Dion Phaneuf Appreciation Thread

[Duke Silver]

FYI, Weber was an RFA signing

Forgot about the Flyers offer sheet fiasco.

Whatever, that actually improves the answer to that question.

Hotpaws, still waiting.......

 

[Gary Nylund]

I disagree. I could name a handful of leafs who imo have been better

Put me in the camp that's waiting for you to name names.

 

[diceman934]

They're definitely deluded. As we see with the Bozak debate, the Bolland - Clarkson ( top-six "shut down" pair), or the idea that most top D pairings in the NHL are also involved in shut down duties, very deluded.

I don't get it. No one here is suggesting that he's as physical dominant as Pronger. Nor is anyone suggesting that he's some sort of elite smooth-skating PMD like Lidstrom. In fact, he needs someone like Brodin to really help him generate creativity in the backend. We look very predicable and it's hampering us.

Phaneuf is a top 10-15 defenceman, but it's not like the gap between defencemen is that huge. We don't really have a Lidstrom ( thinking Brodin will be) or a Pronger. With Lidstrom you had a two-way positionally elite PMD, who usually wouldn't need to rush into the offence zone. With Pronger, you had a mean two-way beast, who could control the tempo of the game with his puck moving ability particularly his passing. Dion, on the other hand, is one of - if not - the best hitters in the NHL, and has a very parsimonious playing style, but never had elite passing ability. Nonetheless he makes crisp passes and is a very dominant puck rushers.

Passing is and continues to be a weakness, he leads the team in miss passes. So many go for icing. He is no where near the best hitting D man.... he now just looks for smaller players to hit and is usually second in the corner.

 

[diceman934]

Blah. Your emotion is showing. Those two players are a lot closer than you think. In fact, their playing style isn't that far off either. All-round defenceman, who can shut down top lines, and yet generate top 10 offensively.

No where close in comparison, One controls the tempo of the game ....the other not so much. Passing, Skating, carrying the puck all areas that Dion is very far behind. Then lets not talk about IQ.....the grand canyon is not as wide as their gap.

 

[diceman934]

Most non Leaf fans don't want the leafs to re-sign Phaneuf for under market value at 7 million per.

Most realistic Leaf fans do not want to see Dion being paid 7m per on a long term deal....

7m is over value and not under.

 

[The Apologist]

Most realistic Leaf fans do not want to see Dion being paid 7m per on a long term deal....

7m is over value and not under.

Most 'realistic' Leaf fan understand that Phaneuf is going to get what Phaneuf wants, regardless if what we want. I don't wanna pay Kessel 8m either, but I'd rather we do it than someone else.

As for 'value', if the market determines that, Phaneuf at 7 will be well below value.

 

[The Apologist]

No where close in comparison, One controls the tempo of the game ....the other not so much. Passing, Skating, carrying the puck all areas that Dion is very far behind. Then lets not talk about IQ.....the grand canyon is not as wide as their gap.

And here is a classic case of 'grass is greener'

 

[LeafOfBread]

And here is a classic case of 'grass is greener'

What I find funny is that people who claim that these other d-men are so much better rarely ever actually watch the other d-men outside of maybe the Olympics and a couple of playoff games.

Seeing people say that J-Bo is better than Dion is hilarious. He's having a great season, but he's playing alongside Pietrangelo and is 3rd on the team in offensive zone start %. Any decent #3 calibre d-man would do well those in those conditions.

 

[diceman934]

And here is a classic case of 'grass is greener'

Not at all.....he is vastly superior.....top 3 in the league and Dion is not in the top 10 but close.

I watch a lot of hockey and if you watched LA you would not post that.....post that on the main board to see.....

 

[diceman934]

What I find funny is that people who claim that these other d-men are so much better rarely ever actually watch the other d-men outside of maybe the Olympics and a couple of playoff games.

Seeing people say that J-Bo is better than Dion is hilarious. He's having a great season, but he's playing alongside Pietrangelo and is 3rd on the team in offensive zone start %. Any decent #3 calibre d-man would do well those in those conditions.

