Dion Phaneuf - "There is a Trade Market for Him" (Dreger)

[Nithoniniel]

Is it now I should say I told you so? Feels like I am done discussing Phaneuf. If people needed 5 seasons to realize what kind of player he is then is it really worth discussing anything?

Feels like most people are just interested in drinking the cool aid instead of trying to look at things with neautral eyes. You can actually do that and still be a fan of the franchise, club. After all, it is the Maple Leaf I support and if the player wearing it does not perform or live up to the expectations of wearing it then it should be pointed out.

"Burke is building a playoff team, those picks will be in the 20´s"...
No they will not, this is one of the worst teams in the league who dont have a #1 center, #1 defender, no captain and qustionanle goalie situation. Those teams dont trade first rounders for a one way goal scoring winger and they dont make the playoffs.

"Stajan or anyother of our players have really improved their game just look at their numbers"
No, a team who dont hold players accountable for sloppy defensive play will have players inflating their number by cheating on the ice to get offensive advantages. On other teams these guys would put up numbers like a 3rd liner, on our team they get numbers of really good 2nd liners or ok 1st liners. But their +- will not be good. But afterall that stats is useless...

"Goalies always become bad in Toronto"
No, not really. But goalies are always left alone with out support in Toronto because the rest of the team are trying to get better offensive numbers. And that we never seem to play anything else then run and gun and not a system who takes a good defensive in mind we will never be able insulate a goalie who is having a bad day.

"We will make the playoffs this season (09-10, 10-11, 11-12 etc")
No we will not. We have a team built the wrong way who lacks character and leadership and good players in key positions and only good players in complimantary positions. Sure, we made the playoffs in a shortened season but despite what some say, we did not play nearly as good as most other playoffs teams did. Being out hustled and out shot most every night. It was our crazy shooting percentage and some terrific goaltending that got us in to the playoffs.

"There is not just one way to build a team"
Well, actually there is more or less just variations of one way to build a team who can be successful. You need to focus on your teams defensive first of all. That means you have to sort out the goalie situation and your top 4 before you focus on anything else. Then you need to focus on a center for the first line and also have some good to great penelty killers. Every other way will fail.

And my favorite and why it is getting a bit tiresome to point out obvious things.

"Dion Phaneuf is a legit #1, easily top 20 in the league"
I have can agree that he for periods have looked ok some times even good. But he is just to slow both on his feet and mind to be an effective top player who can play 23+ minutes per night on a succesful team. To many questionable decisions, missed markings and sloppy passes to be considered a #1. And to pay some one like that $7m a year means you will have to pay the guy who is a #1 on your team even more. Some people just dont realize that or are just figuing it out.

Is being a fan really about having blind faith in who ever is leading your team both on and off the ice?

You've seemed bitter today, Johnny. What's up?

As for Dion, I'm not much for ranking D-men and like you say, I'm a fan of the team and not the players. He's overpaid, but not by how much you seem to imply. I don't think he's the guy we compete with as a #1, but I think he can be a good piece for such a team even at his price.

Some of the things you said is a bit odd as well. Building a team that is great defensively is of course crucial if you want to compete, but the order in which you build doesn't really matter. It's not like you are screwed if you got that fourth liner who is a great PKer first of all.

 

[hockeystick89]

I am far from only being critical. I just praise the players who I think deserves praise. The ones who works hard to improve them self and help the team in anyway they can. Be it a 1st liners or a 4th liners.

I am however unlike you not a fan of individual players but more team oriented. I have no problems with us trading anyone if it improves us long term.

Liar. You have a personal agenda against Dion, stop being so mean. He's elite, top 10 in the league and a stud.

Just kidding.

I've been saying the exact same thing as you for years. It's an endless cycle. But you're arguing with the type of people that wondered how we would ever replace the production of Alex Ponivarovsky or how Komisarek, Kubina, Beauchemin and Kaberle gave us "the best defence, on paper".

 

[zeke]

All the regular stats say Phaneuf is playing great. (lowest GA/60 on the team despite the toughest matchups....tons of minutes on a much improved PK...and hey, he leads the team with a plus 8!...)

All the advanced stats say Phaneuf is playing great (best cf% on the team of dmen who have played every game, beat only by his d partner franson overall).

