News Article: Did the Detroit Red Wings Get Better?

njx9

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Feb 1, 2016
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Keeping Green and signing Vanek is going to give the young guys a little bit of skill to play with while being bottom 5 and then gain another pick at the deadline.

The kids don't have any skill to play with, currently? Is that not why Nielsen, Abbie, Helm, Glendening, Ericsson, Daley, DDK, Z, Kronwall, and Nyquist (however long the last three are here for) are still on the team? How many mediocre-to-bad vets does this team need to prop up the kids?

Do people really want a defense that relies on someone like Jensen or Kronwall to be trying to move the puck to Larkin, Mantha, Zadina and Rasmussen? How are they going to develop if they have literally no one that can move the puck? Green isnt great anymore but the guy can still skate and move the puck adnd has some offensive awareness

How often do you think Green is going to be playing with Larkin, Mantha, Zadina and Ras? Given that they're going to spend substantial time with guys who aren't Mike "Some Offensive Awareness" Green, they're still going to be subjected to guys like Jensen and Kronwall. Is their development forever stunted, now?

This is ridiculous. At some point, the team has enough veteran "leadership" or "Winning Culture(tm)" and y'all ought to consider what might happen if it had playing space/time for "actual talent".

We were 3 points out of the bottom 3. With Green. Keeping the team steady means a bounce or two away from the last 2-3 spots.

So it's your view that literally none of our kids will improve. Got it.
 

ricky0034

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Jun 8, 2010
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Since 2015 draft we have 10+ Dmen in our system. Any specifics on whom you think fits those 1st pairing & low end 2nd/3rd pairing disappointments?

Cholo, Hronek
Lindstrom-Saarijarvi
Sulak-Hicketts
McIssac-Regula
Kotkinsalo-Setkov

I was referring to the Defensemen we passed up in this years draft to take Zadina
 

njx9

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Feb 1, 2016
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I have been fortunate enough to see a few draft boards over the years. The general public would be amazed at what they actually look like in my opinion.

I'd actually be really interested to know what you think would be surprising (unless it just boils down to "they rank guys really differently than this board does"). From some experience on the NFL side, I know that teams would frequently prioritize play styles in interesting ways (e.g. the big shifts in defensive fronts, or blocking schemes), but I don't really know how that would manifest on an NHL board, where you're drafting teenagers.
 

Ghost of Ethan Hunt

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I was referring to the Defensemen we passed up in this years draft to take Zadina

Hughes-2nd pair to #6/bust, PP#1/Pp#2, sheltered defensively. (size) (Bryan Berard?...before the eye injury)
Bouch-#3 PP specialist, slightly above average defensively (Mike Green last 5 years?)
Dobson-#3 rock defensively (Mattias Nordstrom)
Boqvist-#4 to #6/7 bust (size & concussions) (small injury prone Letang?)
 

jkutswings

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Jul 10, 2014
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Hughes-2nd pair to #6/bust, PP#1/Pp#2, sheltered defensively. (size) (Bryan Berard?...before the eye injury)
Bouch-#3 PP specialist, slightly above average defensively (Mike Green last 5 years?)
Dobson-#3 rock defensively (Mattias Nordstrom)
Boqvist-#4 to #6/7 bust (size & concussions) (small injury prone Letang?)
Per TSN, right before the draft:

Quinn Hughes
https://www.tsn.ca/quinn-hughes-defence-1.1085784

"He plays a go-go-go offensive game, at times more like a rover than a defenceman. He’s fearless, not afraid to make high risk, high reward but also high danger plays."

Projection: Top 2 Dynamic Defenceman
Comparable: Morgan Rielly


Evan Bouchard
https://www.tsn.ca/evan-bouchard-defence-1.1085789

"The heady 6-foot-2 blueliner is arguably the best passer in the game. Long bombs, short outlets to get the attack started, he can do it all. " - Bob McKenzie

Projection: Top 2 Two-Way Defenceman
Comparable: John Carlson


Noah Dobson
https://www.tsn.ca/noah-dobson-defence-1.1085791

"Dobson is a strong skater with a high degree of creativity, vision and offensive prowess. Scouts feel we’re only seeing the tip of the iceberg here." - Bob McKenzie

Projection: Top 2 Two-Way Defenceman
Comparable: Seth Jones


Which is why I wanted Dobson, even over Zadina. But I suspect Detroit took the forward because they ranked him higher than I did, and the blue liner lower than I did.