Maybe you should watch the games as well.....J-Bo is having a great year.....as is Dion, as he is having his best year and they are very comparable.

Dion is not putting up top offensive numbers he is 46 in D man scoring playing a lot of PP minutes and J-Bo is 6th in D man scoring. They play the same amount of minutes a game....Dion plays almost a minute more a game on the PP then J-Bo. Both are playing on the top PK unit. Yet Dion is leading the league in PPGA.

There are some stats to back up the claim that they are very comparable. Best start watching some late games.

 

[bleeney]

Maybe you should watch the games as well.....J-Bo is having a great year.....as is Dion, as he is having his best year and they are very comparable.

Dion is not putting up top offensive numbers he is 46 in D man scoring playing a lot of PP minutes and J-Bo is 6th in D man scoring. They play the same amount of minutes a game....Dion plays almost a minute more a game on the PP then J-Bo. Both are playing on the top PK unit. Yet Dion is leading the league in PPGA.

There are some stats to back up the claim that they are very comparable. Best start watching some late games.

Don't get me wrong, I wish we could add Bouwmeester to our blueline, but I'd still take Dion in a heartbeat over JayBo, who has found himself in a great situation compared to Phaneuf. Dion has consistenty outscored Bouwmeester by a substantial margin throughout their careers, but suddenly JayBo is putting up monster numbers... call it the Pietrangelo effect.

Who would you rather play with, Pieterangelo or Gunnarsson? How many points would Phaneuf have playing with a big, fast, talented budding superstar just entering his prime like Alex instead of Gunnar?

Which group of forwards are easier to play defense behind, the stingy Blues or the Leafs?

Re Dion's offensive numbers, I saw an interview two weeks ago. Dion said that Carlyle doesn't want his Dmen blasting away, looking for goals. He wants them to direct the puck at the net, looking for deflections and rebounds. That might explain why we only have 3 goals from our blueline all year (Dion has 2 of them). Franson, Gardiner, Rielly have all been shut out.

I enjoy your posts Diceman. You're one of the best posters here. And even though some of your criticism is valid, I think you're being a little hard on Phaneuf. No, he's not Chara, but he's on the outer edge of "elite" Dmen. And (unlike the braindead Dion bashers) you acknowledge that he's having a hell of a year.

On the HNIC pregame show, they were talking about how, with the new TV deal, the cap is projected to go as high as $80M over the next 3-4 years, or maybe even more! Even if they give Dion a raise, it will be a bargain a few years down the road. I shudder to think of this blueline without him. Guys that can do what Dion can do (be physical, excel in a shutdown role against the best players in the game, and still add significant offensive numbers) are extremely hard to come by. And when you get one, you keep him.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

What I find funny is that people who claim that these other d-men are so much better rarely ever actually watch the other d-men outside of maybe the Olympics and a couple of playoff games.

Seeing people say that J-Bo is better than Dion is hilarious. He's having a great season, but he's playing alongside Pietrangelo and is 3rd on the team in offensive zone start %. Any decent #3 calibre d-man would do well those in those conditions.

Actually I would say the reverse is true..I know so many Leafs fans that dont give a flying "you know what" about watching any other teams...they dont watch the playoffs because the Leafs usually arent present in the last decade. They admit as much...therefore they have these grandiose ideas of how great their team is..despite the actual efforts and results displayed on the ice. They compare Dion Phaneuf to the best defenders in the league when nobody else in the hockey world does. They seem to think that every player they acquire is a stud...they seem to dislike any criticisms no matter how valid of the team/ management/ coach or individual players.

Thats a lot closer to the truth than what you claim. And without hate for Phaneuf or gross admiration...he is a good defenceman..no doubt..especially when compared to the rest of the pathetic blue line that the genius spent 5 long years putting together...but he is NOT a Norris Candidate nor is he a Canadian Olympian.