The fact that Rick Nash, the hottest scorer in the league this year, made him look bad a couple of times is not a reason to think he's playing poorly.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

You've seemed bitter today, Johnny. What's up?

As for Dion, I'm not much for ranking D-men and like you say, I'm a fan of the team and not the players. He's overpaid, but not by how much you seem to imply. I don't think he's the guy we compete with as a #1, but I think he can be a good piece for such a team even at his price.

Some of the things you said is a bit odd as well. Building a team that is great defensively is of course crucial if you want to compete, but the order in which you build doesn't really matter. It's not like you are screwed if you got that fourth liner who is a great PKer first of all.

Well, I have had a really bad day.
But even so, I can get rather frustrated even on a good day visiting this forum, but the good posts I get to read do make up for it so I keep coming back.

Personally I am not so sure that you can have a player who is highly paid and who is also the captain on your team not being one you can count on in all situations through out the season. I dont really know how much of a leader he is or how well he or the other leaders manage to inspire the team before and during games. Some might think it is unimportant that the leaders can, I dont think so. Now, every leader dont have to be vocal leader, the best ones often are the ones who lead by example. But what kind of example is Dion setting with his play? Not a good one imo. He is simply not smart enough and physically he is no where near the player he was just a few years ago. He is starting to look more and more sluggish for every season that passes.

I do think he have been asked to do to much for the team, he on the other hand asked for the money he got. And by handing him that contract our GM said he was the guy he wanted to build our defense around.

Liar. You have a personal agenda against Dion, stop being so mean. He's elite, top 10 in the league and a stud.

Just kidding.

I've been saying the exact same thing as you for years. It's an endless cycle. But you're arguing with the type of people that wondered how we would ever replace the production of Alex Ponivarovsky or how Komisarek, Kubina, Beauchemin and Kaberle gave us "the best defence, on paper".

Yeah, that is exactly what I mean. It is not as if we have not had this kind of discussions before with other players who no one longer miss. When one productive player gets traded other players usually step up and produce better with more ice time and more offensive zone starts, PP time etc. It is not as if we would trade Kessel and the 80 goals or so he helps create would not be created anyway.
But perhaps the team then plays in a way so that they dont need those goals as badly. We scored more goals then Rangers, Montreal and LA last season. Only Chicago managed more goals then us of the 4 teams who made it to their conference finals. It is preventing goals that seem more important to focus on. Rangers (4th), LA (1st) and Montreal (8th) was in the top 10 for goals against last season, we where 26th (Chicago 12th).

Some fans seem more fans of certain star players and their production then the club and the teams results. I just dont get it. Lombardi traded away Demitra, Cammalleri, Stuart, Norstrom, Visnovski and a lot of other productive NHL players during a couple of years and LA become a better team in the end. Now Lombardi had a plan, a vision and he knew how he wanted the team to play and he knew what kind of players and what type of character was needed for it to work. Now the players he traded away was not bad characters or bad players but for different reasons they did not fit in long term.

Our two most recent GM´s how ever have preached one thing then done something completely different contradicting it.
I do think there is a lot to look forward to. I really like our recent years of drafting. There is a lot of leadership and determination in that prospect pool. And with Rielly and Nylander I do think we have two corner pieces we can actually build around. Both of them are hard workers, loads of hockey smarts and blessed with speed few others are. I view our team as in the beginning of a rebuild. A lot of changes is needed for it to become a team you can actually trust to get it done and a lot of darlings will have to be killed in the process. Team before individuals.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

Best dman on the team by far

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

He's garbage too. For being the best defenceman on the Team he does a pretty awful job at puck retrieval, is always chasing in the defensive end if he isn't covering the front of the net, and still makes simple plays a little tougher because he doesn't think the game at NHL level speeds. But you guys are right, he has simplified his game dramatically so that his deficiencies aren't exposed glaringly

 

[Al14]

I don't know why the fans only see the bad in Phaneuf.

He makes his mistakes, just like any defender out there, but he's been pretty good to me. Plays the toughest minutes by a long mile and usually does pretty well defensively.

Did you see Karlsson out there last night? Phaneuf had nowhere near that bad of a game.

