TSN: Dion almost signed? Mod warning post #277

[Banic]

I've never heard this mention of the "goofy" side of Phaneuf personality before...will try to listen for it. It's true that we fans are only exposed to glimpses of our Leafs' personalities so most things should be taken with a grain of salt. Nor should we care as the main thing is what they do for the team. Still, perceptions are what they are and Phaneuf comes across to me a basically a dick...not that it is correct or ultimately matters. But he needs better PR.

He was mean to Kessel and his cookie problem

 

[DD03]

I've never heard this mention of the "goofy" side of Phaneuf personality before...will try to listen for it. It's true that we fans are only exposed to glimpses of our Leafs' personalities so most things should be taken with a grain of salt. Nor should we care as the main thing is what they do for the team. Still, perceptions are what they are and Phaneuf comes across to me a basically a dick...not that it is correct or ultimately matters. But he needs better PR.

To be fair though, the media are hounds. You gotta view them as hounds

 

[Gary Nylund]

Because when evaluating Phaneuf for a new contract. You don't only look at the most recent season, you look at the body of work. He has not been a Norris level defenceman his whole time here, even though he is having an excellent season. Half a year or quality hockey does not lock you up for 8 yrs 7 million a piece especially due to the fact his best year is a contract one. If you want to talk stats don't talk 1 season.

I never said he has been Norris level his whole time here.

Here's what I did say (again). He is having an awesome season, as of this moment he would absolutely be in the conversation when picking Norris trophy candidates and that if he isn't picked for Team Canada that doesn't really mean anything because the criteria of being picked for that team is different than the criteria for winning the Norris. His stats for how the team performs with him on the ice vs. him off the ice are phenomenal and are in my opinion much more meaningful then his goals/assists numbers.

I find the arguments against him to be incredibly weak. Posting video clips of single plays. Goals/assits numbers. Meaningless polls. Comparing cherry-picked stats against Rielly. Comments about his personality etc.

Weak sauce!

I think he's worth 7x7 a year. Others don't and that's fine. But the "evidence" that he is not playing well this season is just laughable IMO.

He is having a good year 5 on 5, but not on the PK or PP and his offense is severely lacking.

He has the same amount of points on the PP as Rielly who plays considerable less time on the PP. He is also on the ice for far to many PK goals against.....so I do not believe he is anywhere near a candidate for the Norris.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I've never heard this mention of the "goofy" side of Phaneuf personality before...will try to listen for it. It's true that we fans are only exposed to glimpses of our Leafs' personalities so most things should be taken with a grain of salt. Nor should we care as the main thing is what they do for the team. Still, perceptions are what they are and Phaneuf comes across to me a basically a dick...not that it is correct or ultimately matters. But he needs better PR.

Yeah his PR could be better. Ultimately though, not a big deal. Mario Lemieux got a raw deal from the press when he played because he just hated dealing with the media and couldn't "fake it" either. It wasn't fair, but didn't stop him from playing hockey like a young god.

 

[Bluelines]

I never said he has been Norris level his whole time here.

To be fair the Norris is now the award given to the defenceman with the best slapshot on the PP ... Dion has a pretty poor shot he would never be considered for the Norris .

 

[Banic]

I never said he has been Norris level his whole time here.

Here's what I did say (again). He is having an awesome season, as of this moment he would absolutely be in the conversation when picking Norris trophy candidates and that if he isn't picked for Team Canada that doesn't really mean anything because the criteria of being picked for that team is different than the criteria for winning the Norris. His stats for how the team performs with him on the ice vs. him off the ice are phenomenal and are in my opinion much more meaningful then his goals/assists numbers.

I find the arguments against him to be incredibly weak. Posting video clips of single plays. Goals/assits numbers. Meaningless polls. Comparing cherry-picked stats against Rielly. Comments about his personality etc.

Weak sauce!

I think he's worth 7x7 a year. Others don't and that's fine. But the "evidence" that he is not playing well this season is just laughable IMO.

Which is fine. But the evidence for him is also weak sauce. The team is in a slide kicking around 500 atm. He will not win the Norris with the team at those numbers.

I find the arguments for him being our #1 and worth 7/7 also weaksauce. You can give me polls and stats and show single videos of other #1 d men making errors all you want (see what I did there??) he is not worth the 49mil imo.

What it comes down to is an opinion. Your a fan boy, I think he's a quality #2.

 

[diceman934]

I never said he has been Norris level his whole time here.

Here's what I did say (again). He is having an awesome season, as of this moment he would absolutely be in the conversation when picking Norris trophy candidates and that if he isn't picked for Team Canada that doesn't really mean anything because the criteria of being picked for that team is different than the criteria for winning the Norris. His stats for how the team performs with him on the ice vs. him off the ice are phenomenal and are in my opinion much more meaningful then his goals/assists numbers.

I find the arguments against him to be incredibly weak. Posting video clips of single plays. Goals/assits numbers. Meaningless polls. Comparing cherry-picked stats against Rielly. Comments about his personality etc.

Weak sauce!