The only player on the roster that can be claimed as a top 10 player at their respective position at the moment is Phil Kessel. That's reality.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Actually I would say the reverse is true..I know so many Leafs fans that dont give a flying "you know what" about watching any other teams...they dont watch the playoffs because the Leafs usually arent present in the last decade. They admit as much...therefore they have these grandiose ideas of how great their team is..despite the actual efforts and results displayed on the ice. They compare Dion Phaneuf to the best defenders in the league when nobody else in the hockey world does. They seem to think that every player they acquire is a stud...they seem to dislike any criticisms no matter how valid of the team/ management/ coach or individual players.

Thats a lot closer to the truth than what you claim. And without hate for Phaneuf or gross admiration...he is a good defenceman..no doubt..especially when compared to the rest of the pathetic blue line that the genius spent 5 long years putting together...but he is NOT a Norris Candidate nor is he a Canadian Olympian.

The only player on the roster that can be claimed as a top 10 player at their respective position at the moment is Phil Kessel. That's reality.

Meh, no need to generalize when talking about Leaf fans. There's smart ones, there's dumb ones, pretty much the full spectrum is covered.

Perhaps he won't be a Norris candidate or an olympian this year but at the moment he at least belongs in the conversation. I'm not interested in getting into a lengthy debate about whether Phaneuf is a top 10 d-man or not as it's a very subjective call anyway. Based only on his play so far this season I'd say he is easily top 10 but he hasn't played that well for long enough IMO to say that he's going to be there say a year from now.

Top 5 - no.
Top 10 - maybe.
Top 15 - more than likely yes.
Top 20 - easily.

Maybe he's 8th. Maybe he's 14th. Whatever. Like I said it's somewhat subjective anyway.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Meh, no need to generalize when talking about Leaf fans. There's smart ones, there's dumb ones, pretty much the full spectrum is covered.

Perhaps he won't be a Norris candidate or an olympian this year but at the moment he at least belongs in the conversation. I'm not interested in getting into a lengthy debate about whether Phaneuf is a top 10 d-man or not as it's a very subjective call anyway. Based only on his play so far this season I'd say he is easily top 10 but he hasn't played that well for long enough IMO to say that he's going to be there say a year from now.

Top 5 - no.
Top 10 - maybe.
Top 15 - more than likely yes.
Top 20 - easily.

Maybe he's 8th. Maybe he's 14th. Whatever. Like I said it's somewhat subjective anyway.

Missing the point entirely...I am not in the bash Dion camp although I am in agreement that one has to step carefully before signing stupid agreements like Leaf management has been doing for years now. Sometimes you have to let players walk...shoulda done it with Bozak...shoulda done it with Clarkson..."Easy to say..but who would fill the gap..blah blah blah".. is the typical brainless argument.

...like these players are the only ones who will ever be able to play in their respective roles...please.

Its not better to OVERPAY for a player than let him walk and worry about filling his shoes. Not in a Cap world. Not if you plan to ever win anything. Perhaps in Pre-hardcap days you just give the guy the money to keep him....but big picture nowadays says no you dont. Are the Leafs on the cusp of winning anything at the moment? Delusional if your answer is anything but No. So why worry about it? You have months and even years to make trades..sign FA's, draft players...In Clarksons case its SEVEN Years to find another Clarkson.

Also my point was really how Toronto is more of a Leafs market than it is a hockey market. Who are we kidding? Leafs fans for the most part support the Leafs and not pro hockey in general. Can't even get fans to go out to watch the farm team FFS. And they are future Leafs but not present Leafs.... so not much interest. The games are actually affordable. My circle of friends are mostly Leaf fans and they couldn't give a crap about a playoff series featuring Chicago and San Jose. What the hell kind of "hockey fan" is that?

Also how many hockey markets in the NHL would pay the highest ticket prices for a mediocre to lousy product and sell out the joint every night for 50 years? One. Toronto.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Missing the point entirely...I am not in the bash Dion camp although I am in agreement that one has to step carefully before signing stupid agreements like Leaf management has been doing for years now. Sometimes you have to let players walk...shoulda done it with Bozak...shoulda done it with Clarkson..."Easy to say..but who would fill the gap..blah blah blah".. is the typical brainless argument.

