defend Bylsma. But the "you're spoiled" or "you're not real fans" comments come from those who are pro-team toward those who dare criticize.

 

[KIRK]

As opposed to the "you're not real fans if you don't want Bylsma fired" echo chamber that much of these boards have become...

Even if one wants to critique the team and find faults with Bylsma, if one doesn't want to fire Bylsma and Shero now, then that person gets called a shill for the Pens' PR machine, or something similar.

Besides, is it really criticism to simply post the "smug Bylsma" picture in response to literally any query as to what went wrong in a game? That's not critical analysis, that's just more "rah rah" parade, only for the opposite viewpoint.

As with most things, reality generally lies between the extremes being argued. Unfortunately, it feels like entirely too many vocal people have decided there are sides to be fought for, rather than opinions to be discussed.

Exactly, why just the other day, in another of our heated discussions about Bylsma, I called RRP a 'shill for the Pens PR machine'. Oh wait . . .

The difference is, I don't see those who dislike Bylsma calling those that do "not real fans". We may disagree, and we may be incredulous that folks can still defend Bylsma. But the "you're spoiled" or "you're not real fans" comments come from those who are pro-team toward those who dare criticize.

Well, yeah, but aside from that, it's exactly the same.

 

[Al Smith]

Leblond is a good fourth line player. He is not a liability on the ice. I was impressed with his performance against Washington, he had a good scoring chance during that game. Leblond knows his role, and is willing to drop the gloves against any player.

He definitely knows his role and is willing to drop the gloves. I'd disagree that he's a good fourth line player - if he were he'd have played more than 6 or 7 NHL games in the last 3 or 4 seasons. I'd also say he is a liability (mainly his PM) on the ice, but for different reasons than Adams is a liability on the ice. And I doubt PL3 does much work on the PK, but I may be wrong there.

 

[Ogrezilla]

As opposed to the "you're not real fans if you don't want Bylsma fired" echo chamber that much of these boards have become...

I've never seen anyone's fandom questioned in that direction. The only person I have ever questioned in this sense is TTEoT, and he will openly admit that he's a bigger Crosby fan than a Penguins fan.

 

[Frederick Stanley]

Different people have different views on things. This thread doesn't have much potential.

 

[Frederick Stanley]

Thread is open again.

Maybe it'll help to get some perspective.

 

[Darth Vitale]

It bears repeating IMO, that there are many people in here who think this team is better than it is, because we have Sid, Geno, Neal, and Letang. We're a GOOD team (not great or anything approximate), with a system that's designed to quickly integrate AHL call-ups during injury situations, that often looks really good against certain teams. Our special teams are really good much of the time but 5 on 5 we're far from an excellent team (if you average the effectiveness of all 4 lines), and our forward depth is actually pretty bad (even when we're healthy).

The problem is one of expectations. Someone said it earlier "we expect a lot so we're justified". You're not justified (none of us are because I get pulled into the negativity vortex just like everyone else -- the negativity is infectious and we tend to feed off one another), if the expectation is not reasonable based on the reality of the roster, system, and competition.

Also our division is putrid this year so you can throw our record out the window when gauging quality by number of wins. That's one area I disagree with the OP. We'd be an average team if we have to play Chicago, STL, Dallas etc 5x a year and LA, SJ, ANA 3-4x a year etc, and we'd be stuck right in the middle of the standings most likely. 5-6-7-ish.

I could be wrong but I think sometimes your Pittsburgh Pride gets the better of some folks, and you project a level of excellence onto this team or what you expect from it, that is not realistic right now. Who knows, maybe Shero works some magic and it becomes a more realistic thing in a month but right now it's not.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

It bears repeating IMO, that there are many people in here who think this team is better than it is, because we have Sid, Geno, Neal, and Letang. We're a GOOD team (not great or anything approximate), with a system that's designed to quickly integrate AHL call-ups during injury situations, that often looks really good against certain teams. Our special teams are really good much of the time but 5 on 5 we're far from an excellent team (if you average the effectiveness of all 4 lines), and our forward depth is actually pretty bad (even when we're healthy).

The problem is one of expectations. Someone said it earlier "we expect a lot so we're justified". You're not justified (none of us are because I get pulled into the negativity vortex just like everyone else -- the negativity is infectious and we tend to feed off one another), if the expectation is not reasonable based on the reality of the roster, system, and competition.

