News Article: Did the Detroit Red Wings Get Better?

[obey86]

It isn't disingenuous to question whether the Wings are rebuilding when you see that they are icing the oldest and most expensive team in the league. I guess you could argue that the Wings are implementing a super secret rebuilding strategy, but then again, you could also argue that the moon landing was fake.

This doesn't make sense. Let's say we could magically replace Zetterberg, Kronwall, Helm, Daley, and Glendening with 5 mediocre 21 year olds. Does that somehow make it so we are rebuilding now? I don't think it changes anything.

If prospects are really good enough they will typically make the team, Maybe the defensive prospects haven't been up the NHL enough but that's probably more due to them all being terrible. If Cholowski or Hronek are good enough this year they will make the team.

 

[obey86]

For starters, long as Holland is here, Helm and Abby are going to need to be in wheelchairs to not get contract renewals. Even then, if one of them can push the other...

As for turning over old jobs to young players, well, I've been hearing that argument for a decade. "Soon as Lidstrom and Holmstrom retire..." then "Soon as Cleary and Datsyuk are gone..." And so on. Each year, Holland finds a way to stuff in some old boys to round out the roster and keep the Wings as one of the most veteran teams to ever veteran.

I'm not all doom and gloom about it, but trust me, this team finds a way to keep the average age up. It's one of those things that was a point of pride (how many of our players beat father time or revived careers), then it was kind of a joke, and now it's a predictable organizational mechanism.

I dont really care what the average age of the team is. As long as they are willing to work good prospects/players like Mantha, Larkin, etc into the everyday lineup when they are ready...there's not much to complain about "rebuilding" wise.

I have no desire to see bunch of crappy young players make the team just because they are young. Now, that doesn't mean I PREFER seeing old players like Kronwall, etc skate around out there....It just doesn't matter to me much either way.

 

[Henkka]

On Babcock era the roster was "full of vets" because Babcock wanted vets.

Now, this current roster is half-kids/half-vets.

And the management is saying that vets are creating an environment for the kids where they development is maximized. They mentor them.

Nothing wrong in here. They are executing a plan, which is obviously too tough to understand many people in here.

***

This was Ken Holland July 1st message on MLIVE.com:

"As we go forward over the next year or two and we're trying to transition from older people, it's important that we're competitive," Holland said. "It's important that we've got some veterans around our kids. At the same time, it's important that our kids are going to get an opportunity. We believe we can make both things happen."

"We're going to give a lot of young players a long look in preseason," Holland said. "The hope is that two or three kids crack our lineup. But they've got to be ready. I don't believe you just put them on the team. The message to these players was you've got to come in and win a job and we're going to give them every opportunity."

Holland said it's important to have veterans around to mentor the youth and for the team to be competitive.

"The longer we can hang in, the better the environment is for everybody - fans, players, especially young players," Holland said. "But also, my focus is probably a little bit down the road. Hopefully we can hang in and be in the playoff race. Some of the young people that were on the team last year need to take another step. We need some of the veteran players to play at the same level or a touch better.

"How good can Rasmussen be? How good can Zadina be? How can good can (Tyler) Bertuzzi be? What does (Anthony) Mantha do this year? What does Dylan Larkin do this year? What does (Andreas) Athanasiou do this year? Dealing with young people, there's no track record. If all those young people can take a little step, we can be relevant. If not enough of those players take a step forward or there's some that step backwards, it's going to affect our ability to compete."

People who can read now understand what is gonna happen, right?

 

[kliq]

On Babcock era the roster was "full of vets" because Babcock wanted vets.

Now, this current roster is half-kids/half-vets.

And the management is saying that vets are creating an environment for the kids where they development is maximized. They mentor them.

Nothing wrong in here. They are executing a plan, which is obviously too tough to understand many people in here.

***

This was Ken Holland July 1st message on MLIVE.com:





Holland said it's important to have veterans around to mentor the youth and for the team to be competitive.





People who can read now understand what is gonna happen, right?

I'm not sure why so many people have such a hard time seeing this, I assume for some people the emotional distress that Holland gave them between 2013-2016 is just too much for them to get over. To me this has been pretty obvious, they want to re-build, but they don't want to tank. Eerything they have done since the streak ended has pointed to this.

 

[Frk It]

On Babcock era the roster was "full of vets" because Babcock wanted vets.

Now, this current roster is half-kids/half-vets.

And the management is saying that vets are creating an environment for the kids where they development is maximized. They mentor them.

Nothing wrong in here. They are executing a plan, which is obviously too tough to understand many people in here.

***

This was Ken Holland July 1st message on MLIVE.com:





Holland said it's important to have veterans around to mentor the youth and for the team to be competitive.





People who can read now understand what is gonna happen, right?

Are you familiar with the word “overkill”?

 

[Heaton]

Weren't we the oldest team in the league last year? I assume we'll be up there again this season.