It'd be nice if fans could actually have an unbiased image of Phaneuf. Seems like he never gets a fist bump when he does well but immediately gets crapped on hard when he makes a mistake or two.

Phaneuf is not worth his $7.0M cap hit! That's why!

I would be more than happy with Phaneuf as a #2-#3 D at $5.5M.

 

[Al14]

Best dman on the team by far

Well, when the Leafs are top 5 in the League... hell, even top 10, I'll give Phaneuf his due. Till then, he's not very good at making his team much better.

I have liked his play recently!

 

[Nithoniniel]

Well, I have had a really bad day.
But even so, I can get rather frustrated even on a good day visiting this forum, but the good posts I get to read do make up for it so I keep coming back.

Personally I am not so sure that you can have a player who is highly paid and who is also the captain on your team not being one you can count on in all situations through out the season. I dont really know how much of a leader he is or how well he or the other leaders manage to inspire the team before and during games. Some might think it is unimportant that the leaders can, I dont think so. Now, every leader dont have to be vocal leader, the best ones often are the ones who lead by example. But what kind of example is Dion setting with his play? Not a good one imo. He is simply not smart enough and physically he is no where near the player he was just a few years ago. He is starting to look more and more sluggish for every season that passes.

Hey I'm sorry to hear that. Hope tomorrow turns out better.

I'm one of those that don't concern myself overly much with captaincy and leadership, but I can respect that opinion.

To me, the trouble with Dion is that he's a bit of a 'jack of all trades, master of none'-player without being really good enough to be utilized like it at his price. For the team to be better, we might need to push him down in 5v5 minutes, in PK depth chart and in PP depth chart. We're already doing that by playing Gards and Franson on the first PP, and having Polak be our #1 PK guy. Gardiner has already become a more frequent 5v5 player as well.

Without having to do it all, he would be an awesome asset, except that he'd be paid for the role he had before that. And there's the conundrum. (and I'm way to tired to figure out if I used that word correctly.

 

[34]

Phaneuf = most overrated overpaid player in the league! Yes even more than Clarkson and that is bad.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Hey I'm sorry to hear that. Hope tomorrow turns out better.

I'm one of those that don't concern myself overly much with captaincy and leadership, but I can respect that opinion.

To me, the trouble with Dion is that he's a bit of a 'jack of all trades, master of none'-player without being really good enough to be utilized like it at his price. For the team to be better, we might need to push him down in 5v5 minutes, in PK depth chart and in PP depth chart. We're already doing that by playing Gards and Franson on the first PP, and having Polak be our #1 PK guy. Gardiner has already become a more frequent 5v5 player as well.

Without having to do it all, he would be an awesome asset, except that he'd be paid for the role he had before that. And there's the conundrum. (and I'm way to tired to figure out if I used that word correctly.

Ah thanks. I am sure it will get better.

Dion truly was better when he was more of an alpha and focused on the things he did do well, hitting and going forward. But I think it comes back to him not thinking the game at a high enough level to handle different roles. He must focus on a few things to be somewhat effective and even do I reckon he work hard to improve his game he simply dont have the talent for it. And some of the blame goes towards management who tried to shape him into a Scott Stevens kind of player when his upper limit is closer to McCabe.

Having said that, I do think he looks a little better this season. At least I see a bit more of a fire in him. Perhaps because he has simplified his game even more. And sometimes experience makes up for a lot of shortcomings in terms of hockey smarts.

 

[Hunter74]

I am a little up and down on Phaneuf this year. I liked his steady game to start last season better but then you see he still handles the really tough assignments rather well. Yeah Nash made him look bad on one play but other than that Dion was hard on him and kept him in check which is not easy to do as Nash is quite hot right now and a strong power forward.

I do not like the way the forwards utilize the defense (all our defensemen) in regards to offense. I find our forwards almost exclusively look for each other and try and try for down low plays or half wall plays rather than deflections off of point shots. I actually like Phaneuf better on the second PP as i find that 2nd PP unit to be a little more creative as they do not have the set Kessel play to conform to.

Very happy Polak is here to take on a lot of the heavy lifting in the defensive zone.