...like these players are the only ones who will ever be able to play in their respective roles...please.

Its not better to OVERPAY for a player than let him walk and worry about filling his shoes. Not in a Cap world. Not if you plan to ever win anything. Perhaps in Pre-hardcap days you just give the guy the money to keep him....but big picture nowadays says no you dont. Are the Leafs on the cusp of winning anything at the moment? Delusional if your answer is anything but No. So why worry about it? You have months and even years to make trades..sign FA's, draft players...In Clarksons case its SEVEN Years to find another Clarkson.

Also my point was really how Toronto is more of a Leafs market than it is a hockey market. Who are we kidding? Leafs fans for the most part support the Leafs and not pro hockey in general. Can't even get fans to go out to watch the farm team FFS. And they are future Leafs but not present Leafs.... so not much interest. The games are actually affordable. My circle of friends are mostly Leaf fans and they couldn't give a crap about a playoff series featuring Chicago and San Jose. What the hell kind of "hockey fan" is that?

Also how many hockey markets in the NHL would pay the highest ticket prices for a mediocre to lousy product and sell out the joint every night for 50 years? One. Toronto.

My apologies, I misread your post. I thought you said all leaf fans, and you said so many leaf fans. Basically I agree with everything you say, especially the bolded part. I think most people here don't fully understand the implications of this new cap era and they think a cap increase will enable us to pay our way out of trouble.

I'm not worrying about overpaying Phaneuf though. The worst that can happen is that we pay him 8 when he's worth 7, something like that. Compared to the other overpayments on this roster that's nothing. I guess what I'm trying to say I don't mind overpaying a couple of players (a little bit, no blank cheques) if they're key players like Phaneuf, Kessel etc. What I do hate is overpaying role players like Clarkson, Bozak and Bolland I suspect will be next and I also don't understand those who don't mind paying Clarkson 5+ million a year but aren't willing to pay Dion more than 6.

BTW I saw a couple of Marlies games recently and I agree 100%, affordable and pretty good hockey to boot. Highly recommended! I actually got free tickets but will probably pay to see a few games this season. And if anyone wants to go cheap, just go during the week when there's lots of empty seats, buy cheap tickets and move into those empty seats. You can go for the price of a movie.

Editing to add that I think you have hit on the single most important thing to keep in mind in order to build a contender - do not overpay. I would rather have 10-15 million in free cap space then overpay guys especially role players like Bolland and Clarkson. I can foresee a scenario a few years from now where most teams will be capped out, some small market teams will have cap space but won't want to spend it, and some (very few) teams with smart GM's will have some cap space and by default will be able to sign some quality players to contracts where they will get a ton of bang for their buck. I wish we were one of those teams. Sigh.

 

[notdoneyet]

Missing the point entirely...I am not in the bash Dion camp although I am in agreement that one has to step carefully before signing stupid agreements like Leaf management has been doing for years now. Sometimes you have to let players walk...shoulda done it with Bozak...shoulda done it with Clarkson..."Easy to say..but who would fill the gap..blah blah blah".. is the typical brainless argument.

...like these players are the only ones who will ever be able to play in their respective roles...please.

Its not better to OVERPAY for a player than let him walk and worry about filling his shoes. Not in a Cap world. Not if you plan to ever win anything. Perhaps in Pre-hardcap days you just give the guy the money to keep him....but big picture nowadays says no you dont. Are the Leafs on the cusp of winning anything at the moment? Delusional if your answer is anything but No. So why worry about it? You have months and even years to make trades..sign FA's, draft players...In Clarksons case its SEVEN Years to find another Clarkson.

Also my point was really how Toronto is more of a Leafs market than it is a hockey market. Who are we kidding? Leafs fans for the most part support the Leafs and not pro hockey in general. Can't even get fans to go out to watch the farm team FFS. And they are future Leafs but not present Leafs.... so not much interest. The games are actually affordable. My circle of friends are mostly Leaf fans and they couldn't give a crap about a playoff series featuring Chicago and San Jose. What the hell kind of "hockey fan" is that?