Obviously if Z retires that changes things, but Holland might bring in another veteran to stay 'competitive'.

 

[obey86]

Weren't we the oldest team in the league last year? I assume we'll be up there again this season.

Obviously if Z retires that changes things, but Holland might bring in another veteran to stay 'competitive'.

I found an article on the the Athletic from Jan 2018, the Wings were the oldest team with an average age of 28.9.

28.9 x 23 = 664.7

Remove Z (37), Kronwall (37), and Daley (34), and replace them with three 23 year olds and that's 39 less years in the total count.

664.7 - 39 = 625.7

625.7 / 23 = 27.2

27.2 is good for 15th oldest team in the league, or middle of the pack (out of 31) basically.

So the difference between the Wings and a middle of the pack NHL team in age is basically a few players on the roster. Who cares? Basically, the Wings have a few older geezers on the roster than a middle of the pack team does....not that big of a difference really. And hell, after one more season, both Z and Kronwall won't even be on the roster anyways.

 

[Heaton]

The team was overwhelmingly veteran last year. Hopefully that changes this year, but more than likely it's two younger players at most.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Babcock wanted Vets? Henkka you really need to stop creating false narratives to excuse Kenny's abysmal signings. I assume Babcock called Kenny while he was coaching the Leafs and told Kenny "I want Gator and Helm in Detroit for another 5+ years." Or maybe Jim Nill told Kenny to sign those players while he was down in Dallas. OR MAYBE it was the one armed man.

Kenny says its important to have vets to mentor the youth and remain competitive. Looks at record and standings. Nope...

 

[Bench]

And hell, after one more season, both Z and Kronwall won't even be on the roster anyways.

See?

Just like when Lidstrom and Homer left. Franzen, Cleary, and Datsyuk. Now it's Z and Kronwall.

The Wings being an old team is built into the DNA of Holland's strategy. But being a bottom 5 team while simultaneously being in the top 5 oldest is an interesting approach.

Maybe the corner is finally turning to a youth movement soon. We'll see. Not going to hold my breath with Kenny making the calls.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

See?

Just like when Lidstrom and Homer left. Franzen, Cleary, and Datsyuk. Now it's Z and Kronwall.

The Wings being an old team is built into the DNA of Holland's strategy. But being a bottom 5 team while simultaneously being in the top 5 oldest is an interesting approach.

Maybe the corner is finally turning to a youth movement soon. We'll see. Not going to hold my breath with Kenny making the calls.

The key to having a young roster is to sign your bottom six depth talent to half decade long deals that start when they turn 30. You clearly just don't get it. You lack Kenny's vision.

 

[Ezekial]

For starters, long as Holland is here, Helm and Abby are going to need to be in wheelchairs to not get contract renewals. Even then, if one of them can push the other...

As for turning over old jobs to young players, well, I've been hearing that argument for a decade. "Soon as Lidstrom and Holmstrom retire..." then "Soon as Cleary and Datsyuk are gone..." And so on. Each year, Holland finds a way to stuff in some old boys to round out the roster and keep the Wings as one of the most veteran teams to ever veteran.

I'm not all doom and gloom about it, but trust me, this team finds a way to keep the average age up. It's one of those things that was a point of pride (how many of our players beat father time or revived careers), then it was kind of a joke, and now it's a predictable organizational mechanism.

I'm hoping Holland is on his last contract, but either way there's a different type of hope behind players like Rasmussen and Zadina taking big strides in replacement value than there was for Nyquist and Tatar. The D is still trash but will have a lot of turnover in the next 3 years, aside from Dekeyser no one is guaranteed to be here.

 

[Pavels Dog]

See?

Just like when Lidstrom and Homer left. Franzen, Cleary, and Datsyuk. Now it's Z and Kronwall.

The Wings being an old team is built into the DNA of Holland's strategy. But being a bottom 5 team while simultaneously being in the top 5 oldest is an interesting approach.

Maybe the corner is finally turning to a youth movement soon. We'll see. Not going to hold my breath with Kenny making the calls.

Average age says more about the past than the future. We have 6 players in the prime-age of 25-30 (Nyquist, Glenny, Witkowski, DD, Jensen, Bernier), those who should have been drafted 2006-2011, when we were the best team in the league.
Inserting 18-20 year olds is rarely optimal so the youth movement takes a little time and doesn’t impact the average age greatly right away. Of course things will change shortly. Z and Kronner won’t play into their 40s. Zadina, Ras, Cholo and Hronek are not Nick Jensen caliber prospects. Vanek, Howard, Ericsson won’t be around forever. Like the Leafs going from old to young in one season we are on the verge of a big turnover, not as drastic but it will happen.

 

[Heaton]

Babcock wanted Vets? Henkka you really need to stop creating false narratives to excuse Kenny's abysmal signings. I assume Babcock called Kenny while he was coaching the Leafs and told Kenny "I want Gator and Helm in Detroit for another 5+ years." Or maybe Jim Nill told Kenny to sign those players while he was down in Dallas. OR MAYBE it was the one armed man.

