Dion Phaneuf Appreciation Thread

[achtungbaby]

Most 'realistic' Leaf fan understand that Phaneuf is going to get what Phaneuf wants, regardless if what we want. I don't wanna pay Kessel 8m either, but I'd rather we do it than someone else.

As for 'value', if the market determines that, Phaneuf at 7 will be well below value.

You say the market will determine his value then immediately say that 7 million will be well below it? Make up your mind man. . Or maybe you're just hedging your bets?

 

[notdoneyet]

Why don't you first tell me who we are letting go and why?

This notion that the increasing cap will allow us to buy our way out of our mistakes is naive to put it mildly. If the cap goes up 20% every single player out there will be wanting a 20% raise when their contracts expire. Have a look at all our players who's contract are up for renewal at the end of this season, then next season ... if you think a 15 million cap increase means we can keep all our guys and have extra 15 million to spend you're nuts. You are the guy who said that because of the cap increase signing guys will be "no problem" right?

And BTW, not once have I said I don't want to resign Dion. All I'm saying is I don't want to hand a blank cheque to anyone. It's other moves we've made like Clarkson for example that I am critical of.

By the way I never said a cap increase of 15M means we keep all our players and HAVE and extra 15M to spend, if you think that then your reading comprehension is nuts. What I said and still stick by is with what we have now and the cap increase its not impossible to get everyone who is vital to our success signed. ie Bolland(3.5M),Mclement(2M),Phaneuf(7M) = 12.5M.

Next year we have 23M to spend without a cap increase and if what some
hockey people are saying is the cap could rise to as much as 72M next year
then yes I have no doubt we can re-sign our core players and even go after a
good dman as a UFA>

the rest fraser,ranger,raymond, kulemin we have to evaluate to determine if
they are what we need going forward.

RFA's Franson,Reimer,Gardiner will have to take what Nonis offers them
or sit out. its that simple. Nonis holds all the cards with RFA's.

I think that Kulemin will walk next year - probably to the KHL - I'm in the
camp of enough of holding onto UFA's only to not resign them. If they are that important to the team that we keep them on trade deadline day then they should be re-signed. We cannot afford to lose these players that we have developed or signed
and get nothing in return for them.

As far as the cap I stand by my statement that the cap is going up and one thing that Nonis does well is getting his RFA's to sign for what he wants. He will not overpay for a RFA when he holds all the cards but EVERYONE overpays for UFA's.
All GM's have no choice if they believe that the guy they want can bolster the lineup then they always overpay. Last year with the cap going down we saw a lot of
players like raymond sign for less than they are worth BUT if you look at every year before that ALL UFA's signed for more than they were worth. Supply and Demand. Business 101.

thats why I think we wont have problems getting the players we WANT(core players) re-signed under the cap structure. I look at it a little differently than most people. I dont see it as buying our way out of mistakes But I do see it as a
way of determining who we WANT to re-sign that helps us going forward.

I have no problem at the trade deadline of trading
kulemin,raymond,fraser if we feel we cant resign them next year
and they dont fit in our long range plans.

RFA"s i have no problem trading at the trade deadline or at the draft
franson - always going to be a hard signing - he thinks he's worth more than he is
reimer - if asking for #1 money ($4-5M)
gardiner - is redundant with rielly on team BUT only for a HUGE return

 

[Duke Silver]

Of course currently signed contracts aren't the issue until they come up for renewal. But if you're saying the cap is going to keep going up and will be 90 million in three years then you have to consider how many of our players are signed up beyond that point. Here's a hint - not many. You think the agents negotiating on behalf of the players aren't going to be aware the cap is going up?

Of course performance is in the equation, always has been, always will be. Duh. Nothing new here. If the avg. salary increase will be 20%, then some will get less that don't perform well but others that perform do perform well will get more and the avg. will still end up at 20%. Simple mathematics indeed!

Nonis is trading away our picks and locking up guys like Clarkson and Bozak. Cap management my ass.

And you must have missed the part where I said I'm not complaining about Phaneuf. LOL how could I, he hasn't even been resigned yet?

Reading comprehension101. Book a seat.

You have this awful propensity to make every one of your posts bitingly personal in nature. Try being a little more civil and a whole lot less condescending.

By the way, I didn't say the cap would be 90 million in 3 years. Reading comprehension 101. Book a seat. Alright, alright, I'm done kidding around.