Also how many hockey markets in the NHL would pay the highest ticket prices for a mediocre to lousy product and sell out the joint every night for 50 years? One. Toronto.

well its posters like you that take the option of letting these players go
but never come up with which better players do we replace them with.

sure we can wait another 7 years to replace clarkson but by that time our core is much older and we will always be in a constant rebuild.

because whether you believe it or not we cant be rebuilding for another 50 years.
there comes a point in time when you have to decide we are close and are missing just a few pieces to be a contender.

If you realistically look at our team we are not that far from getting there.

We still have a couple of pieces to add and then we will be there. Thats not being
delusional thats looking at things realistically.

 

[notdoneyet]

My apologies, I misread your post. I thought you said all leaf fans, and you said so many leaf fans. Basically I agree with everything you say, especially the bolded part. I think most people here don't fully understand the implications of this new cap era and they think a cap increase will enable us to pay our way out of trouble.

I'm not worrying about overpaying Phaneuf though. The worst that can happen is that we pay him 8 when he's worth 7, something like that. Compared to the other overpayments on this roster that's nothing. I guess what I'm trying to say I don't mind overpaying a couple of players (a little bit, no blank cheques) if they're key players like Phaneuf, Kessel etc. What I do hate is overpaying role players like Clarkson, Bozak and Bolland I suspect will be next and I also don't understand those who don't mind paying Clarkson 5+ million a year but aren't willing to pay Dion more than 6.

BTW I saw a couple of Marlies games recently and I agree 100%, affordable and pretty good hockey to boot. Highly recommended! I actually got free tickets but will probably pay to see a few games this season. And if anyone wants to go cheap, just go during the week when there's lots of empty seats, buy cheap tickets and move into those empty seats. You can go for the price of a movie.

Editing to add that I think you have hit on the single most important thing to keep in mind in order to build a contender - do not overpay. I would rather have 10-15 million in free cap space then overpay guys especially role players like Bolland and Clarkson. I can foresee a scenario a few years from now where most teams will be capped out, some small market teams will have cap space but won't want to spend it, and some (very few) teams with smart GM's will have some cap space and by default will be able to sign some quality players to contracts where they will get a ton of bang for their buck. I wish we were one of those teams. Sigh.

well according to all reports with the outdoor games and the new
TV deal the cap could be upwards of 90M in three years. If this
happens there are only a handful of teams that will spend to the max
and fortunately we are one of them, so i think signing players will
be no problem when this happens

 

[Gary Nylund]

well its posters like you that take the option of letting these players go
but never come up with which better players do we replace them with.

Sure we can wait another 7 years to replace clarkson but by that time our core is much older and we will always be in a constant rebuild.

Because whether you believe it or not we cant be rebuilding for another 50 years.
There comes a point in time when you have to decide we are close and are missing just a few pieces to be a contender.

If you realistically look at our team we are not that far from getting there.

We still have a couple of pieces to add and then we will be there. Thats not being
delusional thats looking at things realistically.

I'll go with delusional.

 

[Mike Martin]

He needs to start fighting again, if his teammates saw him do that early in a game it would raise morale tremendously.

 

[BayStreetBullies*]

This is funny. Before he was criticized for laying out big hits and taking himself out of the play. Now he gets criticized for becoming a much better defenceman while contributing offensively, but not laying out the big hits. What's next? He doesn't make enough no look passes?

 

[notdoneyet]

I'll go with delusional.

again you skip over the most important part of the post

let us know who we replace these players we are letting go with.

Not many FA out there that can replace them and trades will cost us assets

so please use your magic and enlighten us as to who the replacements are

 

[Gary Nylund]

again you skip over the most important part of the post

let us know who we replace these players we are letting go with.

Not many FA out there that can replace them and trades will cost us assets

so please use your magic and enlighten us as to who the replacements are

Why don't you first tell me who we are letting go and why?