Kenny says its important to have vets to mentor the youth and remain competitive. Looks at record and standings. Nope...

Babcock was the one who wanted Ericsson and Smith on the team years before there was room. Babcock is not a rebuilding coach, but he wants the best talent regardless of age.

 

[Henkka]

Babcock was the one who wanted Ericsson and Smith on the team years before there was room. Babcock is not a rebuilding coach, but he wants the best talent regardless of age.

He wanted also size. Usually veteran is physically more matured, but also Ericsson and Sheahan (instead of Järnkrok) were fine, because they were big.

On that time our prospect were those lower-round midget reaches, not physically ready. Needed maturing.

Nowadays, totally different, because we have drafted higher which enables more bigger+skilled players. Rasmussen would have been Babcock's call from day 1.

 

[Henkka]

Average age says more about the past than the future. We have 6 players in the prime-age of 25-30 (Nyquist, Glenny, Witkowski, DD, Jensen, Bernier), those who should have been drafted 2006-2011, when we were the best team in the league.
Inserting 18-20 year olds is rarely optimal so the youth movement takes a little time and doesn’t impact the average age greatly right away. Of course things will change shortly. Z and Kronner won’t play into their 40s. Zadina, Ras, Cholo and Hronek are not Nick Jensen caliber prospects. Vanek, Howard, Ericsson won’t be around forever. Like the Leafs going from old to young in one season we are on the verge of a big turnover, not as drastic but it will happen.

I'd like to see calculation where is (Games*Age*Ice-Time).

Many "oldest team in the league" calculation still lnclude Franzen which is hilarious. Also who cares about the age of backup goaltender, 14th forward, 7th D or so...?

 

[jkutswings]

I'd like to see calculation where is (Games*Age*Ice-Time).

Many "oldest team in the league" calculation still lnclude Franzen which is hilarious. Also who cares about the age of backup goaltender, 14th forward, 7th D or so...?

Show me evidence that the next few years will not continue the pattern of adding mediocre veterans to take a majority of the roster spots that open up.

If it's 1-2 young kids each year for a decade, then unless 2 or more of those kids are perennial All Stars, you've spent 10 years to once again become a first round playoff exit.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Show me evidence that the next few years will not continue the pattern of adding mediocre veterans to take a majority of the roster spots that open up.

If it's 1-2 young kids each year for a decade, then unless 2 or more of those kids are perennial All Stars, you've spent 10 years to once again become a first round playoff exit.

Pretty much guaranteed 4 new kids become regulars this season.. could easily become 5+.

Higher quantity and quality of prospects = less need to sign stopgap veterans

 

[jkutswings]

Pretty much guaranteed 4 new kids become regulars this season.. could easily become 5+.

Higher quantity and quality of prospects = less need to sign stopgap veterans

Define "regulars". Rasmussen is the only new kid I see for sure getting even 40 games this year. Zadina maybe, but anybody else is a 9-20 game experiment, which I don't count as a full introduction to the team.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Define "regulars". Rasmussen is the only new kid I see for sure getting even 40 games this year. Zadina maybe, but anybody else is a 9-20 game experiment, which I don't count as a full introduction to the team.

Even with Z playing, zero guys waived, zero injuries and zero TDL sales, we will have 1 young forward and 1 young D on the roster (likely not sitting too much).
There’s about a 0.001% chance that stuff happens and no other kids get at least 20-60 games though.

 

[obey86]

Show me evidence that the next few years will not continue the pattern of adding mediocre veterans to take a majority of the roster spots that open up.

If it's 1-2 young kids each year for a decade, then unless 2 or more of those kids are perennial All Stars, you've spent 10 years to once again become a first round playoff exit.

Please name a team in the NHL that adds more than 1-2 kids to the roster every year that actually are quality players. Bet you can't find one. If there are "only" 1-2 young players making the roster every season THAT ACTUALLY DESERVE TO BE ON THE ROSTER (this is key) i'm not sure what there is to complain about.

The rebuild isn't going to go any faster because players like Mitch Callahan or Axel Holmstrom are gifted roster spots they don't deserve, simply for the sake of meeting some arbitrary "number of new kids on the roster" quota. Larkin made the roster when he was ready, AA made the roster when he was ready, Bertuzzi made the roster when he was ready, Mantha made it when he was ready, Rasmussen will likely make it as he's ready this year, Zadina will be on the team after at most just one season in the AHL, Cholowski/Hronek will make it if they are good enough either this year or next year.

If there's one thing the Red Wings front office is really good at, it's knowing which prospects aren't really very good and don't deserve to be in the NHL. None of the young players they failed to give a chance to have thrived elsewhere in the NHL. The biggest two examples in recent history that I can think of are Janmark and Jarnkrok, and let's not pretend those players were a big loss because they didn't get a chance.