I think he's worth 7x7 a year. Others don't and that's fine. But the "evidence" that he is not playing well this season is just laughable IMO.

Is is true that his PP production is very poor for the amount of minutes he is getting. I was not Cherry picking stats but just trying to paint a picture of just how ineffective he has been on the PP.

His PK stats are not good as well as he has been on the ice for 19 short handed goals against. That is along with him being among the leader leaders in shots on goal against with over 11 per 20 minutes of play. Sure he is playing against the other teams top lines but not as effective as his plus/minus stat suggests....

He is no where near a Candidate for the Norris....

 

[The Blue Devil]

It was 2 polls but 'constantly' should not have been used.

Still shows he isn't necessarily the most likeable guy as you seem to think he is. All speculation but that doesn't happen for no reason. Maybe they're all jelly of Elisha :p

Ovechkin(?) and everybody's new love boy Bouwmeester(sp?) were also in the top 5, but I guess that doesn't matter right?

 

[bauer]

The stats have already been posted which show how much better the team performs when Dion is on the ice. But that's not enough for some of you, you think mgmnt should tell him he's gotta score more points himself. Just incredible.

But OK, I'm open to hearing why I'm wrong. Please explain to me why goals and assists numbers are more important to assessing Dion's value then the overall performance numbers which show him to be having an awesome season.

ok so let me get this straight then, you think it's okay to pay a defeseman 7m over 7-8 years, which is his rumoured asking price, for producing 28 points? which is what he's currently on pace for.

this entire thread is about Phaneuf reisgning with the Leafs. and the question of is he worth that price? and i'll say it again, if a defenseman wants a big payday, 7m+, then he better produce offensively too. you don't give out big contracts like that for stay at home Dmen.

and he obviously isn't doing that good a job defensively either. a minus player in 4 of the last 5 games. the team's falling apart all around him. what exactly is he doing right now that is really helping the team? that they can't do without? cause they look to be in shambles right now.

 

[Gary Nylund]

ok so let me get this straight then, you think it's okay to pay a defeseman 7m over 7-8 years, which is his rumoured asking price, for producing 28 points? which is what he's currently on pace for.

this entire thread is about Phaneuf reisgning with the Leafs. and the question of is he worth that price? and i'll say it again, if a defenseman wants a big payday, 7m+, then he better produce offensively too. you don't give out big contracts like that for stay at home Dmen.

and he obviously isn't doing that good a job defensively either. a minus player in 4 of the last 5 games. the team's falling apart all around him. what exactly is he doing right now that is really helping the team? that they can't do without? cause they look to be in shambles right now.

I think that assessing d-men by how many points they produce is just terrible. By that measure Franson is better than Phaneuf (just to pick one example). Franson is better than Phaneuf? Really?

Over the entire season he has been phenomenal. I refer you to post #554 for statistical evidence. How do you expect to be taken seriously when you pick a 5 game sample to make your argument?

The team is in shambles. You get no argument from me there. Doesn't mean Phaneuf hasn't been playing well though.

 

[Banic]

I think that assessing d-men by how many points they produce is just terrible. By that measure Franson is better than Phaneuf (just to pick one example). Franson is better than Phaneuf? Really?

Over the entire season he has been phenomenal. I refer you to post #554 for statistical evidence. How do you expect to be taken seriously when you pick a 5 game sample to make your argument?

The team is in shambles. You get no argument from me there. Doesn't mean Phaneuf hasn't been playing well though.

A Norris Trophy winner pulls his team out of such a shamble. A leader puts the team on his back and carries their ass. (I refer you to Mark Messier and NYR hattrick third period) A Stanley Cup captain does not back down and ralies the troops.

 

[bauer]

I think that assessing d-men by how many points they produce is just terrible. By that measure Franson is better than Phaneuf (just to pick one example). Franson is better than Phaneuf? Really?

Over the entire season he has been phenomenal. I refer you to post #554 for statistical evidence. How do you expect to be taken seriously when you pick a 5 game sample to make your argument?

The team is in shambles. You get no argument from me there. Doesn't mean Phaneuf hasn't been playing well though.

we're talking future contract here. i'm aware there's a lot more than just points to a players game. but the truth is, if a defenseman wants a big payday, he should be able to put up solid numbers. i can't put it any simpler than that. take a look at all the D that Phaneuf wants to be in the same company as, they are all outproducing him.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Which is fine. But the evidence for him is also weak sauce. The team is in a slide kicking around 500 atm. He will not win the Norris with the team at those numbers.

I find the arguments for him being our #1 and worth 7/7 also weaksauce. You can give me polls and stats and show single videos of other #1 d men making errors all you want (see what I did there??) he is not worth the 49mil imo.

What it comes down to is an opinion. Your a fan boy, I think he's a quality #2.

I agree he probably won't win the Norris with the team so bad. So what? All I said was he is playing so well this season that he is a worthy Norris candidate.