Also our division is putrid this year so you can throw our record out the window when gauging quality by number of wins. That's one area I disagree with the OP. We'd be an average team if we have to play Chicago, STL, Dallas etc 5x a year and LA, SJ, ANA 3-4x a year etc, and we'd be stuck right in the middle of the standings most likely. 5-6-7-ish.

I could be wrong but I think sometimes your Pittsburgh Pride gets the better of some folks, and you project a level of excellence onto this team or what you expect from it, that is not realistic right now. Who knows, maybe Shero works some magic and it becomes a more realistic thing in a month but right now it's not.

'...that often looks really good against certain teams.'


That has been the major problem.

Look, no team will be built that is perfect for every other team. There are teams that can look not too bad against all the different types of teams out there, be they physical, speed, trap, offense first, whatever. But no team is built to be perfect against every type of team out there.

The Pens, as constructed, are going to have trouble with teams who trap, they always have, teams with speed, and teams smart enough to take Crosby and Malkin away and dare Kunitz, Neal, and Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb to beat them.

But that is not the only factor.

The Pens are built for success in the regular season. The playoffs are an entirely different animal. PP opportunities are half what they are in the regular season, and related to that, the refs let teams get away with murder. The Pens just are not constructed for that kind of game, ever since the Isle idiocy, and Mario instituted Operation p***yfication of the team when he got called out for speaking for the first time since he retired.

The long and short of it is this team is a mess that you can not fix at the deadline. It will take some major surgery this offseason to fix the issues that certainly are going to come up and keep this team down in the playoffs.

 

[Ogrezilla]

there are no fewer powerplays in the playoffs than there are in the regular season. Last year, the league average was 3.3 powerplay opportunities per game in the regular season and 3.4 powerplay opportunities per game in the playoffs.

There are, however, more penalties being committed that go uncalled. Teams cheat more in the playoffs. That's the part we are no longer built for.

 

[MrBurghundy]

there are no fewer powerplays in the playoffs than there are in the regular season. Last year, the league average was 3.3 powerplay opportunities per game in the regular season and 3.4 powerplay opportunities per game in the playoffs.

There are, however, more penalties being committed that go uncalled. Teams cheat more in the playoffs. That's the part we are no longer built for.

Well we have some players that would excel in playoff style hockey in Despres and Bortuzzo, but...

 

[Ogrezilla]

Well we have some players that would excel in playoff style hockey in Despres and Bortuzzo, but...

 

[McDrailers]

Good given talent of Crosby and Malkin / = / Bylsma being a good coach. As for Shero, eh he's made some good moves and some awful moves. He's neutral in my mind.

As for our 4th line. Most of it is AHL Calibre. Yes they've won a cup blah blah so did Kevin Lowe. It's easy to rid the coattails of people who are amazing at the sport. Without Crosby falling into the Penguins hand this team wouldn't have sniffed at the cup doesn't matter who was coaching and it really doesn't now. If Crosby goes down for the year this team is going down in a disaster horrific fashion

 

[MrBurghundy]

 

[Jaded-Fan]

there are no fewer powerplays in the playoffs than there are in the regular season. Last year, the league average was 3.3 powerplay opportunities per game in the regular season and 3.4 powerplay opportunities per game in the playoffs.

There are, however, more penalties being committed that go uncalled. Teams cheat more in the playoffs. That's the part we are no longer built for.

Powerplays overall are down:

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-hockey/22167901/goal-scoring-declines-in-the-nhl-again

And Powerplays are consistently lower, with very rare exceptions, in the playoffs:

http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_GoalsPerGame.php

 

[Ogrezilla]

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-hockey/22167901/goal-scoring-declines-in-the-nhl-again

I don't think that graph shows what you think it shows.

There are less powerplays today than there were in years past, that's true. But its just as true in the regular season as the playoffs. You said we are built for the regular season in part because there are less powerplays in the playoffs. That's simply not the case.

The Pens are built for success in the regular season. The playoffs are an entirely different animal. PP opportunities are half what they are in the regular season, and related to that, the refs let teams get away with murder.

The bold is blatantly false. There were actually slightly more powerplays per game in last year's playoffs than in last year's regular season.

Here, I made a graph. Hopefully this helps.

 

[nhindian]

Guys, I was born with a hockey stick in my hands and **** hockey pucks in my diapers. Clearly my opinion is better and more informed than yours, you ungrateful spoiled losers.