Bozak, for all of his warts, is being paid market value for a 50-point centreman (which he was, based on points-per-game for the 2011-12 and 2012-13 seasons). I established that in an old thread called "Tyler Bozak Comparables" where I managed to predict his salary within $90,000. You're not going to get any arguments from me that Clarkson is overpaid, but thus is the nature of the free market. If you want to tip your toe into the unrestricted free agent market, you mitigate those costs by getting value from your ELCs and RFAs. This is not a new concept.

If you want to bellyache about Nonis throwing away a few 2nd/3rd/4th round draft choices for two integral parts of this team in players like Bernier and Bolland, and a young centreman with potential in Holland, then you can be my guest but I won't be joining in. Come back to me when he starts trading 1st rounders for rentals in March, and then maybe I'll come over to that side of the aisle.

You didn't complain about Phaneuf's new contract, but you also said you don't want to give him or anyone else a blank cheque. My point was that his contract is only likely to be a slight raise to the tune of $250,000-$500,000 a season and that the sky won't be falling once he's signed. Come back to me when we actually lose a key piece of this team due to our cap mismanagement. I heard this sort of stuff all last summer about how we're going to have to trade Kadri and Franson and nothing came of it.

Also, no projections like I had requested? Would be nice to see what the rest of us are apparently missing.

There, done without calling down your intelligence. Free lesson.

 

[Cleatus]

If Phaneuf asks for any more than 5 years at 6m/year, let him walk. Don't care how bad the defense will look next year without him, tank for McDavid.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You have this awful propensity to make every one of your posts bitingly personal in nature. Try being a little more civil and a whole lot less condescending.

By the way, I didn't say the cap would be 90 million in 3 years. Reading comprehension 101. Book a seat. Alright, alright, I'm done kidding around.

Bozak, for all of his warts, is being paid market value for a 50-point centreman (which he was, based on points-per-game for the 2011-12 and 2012-13 seasons). I established that in an old thread called "Tyler Bozak Comparables" where I managed to predict his salary within $90,000. You're not going to get any arguments from me that Clarkson is overpaid, but thus is the nature of the free market. If you want to tip your toe into the unrestricted free agent market, you mitigate those costs by getting value from your ELCs and RFAs. This is not a new concept.

If you want to bellyache about Nonis throwing away a few 2nd/3rd/4th round draft choices for two integral parts of this team in players like Bernier and Bolland, and a young centreman with potential in Holland, then you can be my guest but I won't be joining in. Come back to me when he starts trading 1st rounders for rentals in March, and then maybe I'll come over to that side of the aisle.

You didn't complain about Phaneuf's new contract, but you also said you don't want to give him or anyone else a blank cheque. My point was that his contract is only likely to be a slight raise to the tune of $250,000-$500,000 a season and that the sky won't be falling once he's signed. Come back to me when we actually lose a key piece of this team due to our cap mismanagement. I heard this sort of stuff all last summer about how we're going to have to trade Kadri and Franson and nothing came of it.

Also, no projections like I had requested? Would be nice to see what the rest of us are apparently missing.

There, done without calling down your intelligence. Free lesson.

Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
Simple mathematics shows that as the cap goes up the burden of currently-signed contracts goes down.

I suppose I interpreted that as condescending. Sorry if I misunderstood.

I have just heard so many people say "the cap is going up, the cap is going up" as if that somehow will mean that we can make blunders like the Clarkson signing and it won't hamper us down the road. I strongly disagree and believe moves like that will come back to haunt us.

You see Bolland as an integral part of the team. I see him as someone who next season will either be playing somewhere else or will be overpaid to stay here. I hope I'm wrong but I don't see it happening any other way and that's why I hate giving up those picks. As I have said many times before, that's an A+ trade if you are a contender putting the final pieces in place but it's a horrible move for us.

As far as cap projections go, that would take some time to put together and I just feel like doing it right now. Play with the numbers yourself if you like. If you take the time and want to show your work I will happily take a look. Keep in mind that the team as it is doesn't look too promising, everyone says we need to add at least a legit #1 centre and a top 2 d-man and they will have to be paid as well.

 

[Duke Silver]

As far as cap projections go, that would take some time to put together and I just feel like doing it right now. Play with the numbers yourself if you like. If you take the time and want to show your work I will happily take a look. Keep in mind that the team as it is doesn't look too promising, everyone says we need to add at least a legit #1 centre and a top 2 d-man and they will have to be paid as well.