I still think Phaneuf needs to be more of a difference maker game in game out. Though I have seen good signs of Dion trying to get his old offensive game back but he has not clicked with the forwards yet.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Best dman on the team by far

I dont disagree with this sentiment at all..but it does show why the Leafs are what they are..and thats pretty mediocre. It also doesn't say much about the rest of the D the Leafs employ. Dion Phaneuf is the best D the Leafs have to offer.

The best of a bad bunch. He doesn't stack up very well against the best of the best however. But he is paid as such. Never been a fan of the guy and never will be, but the Leafs really have nothing better although Mr.Reilly may have something to say about that within the next few years.

 

[AustonMitchWilly]

Dion is relied on for defense now. Not Offense.

If we bring in defensive D, like we've tried to do, then he could play more offense.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Phaneuf = most overrated overpaid player in the league! Yes even more than Clarkson and that is bad.

I wouldnt go that far man...Clarkson love is a joke. Phaneuf may be paid a bit much but nowhere near the 3/4th liner that is David Clarkson.

This year Clarkson, isn't a total embarrassment and actually is contributing something other than comedy. Doesn't make him good or even competent.

At least Phaneuf shows signs of brilliance. Clarkson? Not so much.

 

[diceman934]

Hey I'm sorry to hear that. Hope tomorrow turns out better.

I'm one of those that don't concern myself overly much with captaincy and leadership, but I can respect that opinion.

To me, the trouble with Dion is that he's a bit of a 'jack of all trades, master of none'-player without being really good enough to be utilized like it at his price. For the team to be better, we might need to push him down in 5v5 minutes, in PK depth chart and in PP depth chart. We're already doing that by playing Gards and Franson on the first PP, and having Polak be our #1 PK guy. Gardiner has already become a more frequent 5v5 player as well.



Without having to do it all, he would be an awesome asset, except that he'd be paid for the role he had before that. And there's the conundrum. (and I'm way to tired to figure out if I used that word correctly.

He is currently the 58th most used D man 5 on 5 in the League using 10 games as a minimum,not much when you considered how much he is paid. Look at the list and it is a who's who of the top D man in the NHL.....they are all well above Dion.

Anyone who believes that he is not over paid by a big amount should look at this list.

He is not being asked to do it all. His coach knows that he is not capable of doing this.

His D zone starts is behind Rielly and Polak on the Leafs, so he is getting better Zone starts.

 

[Tyler Biggs*]

Dion is a +8, Subban -2.

 

[mcleex]

I am one of the biggest Phaneuf haters there is but he has been great the last 6-8 games, no complaints here.

And it's not that he is slow, he is physically capable of playing at a high level but he is extremely lazy. So lazy he is always getting beat by other players behind the net on the boards and we are stuck in a long cycle in our zone

 

[Nithoniniel]

He is currently the 58th most used D man 5 on 5 in the League using 10 games as a minimum,not much when you considered how much he is paid. Look at the list and it is a who's who of the top D man in the NHL.....they are all well above Dion.

Anyone who believes that he is not over paid by a big amount should look at this list.

He is not being asked to do it all. His coach knows that he is not capable of doing this.

His D zone starts is behind Rielly and Polak on the Leafs, so he is getting better Zone starts.

You are not really arguing against me here. I said that to be competitive we need to limit his role, and we are doing that just like you are saying here, and I said in the post you quoted.

We also paid him for the role he used to have, not the one he has now. Of course, the more we even out responsibility among our D-men the worse the contract gets, unless he starts to perform much better in that role. We've seen an increase in impact, but not enough to offset the more limited role.

Anyone who wants to consider whether Phaneuf is overpaid needs to look at a number of things, most notably the often overlooked RFA/UFA-status, and not just TOI in a league-wide comparison.

 

[Gary Nylund]

He is currently the 58th most used D man 5 on 5 in the League using 10 games as a minimum,not much when you considered how much he is paid. Look at the list and it is a who's who of the top D man in the NHL.....they are all well above Dion.

Anyone who believes that he is not over paid by a big amount should look at this list.

He is not being asked to do it all. His coach knows that he is not capable of doing this.

His D zone starts is behind Rielly and Polak on the Leafs, so he is getting better Zone starts.

I have this theory that your huge bias against Dion makes you post numbers that make him look bad, and ignore numbers that make him look good. I confirmed this theory just now by looking up his TOI which is 28th in the NHL as of right now on nhl.com.