Another quality MrBurgundy post!

This time, filled with irony, or a complete lack of self-awareness!

 

[Ziggyjoe21]

My favorite is when the Pens win it is because the players played well despite Bylsma's incompetence and DB had nothing to do with it. If they lose it is 100% Bylsma's fault and he made the team play bad.

 

[Ziggyjoe21]

It bears repeating IMO, that there are many people in here who think this team is better than it is, because we have Sid, Geno, Neal, and Letang. We're a GOOD team (not great or anything approximate), with a system that's designed to quickly integrate AHL call-ups during injury situations, that often looks really good against certain teams. Our special teams are really good much of the time but 5 on 5 we're far from an excellent team (if you average the effectiveness of all 4 lines), and our forward depth is actually pretty bad (even when we're healthy).

The problem is one of expectations. Someone said it earlier "we expect a lot so we're justified". You're not justified (none of us are because I get pulled into the negativity vortex just like everyone else -- the negativity is infectious and we tend to feed off one another), if the expectation is not reasonable based on the reality of the roster, system, and competition.

Also our division is putrid this year so you can throw our record out the window when gauging quality by number of wins. That's one area I disagree with the OP. We'd be an average team if we have to play Chicago, STL, Dallas etc 5x a year and LA, SJ, ANA 3-4x a year etc, and we'd be stuck right in the middle of the standings most likely. 5-6-7-ish.

I could be wrong but I think sometimes your Pittsburgh Pride gets the better of some folks, and you project a level of excellence onto this team or what you expect from it, that is not realistic right now. Who knows, maybe Shero works some magic and it becomes a more realistic thing in a month but right now it's not.

Obviously any team's record would get worse if they played against the best teams every game. However, if you're saying the Pens would be a mediocre team if they played in the western conference then I disagree completely.

Pens are 10-3-1 against the west this season, and 13-2-3 two seasons ago (there were no inter conference games last season). Pens consistently beat the top teams, including a win over Aneheim this season.

The Pens are an elite team during the regular season any way you cut it. This is why the expectations are so high.

 

[mpp9]

I don't think anyone could possibly argue we're not an elite team in your regular season.

Ill believe we're an elite team in the playoffs when we consistently get our stars to play smart hockey when we're healthy. That's DB's test this year. As well as our stars'.

 

[MtlPenFan]

I'm critical because A) I want them to win and B) Because the Penguins PR machine continues to speak to me like I'm a child. If I didn't know any better, I'd think the OP was Rorabaugh or Yohe or one of the other pom-pom waivers.

I complain because I don't like being told by the cheerleaders that Orpik is awesome when he's become a liability.

I complain because I don't like being told by the cheerleaders that Letang is a PP QB. when he clearly isn't.

I complain because I don't like being told by the cheerleaders that Adams and Glass are invaluable because they're "gritty" and kill penalties. I'm more concerned about their board play and puck possession 5 on 5, which is often brutal.


I also complain because our 2nd most promising young defenseman in Despres is being jerked around because he needs to learn how to play defense, when 2/3 of the guys taking his place are actually the ones who need to learn.

I also complain because our coach, who should have seen his extension as a new lease on life, actually used his extension as some sort of validation for his stubbornness that should have gotten him fired to begin with. Kobasew on the 1st line for instance when there are younger, faster options available.

Last but not least, I complain because I don't care about results so much as I do the process. They've lost a handful of games the last 2 months, which is awesome, but how often are you impressed by the PROCESS rather than the final score?

Christ, even against Buffalo they were lucky that the Sabres don't have any finishers. What it comes down to in the end is that this team doesn't dominate any games. The Habs game last week, the 4-0 game in Washington, the 5-1 win in Florida and the shutout in Tampa, and maybe a couple of others I can think of where the Pens were just the flat out better team.

The rest of the time? It's the Pens simply having more top end talent capable of finishing on opportunities, and that's pretty much it.

What it comes down to is I HATE seeing stupid hockey. Not just when the Pens play it, but other teams as well. All I see is the same players and same coaches making the same mistakes over and over again.

 

[Shady Machine]

Personally, I'd like to see the OP come back and address a few of the responses he/she have gotten. Welcoming yourself to the boards by criticizing people for criticizing and then peacing out isn't the best way to get your point across.