The burden of proof is on you for this because you are the one predicting doom and gloom for our salary cap situation.

Take a few days if necessary.

 

[BayStreetBullies*]

If Phaneuf asks for any more than 5 years at 6m/year, let him walk. Don't care how bad the defense will look next year without him, tank for McDavid.

Oh ffs

 

[Gary Nylund]

The burden of proof is on you for this because you are the one predicting doom and gloom for our salary cap situation.

Take a few days if necessary.

LOL. I guess I could just say this then:

The burden of proof is on you because you're the one saying there's nothing to worry about. Take a few weeks if necessary.

 

[Faltorvo]

You have this awful propensity to make every one of your posts bitingly personal in nature. Try being a little more civil and a whole lot less condescending.

By the way, I didn't say the cap would be 90 million in 3 years. Reading comprehension 101. Book a seat. Alright, alright, I'm done kidding around.

Bozak, for all of his warts, is being paid market value for a 50-point centreman (which he was, based on points-per-game for the 2011-12 and 2012-13 seasons). I established that in an old thread called "Tyler Bozak Comparables" where I managed to predict his salary within $90,000. You're not going to get any arguments from me that Clarkson is overpaid, but thus is the nature of the free market. If you want to tip your toe into the unrestricted free agent market, you mitigate those costs by getting value from your ELCs and RFAs. This is not a new concept.

If you want to bellyache about Nonis throwing away a few 2nd/3rd/4th round draft choices for two integral parts of this team in players like Bernier and Bolland, and a young centreman with potential in Holland, then you can be my guest but I won't be joining in. Come back to me when he starts trading 1st rounders for rentals in March, and then maybe I'll come over to that side of the aisle.

You didn't complain about Phaneuf's new contract, but you also said you don't want to give him or anyone else a blank cheque. My point was that his contract is only likely to be a slight raise to the tune of $250,000-$500,000 a season and that the sky won't be falling once he's signed. Come back to me when we actually lose a key piece of this team due to our cap mismanagement. I heard this sort of stuff all last summer about how we're going to have to trade Kadri and Franson and nothing came of it.

Also, no projections like I had requested? Would be nice to see what the rest of us are apparently missing.

There, done without calling down your intelligence. Free lesson.

If you was able to calculate Boz using league examples, how the heck do you get Dion to 5th highest D cap hit next year?

 

[Duke Silver]

If you was able to calculate Boz using league examples, how the heck do you get Dion to 5th highest D cap hit next year?

5th-highest UFA D cap-hit. Haven't we done this song and dance before?

Ryan Suter
Brian Campbell
Zdeno Chara
Jay Bouwmeester
Dan Boyle
Kimmo Timonen
Andrei Markov
James Wisniewski
Matt Carle
Dennis Wideman

Where does Phaneuf slide in there, talent-wise? Rank these defencemen and include Phaneuf. Go.

 

[Faltorvo]

5th-highest UFA D cap-hit. Haven't we done this song and dance before?

Ryan Suter
Brian Campbell
Zdeno Chara
Jay Bouwmeester
Dan Boyle
Kimmo Timonen
Andrei Markov
James Wisniewski
Matt Carle
Dennis Wideman

Where does Phaneuf slide in there, talent-wise? Rank these defencemen and include Phaneuf. Go.

Talent wise,,JBO.

Suter,Chara,>> Dion, not even in the same sentence.

 

[Duke Silver]

Talent wise,,JBO.

Suter,Chara,>> Dion, not even in the same sentence.

It's not a time-consuming or difficult thing to ask. Rank those d-men 1-11, based on talent alone.

 

[Faltorvo]

It's not a time-consuming or difficult thing to ask. Rank those d-men 1-11.

I put Dion in around 15th among all D.

 

[Duke Silver]

I put Dion in around 15th among all D.

You're not answering the question. It's so incredibly easy.

Where does Dion Phaneuf slide in talent-wise, amongst that list of the top-10 paid UFA defencemen in the NHL?

If I liked pulling teeth, I'd be a dentist.

 

[theIceWookie]

So the contract he's rumored to be asking is for 7-7.2 million a year.

Or in a completely different way to look at it, 500 000 to 700 000 dollars a year raise.

What are you going to do with half a million dollars? Are we going to be able to add a superstar for that money? I suppose we could probably sign a Joe Colborne type. That would do wonders for this team.