I can't really give you too a hard time as this is what most posters do but meh, I dunno, maybe you should consider that if you kept an open mind, you might come to the conclusion that Dion is not as bad as you think. I mean (and please correct me if I'm wrong) I'm pretty sure you don't believe that PK and PP ice-time is somehow less relevant than 5 on 5 ice-time. If anything, I would think it's the other way around and the fact that including PK and PP ice-time makes him jump so much in TOI indicates that he is close the top in that category. I don't know where I can look that up so again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

You're actually not a bad poster IMO (if I ignore everything you post about Dion) but when it does come to Dion, yeah your posts are severely lacking in objectivity. I mean there is a huge difference between 28th and 58th and when 28th seems to the more relevant number yet you choose to post 58th to put him down that indicates that either you don't understand the numbers very well or have a strong anti-Dion agenda. I've seen enough of the posts to be sure that the latter is the case.

Just saying ...

 

[RLF]

Dion has benefitted from the move to his strong side.imo Much easier to move the puck and that was not a Dion strength to start with, so allowing him to be on the forehand more has helped. I hope his overall play and strong stats will finally put to rest that Dion prefers and needs to play the right side.

Although Franson may not be the best partner in a perfect world, I think it is best to allow Dion to play a solid positional game and pair him with a solid puck mover. I don't get concerned with Dion points because when he is trying to do too much is when he makes mistakes and simply put...is brutal. Let Franson move the puck and Dion be the safety valve.

I liked this pairing in pre-season and glad they went back to it...it's not perfect, but is our best option and Dion looks comfortable with Franson.imo

 

[diceman934]

I have this theory that your huge bias against Dion makes you post numbers that make him look bad, and ignore numbers that make him look good. I confirmed this theory just now by looking up his TOI which is 28th in the NHL as of right now on nhl.com.

I can't really give you too a hard time as this is what most posters do but meh, I dunno, maybe you should consider that if you kept an open mind, you might come to the conclusion that Dion is not as bad as you think. I mean (and please correct me if I'm wrong) I'm pretty sure you don't believe that PK and PP ice-time is somehow less relevant than 5 on 5 ice-time. If anything, I would think it's the other way around and the fact that including PK and PP ice-time makes him jump so much in TOI indicates that he is close the top in that category. I don't know where I can look that up so again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

You're actually not a bad poster IMO (if I ignore everything you post about Dion) but when it does come to Dion, yeah your posts are severely lacking in objectivity. I mean there is a huge difference between 28th and 58th and when 28th seems to the more relevant number yet you choose to post 58th to put him down that indicates that either you don't understand the numbers very well or have a strong anti-Dion agenda. I've seen enough of the posts to be sure that the latter is the case.

Just saying ...

I do not like Dion and do not hide this fact.....He is over paid no matter what you think of him as he is not among the elite in anything other than salary. I love the Leafs and to have this player wearing the C makes me cringe. Objectively speaking he has played well the last 7 games or so....yet he will not have a great season.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I do not like Dion and do not hide this fact.....He is over paid no matter what you think of him as he is not among the elite in anything other than salary. I love the Leafs and to have this player wearing the C makes me cringe. Objectively speaking he has played well the last 7 games or so....yet he will not have a great season.

Haha yeah, I'm well aware. Listen I know you hate the guy and nothing I say is going to change that (at least not in the near future). And you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I do want to say a couple of things though:

+- is a flawed stat but perhaps not totally useless. IIRC, that was a big part of why you said Gunnar was carrying Phaneuf last year - when they were apart, Gunnar's +- was better. Phaneuf now has the best +- on the team. If you put value on this stat last year, you would have to agree that he's looking pretty good so far would you not?

Theoretical question - what would Dion have to do to make you reconsider your position? I think he's around the 20th best d-man in the NHL, you said - I can't remember exactly - 40th and falling fast, something like that? If Dion we're to end the season with the best +- minus on the team would that give you pause? What if he was the best by far, say 5-10 better then the next guy?

Is there anything else he could do short of winning the Norris trophy to make you reconsider your position?

 

[rumman]

with his shot, it'd be nice if he could hit the net................

 

[Cor]

Phaneuf is great.

The hate he gets is ridiculous, comical, and slightly embarrassing