I haven't posted any videos and I don't care about that stupid poll. As far as stats go ... well I don't need stats to tell me how well he has played this year. If I do want to look at stats though I don't want stats like his plus/minus over the last 5 games, stats like that are worse than useless. And this whole deal about "he has to score more" is just dumb IMO, preventing goals is just as important as scoring goals. To me that's obvious and I am amazed people think he should score more himself to justify a big payday.

I don't really consider myself a fanboy. But I am a fan of the way Phaneuf has played this season, you got me there.

If you don't think he's worth a 7x7 contract that's cool, everyone's entitled to their opinion. I think he's worth it though and some single video of some mistake he made isn't going to change my mind as I prefer to evaluate him on his entire body of work.

 

[Gary Nylund]

A Norris Trophy winner pulls his team out of such a shamble. A leader puts the team on his back and carries their ass. (I refer you to Mark Messier and NYR hattrick third period) A Stanley Cup captain does not back down and ralies the troops.

I see. So if a team is bad, that means that there can't by definition be any "leaders" on the team. Because you know, leaders are capable of winning games all by themselves.

Cool story bro. I guess Tavares sucks too.

 

[yubbers]

He has the worst goaltending ever and always has. Not something you can say about Phaneuf

Package reims and Phaneuf up and get it done!

 

[Gary Nylund]

we're talking future contract here. i'm aware there's a lot more than just points to a players game. but the truth is, if a defenseman wants a big payday, he should be able to put up solid numbers. i can't put it any simpler than that. take a look at all the D that Phaneuf wants to be in the same company as, they are all outproducing him.

I think that's a ludicrous way of judging a player, especially a d-man and can only hope that Nonis thinks differently. If the Leafs are a much better team with Phaneuf on the ice then they are with Phaneuf off the ice, that's good enough for me. Infact that's more than good enough, it's the only thing that matters.

Again I refer you to post #554 for evidence.

 

[Gallagbi]

A Norris Trophy winner pulls his team out of such a shambles. A leader puts the team on his back and carries their ass. (I refer you to Mark Messier and NYR hattrick third period) A Stanley Cup captain does not back down and ralies the troops.

Didn't Messier rally the Canucks to 3 straight missed playoffs and their worst record in the past 30 years?

Isn't Ottawa in shambles right now with former Norris winner Erik Karlsson leading their D?

I don't think Phaneuf is a Messier calibre leader or a Norris level dman, but it seems like your expectations are a little off.

 

[yubbers]

Spezza has always been the problem in Ottawa IMO

 

[Gary Nylund]

He has the worst goaltending ever and always has. Not something you can say about Phaneuf

Package reims and Phaneuf up and get it done!

If you're suggesting we trade those 2 for Tavares that's cool with me, I'd even toss in Bozak and Clarkson. NYI would laugh in our face at that offer though.

 

[TootooTrain]

A Norris Trophy winner pulls his team out of such a shamble. A leader puts the team on his back and carries their ass. (I refer you to Mark Messier and NYR hattrick third period) A Stanley Cup captain does not back down and ralies the troops.

Sounds like you're reading from a movie script. Not every captain can be that type of person/player. There are varying degrees which are more than acceptable.

 

[yubbers]

If you're suggesting we trade those 2 for Tavares that's cool with me, I'd even toss in Bozak and Clarkson. NYI would laugh in our face at that offer though.

Fantasy land, I know

Doesn't seem to be working with him over there though. A proper goalie and guy like Phaneuf is exactly what they need. Sure, throw in Clarkson. No Boz They'd want Reilly or Gardiner

 

[Banic]

Didn't Messier rally the Canucks to 3 straight missed playoffs and their worst record in the past 30 years?

Isn't Ottawa in shambles right now with former Norris winner Erik Karlsson leading their D?

I don't think Phaneuf is a Messier calibre leader or a Norris level dman, but it seems like your expectations are a little off.

I don't consider Karlsson a great defenseman so I don't know how that's relevant. Messier was older and had already been a proven Stanley Cup champion and leader. Are you seriously trying to tell me he isn't a quality leader??

Just because a team is **** doesn't mean the leader is horrible. But the leafs shouldn't be ****, they have a bunch of players who have played some amazing hockey but come off as unmotivated, lazy or uninterested. That's a leadership issue no matter how you want to defend it. My expectation is a cup eventually, to do that we need a better Captain than Phaneuf.

 

[Banic]

I see. So if a team is bad, that means that there can't by definition be any "leaders" on the team. Because you know, leaders are capable of winning games all by themselves.

Cool story bro. I guess Tavares sucks too.

Tavares has won games for his team and puts up serious points. Does Phaneuf?

 

[Banic]

Sounds like you're reading from a movie script. Not every captain can be that type of person/player. There are varying degrees which are more than acceptable.

Yes but this is Toronto. This is one of the hardest cities in the league to play in with the toughest media. It takes a certain type of player to be a leader and a winner in this environment.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Tavares has won games for his team and puts up serious points. Does Phaneuf?

He's won more games then Tavares so if that's your point it's a bad one for your argument.

Does anyone here doubt that Tavares is a better and more valuable asset then Phaneuf?

The insane comparisons and arguments here never end.