(For reference, here's Zadina: )

https://www.tsn.ca/filip-zadina-left-wing-1.1085732

"Zadina has quick hands and feet, he thrives in tight spaces and small spaces and is able to get off an incredible release on a shot that is arguably the best in the draft, as his 44 goals in 57 games would attest." - Bob McKenzie

Projection: Elite Skilled Winger
Comparable: David Pastrnak
 

newfy

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Jul 28, 2010
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The kids don't have any skill to play with, currently? Is that not why Nielsen, Abbie, Helm, Glendening, Ericsson, Daley, DDK, Z, Kronwall, and Nyquist (however long the last three are here for) are still on the team? How many mediocre-to-bad vets does this team need to prop up the kids?



How often do you think Green is going to be playing with Larkin, Mantha, Zadina and Ras? Given that they're going to spend substantial time with guys who aren't Mike "Some Offensive Awareness" Green, they're still going to be subjected to guys like Jensen and Kronwall. Is their development forever stunted, now?

This is ridiculous. At some point, the team has enough veteran "leadership" or "Winning Culture(tm)" and y'all ought to consider what might happen if it had playing space/time for "actual talent".

While I dont mind the winning culture thing thats irrelevant to my point. How often do I think Green will play with those guys? All the time on the PP, probably the most mins 5 on 5 as well. None of the dmen you listed are offensive dmen. You want to list Kronwall, he was a great dman 5 years ago that got his money for being good thats why hes still here. But he isnt anymore and they need a guy to move the puck.

Nielsen abby all the rest of those guys are completely pointless to list because theyre not dmen. Greeen isnt actually a bad vet, hes still a very solid offensive dman which the wings completely lack. I think you know the difference but want something to complain about, if you dont know the difference you should watch a little more hockey some time
 

Shaman464

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May 1, 2009
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I don’t think that only reaches that deviate from the rankings make smart picks, personally.

I can agree there was some luck with what went down. But I’ve been wanting a draft like this with some high end skilled players for awhile now. So it’s just annoying when we finally do it and have a draft most people feel good about we can’t just say “good job Wings”... we have to find a way to disqualify it.

But that’s just my .02

I think the article does brush off what could be one of the best players in the draft and Detroit going for him over a defender.
 

Ghost of Ethan Hunt

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Per TSN, right before the draft:

Quinn Hughes
https://www.tsn.ca/quinn-hughes-defence-1.1085784

"He plays a go-go-go offensive game, at times more like a rover than a defenceman. He’s fearless, not afraid to make high risk, high reward but also high danger plays."

Projection: Top 2 Dynamic Defenceman
Comparable: Morgan Rielly


Evan Bouchard
https://www.tsn.ca/evan-bouchard-defence-1.1085789

"The heady 6-foot-2 blueliner is arguably the best passer in the game. Long bombs, short outlets to get the attack started, he can do it all. " - Bob McKenzie

Projection: Top 2 Two-Way Defenceman
Comparable: John Carlson


Noah Dobson
https://www.tsn.ca/noah-dobson-defence-1.1085791

"Dobson is a strong skater with a high degree of creativity, vision and offensive prowess. Scouts feel we’re only seeing the tip of the iceberg here." - Bob McKenzie

Projection: Top 2 Two-Way Defenceman
Comparable: Seth Jones


Which is why I wanted Dobson, even over Zadina. But I suspect Detroit took the forward because they ranked him higher than I did, and the blue liner lower than I did.

(For reference, here's Zadina: )

https://www.tsn.ca/filip-zadina-left-wing-1.1085732

"Zadina has quick hands and feet, he thrives in tight spaces and small spaces and is able to get off an incredible release on a shot that is arguably the best in the draft, as his 44 goals in 57 games would attest." - Bob McKenzie

Projection: Elite Skilled Winger
Comparable: David Pastrnak

Yeah, I've read the TSN Bob McK reviews & comps before, I was just posting what I think their ceilings & floors are & my own set of comparables. Your thoughts on my review/comps??
 

Shaman464

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May 1, 2009
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Boston, MA
Per TSN, right before the draft:

Quinn Hughes
https://www.tsn.ca/quinn-hughes-defence-1.1085784

"He plays a go-go-go offensive game, at times more like a rover than a defenceman. He’s fearless, not afraid to make high risk, high reward but also high danger plays."

Projection: Top 2 Dynamic Defenceman
Comparable: Morgan Rielly


Evan Bouchard
https://www.tsn.ca/evan-bouchard-defence-1.1085789

"The heady 6-foot-2 blueliner is arguably the best passer in the game. Long bombs, short outlets to get the attack started, he can do it all. " - Bob McKenzie

Projection: Top 2 Two-Way Defenceman
Comparable: John Carlson


Noah Dobson
https://www.tsn.ca/noah-dobson-defence-1.1085791

"Dobson is a strong skater with a high degree of creativity, vision and offensive prowess. Scouts feel we’re only seeing the tip of the iceberg here." - Bob McKenzie

Projection: Top 2 Two-Way Defenceman
Comparable: Seth Jones


Which is why I wanted Dobson, even over Zadina. But I suspect Detroit took the forward because they ranked him higher than I did, and the blue liner lower than I did.