Giving Phaneuf 7 million dollars a year would hardly be something that ruins the competitiveness of the team under the cap. And it's not even written that this is what he'll receive.

Yeah it would be nice to get him for 5.5 million dollars a year, but that's not feasible in the reality of the NHL, the CBA and Phaneuf's play. That's just not reality unfortunately. Phaneuf is better than the caliber of dman who receive 5 million on the open market. Much better.

 

[Al14]

I put Dion in around 15th among all D.

Based on that, what should his salary and term be?

 

[Faltorvo]

It's not a time-consuming or difficult thing to ask. Rank those d-men 1-11.

Karl
Subb
Keith
Sut
Web
Char
Doug
Petro
OEL
Leta
Seab
Kron
Yand


In no special order up top

Then names like Edler,Erhoff,Markov,Jbo,Boyle,Byfu,Biek,McDo,Staal,Vlas and a few others come into the mix.

 

[Faltorvo]

Based on that, what should his salary and term be?

I'm fine with a 8 year term, if we are able to lower his cap hit as he ages.

Pay him top dollar for the first 4, then gradually lower it.

8y x 6m is what I'm looking for.

 

[Duke Silver]

Karl
Subb
Keith
Sut
Web
Char
Doug
Petro
OEL
Leta
Seab
Kron
Yand


In no special order up top

Then names like Edler,Erhoff,Markov,Jbo,Boyle,Byfu,Biek,McDo,Staal,Vlas and a few others come into the mix.

So that's a "no" to ranking Phaneuf within the top-10 paid UFA d-men. First hotpaws, now you. It is absolutely telling that neither of you will address a simple question. This behaviour just serves to prove I have you backed into a corner.

Answer the question.

 

[Faltorvo]

So that's a "no" to ranking Phaneuf within the top-10 paid UFA d-men. First hotpaws, now you. It is absolutely telling that neither of you will address a simple question. It appears I have you backed into a corner.

The most recent UFAs are Suter and Jbo.

I don't put Dion close enough to Suter to justify being within 500k.

I put Dion in JBOs league , so 5.5/6.0m per cap hit.

The cap might go back up to 70m next season, maybe.

 

[Faltorvo]

So that's a "no" to ranking Phaneuf within the top-10 paid UFA d-men. First hotpaws, now you. It is absolutely telling that neither of you will address a simple question. It appears I have you backed into a corner.

It's not a "simple" question as you boast.

You have your metric on how to measure ones cap worth and I have mine.

Suter and JBO are my metrics. They are the most current and applicable in my opinion.

Part of this false premise is that Dion right now is being paid what he is worth and I say, he is over paid, compared to his peers.

 

[Duke Silver]

The most recent UFAs are Suter and Jbo.

I don't put Dion close enough to Suter to justify being within 500k.

I put Dion in JBOs league , so 5.5/6.0m per cap hit.

The cap might go back up to 70m next season, maybe.

You keep dodging the issue. I know all I need to know.

 

[New Liskeard]

The most recent UFAs are Suter and Jbo.

I don't put Dion close enough to Suter to justify being within 500k.

I put Dion in JBOs league , so 5.5/6.0m per cap hit.

The cap might go back up to 70m next season, maybe.

How much do you think Phaneuf would get if he hit the UFA market?

 

[hockeyfanz*]

How much do you think Phaneuf would get if he hit the UFA market?

Answer is simple...More than he is worth.

 

[Duke Silver]

It's not a "simple" question as you boast.

You have your metric on how to measure ones cap worth and I have mine.

Suter and JBO are my metrics. They are the most current and applicable in my opinion.

Part of this false premise is that Dion right now is being paid what he is worth and I say, he is over paid, compared to his peers.

Yours involve firstly comparing him to RFAs to justify lowering his cap hit. You essentially say he should not be paid a top-5 d-man salary because there are better RFA d-men out there. It doesn't work that way. It never has. You compare RFAs to RFAs, UFAs to UFAs.

You two can keep holding on to your precious Bouwmeester comparable, ignoring all the other contracts. It suits your narrative and you're sticking to it, willfully ignorant of all the other examples. When Bouwmeester signed that contract he was basically Phaneuf with a non-existent offensive game in recent years. He is now wildly undervalued based on his play this season. It is not a good comparable at all.

But by all means, continue to ignore what other UFAs have gotten paid over the years. He deserves Matt Carle/James Wisniewski money and you're sticking to that. Ridiculous.