This notion that the increasing cap will allow us to buy our way out of our mistakes is naive to put it mildly. If the cap goes up 20% every single player out there will be wanting a 20% raise when their contracts expire. Have a look at all our players who's contract are up for renewal at the end of this season, then next season ... if you think a 15 million cap increase means we can keep all our guys and have extra 15 million to spend you're nuts. You are the guy who said that because of the cap increase signing guys will be "no problem" right?

And BTW, not once have I said I don't want to resign Dion. All I'm saying is I don't want to hand a blank cheque to anyone. It's other moves we've made like Clarkson for example that I am critical of.

 

[Duke Silver]

Why don't you first tell me who we are letting go and why?

This notion that the increasing cap will allow us to buy our way out of our mistakes is naive to put it mildly. If the cap goes up 20% every single player out there will be wanting a 20% raise when their contracts expire. Have a look at all our players who's contract are up for renewal at the end of this season, then next season ... if you think a 15 million cap increase means we can keep all our guys and have extra 15 million to spend you're nuts. You are the guy who said that because of the cap increase signing guys will be "no problem" right?

And BTW, not once have I said I don't want to resign Dion. All I'm saying is I don't want to hand a blank cheque to anyone. It's other moves we've made like Clarkson for example that I am critical of.

Simple mathematics shows that as the cap goes up the burden of currently-signed contracts goes down.

To suggest players will want raises proportional to the heightening of the salary cap takes their performance completely out of the equation.

I don't see how a $250,000-$500,000 raise for Phaneuf, especially in a higher cap era, is going to cripple us from signing other key pieces over the next few years. It's not going to push Kadri and Gardiner out the door, that for sure. Someone like Kulemin? Maybe.

Either way, many teams are forced to deal their non-essential parts once their core is locked up. That's the life of the salary cap. That's why you draft.

To suggest that Nonis or any other team does not know how to manage the salary cap is silly. We must remember that many teams were forced into difficult decisions when the cap went down $6M last season.

Since the future of our salary cap is such an issue, would you mind giving us your cap projections for the next 2 years? Use salary caps of $70M and $75M. It would allow us to see where the fire is.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Simple mathematics shows that as the cap goes up the burden of currently-signed contracts goes down.

To suggest players will want raises proportional to the heightening of the salary cap takes their performance completely out of the equation.

I don't see how a $250,000-$500,000 raise for Phaneuf, especially in a higher cap era, is going to cripple us from signing other key pieces over the next few years. It's not going to push Kadri and Gardiner out the door, that for sure. Someone like Kulemin? Maybe.

Either way, many teams are forced to deal their non-essential parts once their core is locked up. That's the life of the salary cap. That's why you draft.

To suggest that Nonis or any other team does not know how to manage the salary cap is silly. We must remember that many teams were forced into difficult decisions when the cap went down $6M last season.

Since the future of our salary cap is such an issue, would you mind giving us your cap projections for the next 2 years? Use salary caps of $70M and $75M. It would allow us to see where the fire is.

Of course currently signed contracts aren't the issue until they come up for renewal. But if you're saying the cap is going to keep going up and will be 90 million in three years then you have to consider how many of our players are signed up beyond that point. Here's a hint - not many. You think the agents negotiating on behalf of the players aren't going to be aware the cap is going up?

Of course performance is in the equation, always has been, always will be. Duh. Nothing new here. If the avg. salary increase will be 20%, then some will get less that don't perform well but others that perform do perform well will get more and the avg. will still end up at 20%. Simple mathematics indeed!

Nonis is trading away our picks and locking up guys like Clarkson and Bozak. Cap management my ass.

And you must have missed the part where I said I'm not complaining about Phaneuf. LOL how could I, he hasn't even been resigned yet?

Reading comprehension101. Book a seat.

 

[William Hylander]

He needs to start fighting again, if his teammates saw him do that early in a game it would raise morale tremendously.

He doesn't fight because he's our only competent defenseman. Losing him for 5 mins will result in alot of chances going the other way.