(For reference, here's Zadina: )

https://www.tsn.ca/filip-zadina-left-wing-1.1085732

"Zadina has quick hands and feet, he thrives in tight spaces and small spaces and is able to get off an incredible release on a shot that is arguably the best in the draft, as his 44 goals in 57 games would attest." - Bob McKenzie

Projection: Elite Skilled Winger
Comparable: David Pastrnak

I think Zadina was a no brainer, but Detroit should have gone all in on trying to grab one of the Islander's 2 top 15 picks. Anyone not named Larkin should have been on the table.
 

HIFE

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May 10, 2011
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Detroit, MI
I think HF does a much better job bashing Ken Holland and the Red Wings! This blog piece was pretty shallow compared to some of the analysis and criticism over the past 2 seasons. I get it's supposed to be a quick take on the off-season but the guy comes off as uninformed.

"It seems that the only individuals with a stake in this team who aren’t clamouring for a rebuild are the ones who run it. Every year, Holland & Co. slap band-aids over deep organizational problems, and every year their roster puts forth a worse effort."

Kind of amusing but probably a few years late. What the author can't discern is that there's at least some type of acceptance now by the organization that they're in a state of transition. A second year with a top 10 pick and the future truly feels brighter to a lot of fans. The Wings are rebuilding... just in the way they want and at a pace that is frustrating to many, but I wouldn't expect an outsider such as a Leaf's fan to understand the subtleties of evaluating Detroit's position after such a glorious 25 year run.

That said, I think the Wings very easily end up #31 this season. Who is worse? Take last years performance and then age Ericsson, Kronwall, Nielsen, etc., the entire list of names people complain about. If the offense stays dried up, if Howard isn't sharp- the Wings could go off the rails early. As much as I enjoy Larkin and Mantha I don't see them as enough to topple other #1 lines on a consistent basis. This could be the year we hit rock-bottom.
 

Claypool

Registered User
Jan 12, 2009
13,670
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That said, I think the Wings very easily end up #31 this season. Who is worse?

Buffalo
Montreal
Ottawa
New York (I)
New York (R)
Vancouver
Arizona
Carolina

*If Zetterberg plays the entire season
 

HIFE

Registered User
May 10, 2011
3,219
250
Detroit, MI
Buffalo
Montreal
Ottawa
New York (I)
New York (R)
Vancouver
Arizona
Carolina

*If Zetterberg plays the entire season

:laugh: Yeah I guess we're splitting hairs here. Rangers are the only team openly "rebuilding", might be hard to surpass that.

But shall I pull up the photo of Jimmy from a month ago? lol. I believe he was the Wings' MVP and if he falters at all, look out...
 

Oddbob

Registered User
Jan 21, 2016
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:laugh: Yeah I guess we're splitting hairs here. Rangers are the only team openly "rebuilding", might be hard to surpass that.

But shall I pull up the photo of Jimmy from a month ago? lol. I believe he was the Wings' MVP and if he falters at all, look out...

Jimmy being a little bigger actually helps in his position! Less room for pucks to get past him! :naughty:

I don't think we finish 31st! Buffalo is still not much better than a year ago, and Dahlin is a rookie, so he may not adjust as quickly as everyone is predicting. Also, Eichel has yet to show he is elite, as of now, he is just quite good. Ottawa is my pick for last, they are a train wreck, and only going to get worse, once Karlsson is dealt, regardless who they get back. Montreal is also a bottom contender, as is Vancouver, plus there is always a surprise team that falls to the bottom inexplicably. Just like there is always a team that does really well from seemingly nowhere. I think the Wings finish about where we have the past 2 seasons, unless Zadina does what I hope, and lights it up and pushes us to a better finish than we expect.
 

Pavels Dog

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Feb 18, 2013
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So it's your view that literally none of our kids will improve. Got it.
I think we have completely different outlooks, but I would rather see a supporting cast good enough if the kids do improve rather than watch prospects explode and still miss the playoffs like the Isles/Flames/etc. If AA for example puts it together he could work magic with Vanek. If Cholo has a Werenski entrance to the NHL a pairing with Green could be great.
That support structure has been lacking in a lot of rebuilding teams which is why they seem to struggle even when the McDavids and Eichels and so on enter. I’d rather see a borderline prospect held back a little bit than a an amazing prospect who doesn’t have enough support around him.
 

Ezekial

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Seriously doubt that.
Cool?

The year after Liddy retired we took the Cup champs to 7 games after being up 3-1. I think Suter and Parise coulda helped a little.

Not surprising a dude still rocking the tired "tiesgo2vets" moniker would be pessimistic about our chances.
 

njx9

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Feb 1, 2016
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While I dont mind the winning culture thing thats irrelevant to my point. How often do I think Green will play with those guys? All the time on the PP, probably the most mins 5 on 5 as well.

So you think Green will be stapled to 4 forwards on the power play and "most" of the time at ES? I assume you think then, that Ras and Zadina (if Zadina makes it) will play full time, all the time, on the top line. That's... ambitious.

None of the dmen you listed are offensive dmen. You want to list Kronwall, he was a great dman 5 years ago that got his money for being good thats why hes still here. But he isnt anymore and they need a guy to move the puck.

I have no idea what you think you're talking about, here. I listed the other players on the roster, who these guys will inevitably be playing with. It seems extremely unlikely to me that Green will only play with those 4 forwards, and that those 4 forwards will never play not with Green (or even that they'll spend the majority of their time on the ice with him). Apparently, you think otherwise.

Nielsen abby all the rest of those guys are completely pointless to list because theyre not dmen. Greeen isnt actually a bad vet, hes still a very solid offensive dman which the wings completely lack.

???? You said there was no skill on the roster to play with and referenced Vanek.

Your exact words were: "Keeping Green and signing Vanek is going to give the young guys a little bit of skill to play with"

I think you know the difference but want something to complain about, if you dont know the difference you should watch a little more hockey some time

:rolleyes: Ok, we're done here.
 

Steve Yzerlland

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Jul 18, 2018
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Cool?

The year after Liddy retired we took the Cup champs to 7 games after being up 3-1. I think Suter and Parise coulda helped a little.

Not surprising a dude still rocking the tired "tiesgo2vets" moniker would be pessimistic about our chances.
If they would have gotten past Chicago it would still have been 2 more rounds to the cup they weren’t even half way. And my “moniker” has nothing to do with your baseless claim that adding Parise and Suter would automatically have guaranteed another cup and would have been worth owning these bad contracts now... but nice try bud.
 

Ezekial

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If they would have gotten past Chicago it would still have been 2 more rounds to the cup they weren’t even half way. And my “moniker” has nothing to do with your baseless claim that adding Parise and Suter would automatically have guaranteed another cup and would have been worth owning these bad contracts now... but nice try bud.

Oh please,
Why? Could've added another cup...
COULD - used to indicate possibility.
You we're the one "seriously doubting" things
 

Ezekial

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Doubting = the possibility of doubt.Anyway the wings are lucky they said no and that’s a fact.
If they would've been able to finagle 1 with them, it would be worth it. They definitely would've been a better team with them, and there wasn't "no hope" so it's possible, I gave you a tangible example - you didn't accept it.

It's not a fact it's your opinion, when you realize that you'll be better off for it.
 

WingedWheel1987

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Jan 11, 2011
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I definitely think Suter gets Detroit to the WCF.

Kronwall was the reason the Wings lost game seven against Chicago with his patented "screen my own goalie" strategy. The Wings still had enough offense from Z and D that made them very dangerous and adding a 30 minute a night #1 D would have covered up most of Detroit's flaws.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

The jersey ad still sucks
Mar 4, 2004
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No idea what you mean with the first sentence in that 2nd paragraph. I do not think this was some no-brainier choice, I guess that's just where we disagree fundamentally.

The draft is all about making the best decision for your team possible, and it's entirely possible that we passed on guys who become impact players at a position we have been desperate to fill for forever.

In every draft it's always entirely possible to pass on a guys who become impact players. It actually happens every draft. So in that way no pick is a no-brainer in that it's a guarantee, other than the rare generational talent.

The blueline for the Wings is awful. But they were also 28th in Goals per Game last season. They have some young players that should be able to help with scoring but they still lack elite talent up front. Which is why it makes sense to take the best player available. The defense sucks but the Wings need top end talent in every position.

All I meant by the revisionist history comment is that if Zadina doesn't pan out, that just happens sometimes with prospects. I wouldn't fault Holland for it because Zadina was so consistently ranked and valued at the time of the draft. Anyone trying to blame Holland would be doing so in hindsight and ignoring how people felt about Zadina at the time of the pick.
 

Syckle78

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Nov 5, 2011
14,585
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Hughes-2nd pair to #6/bust, PP#1/Pp#2, sheltered defensively. (size) (Bryan Berard?...before the eye injury)
Bouch-#3 PP specialist, slightly above average defensively (Mike Green last 5 years?)
Dobson-#3 rock defensively (Mattias Nordstrom)
Boqvist-#4 to #6/7 bust (size & concussions) (small injury prone Letang?)
God this is such a gross habit of random. Let's completely shit on the guys we didn't take.
 

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