Did signing Tavares lead to the Leafs' downfall?

[AvroArrow]

1) Signing Babcock

2) Trading Kadri for Barrie. We needed a defensive d-man, not Barrie. Trading Kadri was the right decision given C depth BUT Barrie was not the answer. He cannot play D and this trade made us far worse. We needed to address our blueline, Dubas traded for the wrong type of d-man. Not saying we should have traded for these players but these TYPE of players. (Hedman, Weber) type of guys. Strong defensive players that can still contribute offensively. Barrie is supposed to be an offensive d man, but he has not provided anything on either side of the ice.

3) Going with all skill/speed players and no grit/physicality. These guys get bullied around every game, ragdolled, no one stands up for anyone. It's humiliating as a leafs fan to watch. You see opposing players make dirty hits, runs at the goalie and not a single one of these princesses stands up for anyone. There's no physical aspect, teams skate around unpunished, there's not fear of being hit and teams abuse these soft kids.

4) No backup goalie. I don't think we've won a single game with our backup since like January.

Signing Tavares was an amazing move, but choosing soft "skill" players to round out the roster is a huge mistake. Tavares signing wasn't the "downfall" it was all of the above.

 

[Not Canada Drai]

Not alone, but it was an awful move that started a snowball.

 

[Stercrazy]

He single handedly won them their only playoff series win wtf is this lol

JT showed flashes but I don't believe I can remember a single game, regular season or not, where he "took over a game". If you look at the top players in the NHL making 9, 10, 11 mill per year, JT is just not in the same category. He's a good player and at times very good but not a great player. He's slow, barely can win a face off and doesn't play well defensively.

I truly believe LL didn't want to re-sign him and told him as much. JT was never a great captain and TML are finding out what type of player he really is. Buyer beware!

 

[AvroArrow]

JT showed flashes but I don't believe I can remember a single game, regular season or not, where he "took over a game". If you look at the top players in the NHL making 9, 10, 11 mill per year, JT is just not in the same category. He's a good player and at times very good but not a great player. He's slow, barely can win a face off and doesn't play well defensively.

I truly believe LL didn't want to re-sign him and told him as much. JT was never a great captain and TML are finding out what type of player he really is. Buyer beware!

For a player that was so bad, Isles fans seem awfully salty about him leaving. Management apparently didnt want to re-sign him so instead of booing LL they boo him and talk shit all over social media ? got it.

 

[BrockLobster]

For a player that was so bad, Isles fans seem awfully salty about him leaving. Management apparently didnt want to re-sign him so instead of booing LL they boo him and talk **** all over social media ? got it.

Huh. Isles offered him a contract. Larger than what he took to go to the promised land.

 

[Kevin27NYI]

For a player that was so bad, Isles fans seem awfully salty about him leaving. Management apparently didnt want to re-sign him so instead of booing LL they boo him and talk **** all over social media ? got it.

No you don't 'got it'.

 

[authentic]

JT showed flashes but I don't believe I can remember a single game, regular season or not, where he "took over a game". If you look at the top players in the NHL making 9, 10, 11 mill per year, JT is just not in the same category. He's a good player and at times very good but not a great player. He's slow, barely can win a face off and doesn't play well defensively.

I truly believe LL didn't want to re-sign him and told him as much. JT was never a great captain and TML are finding out what type of player he really is. Buyer beware!

Hahaha! He just scored 47 goals his first season here and he dominated in your only playoff series win against Florida in 2016, like it was one of the most dominant and clutch playoff performances in recent times and I said as much while it was happening and I was far from an Islanders or Tavares fan at the time. I can't even make this stuff up the statistics speak for themselves.

 

[Paperbagofglory]

I think teams that try to predict trends but end up going to much one way. What i mean is the speedy skilled teams were a thing that was starting to phase out the bruiser type teams like the Kings. Its why the Oilers and Chiarelli failed, he tried to build a team in that same Kings and Bruins style even when the league was going more for speed and transition play. I think the Leafs management took it too far and went all in on skill and speed. Hell they even traded for a pretty weak defender in Barrie thinking that his offense will offset any weaknesses defensively. Dubas seemed to think you can outscore your problems.

Speedy and skilled is definitely a trend that's sticking for now, but you still need to balance your roster with some grit for the playoffs. The leafs thought 80's hockey is coming back or their Analytics department messed up big time. Whether skill or Tom Wilson type forwards are your preference, we have learned that you never want your roster to be to too much of one style in this modern era. You need speed and skill but you also need players that won't cower from the physicality and be able to impose their will a little bit. You can be tough and not be a physical player. Meaning as long as you are tough on the puck and feisty. The Leafs would kill to have a personality type of Brendan Gallagher.

All their big time forwards are passive pansies.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Leafs fans hate on Marner yet go into complete freefall when he gets injured. At least Marner was able to carry the team to wins when Matthews goes out.

Also looks like Marner was more responsible for Tavares' success last year than some would have you believe.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Also looks like Marner was more responsible for Tavares' success last year than some would have you believe.

I recall us agreeing on Tavares when people were penciling him in as a 100 pt player when he was suddenly going to be surrounded by more talented players. He is not. I compared him to being a Kessel like producer. He had virtually the same points production he had with the isles the year before. He is what he is a 75-80 pts player on average regardless of teams. This year he is below this and at 11m per for 5 years more after this year when the decline will happen that contract is just going to be an albatross.

 

[authentic]

I think teams that try to predict trends but end up going to much one way. What i mean is the speedy skilled teams were a thing that was starting to phase out the bruiser type teams like the Kings. Its why the Oilers and Chiarelli failed, he tried to build a team in that same Kings and Bruins style even when the league was going more for speed and transition play. I think the Leafs management took it too far and went all in on skill and speed. Hell they even traded for a pretty weak defender in Barrie thinking that his offense will offset any weaknesses defensively. Dubas seemed to think you can outscore your problems.

Speedy and skilled is definitely a trend that's sticking for now, but you still need to balance your roster with some grit for the playoffs. The leafs thought 80's hockey is coming back or their Analytics department messed up big time. Whether skill or Tom Wilson type forwards are your preference, we have learned that you never want your roster to be to too much of one style in this modern era. You need speed and skill but you also need players that won't cower from the physicality and be able to impose their will a little bit. You can be tough and not be a physical player. Meaning as long as you are tough on the puck and feisty. The Leafs would kill to have a personality type of Brendan Gallagher.

All their big time forwards are passive pansies.

Zachary Hyman, but yes I mostly agree.

 

[viper0220]

I told John Tavares to come to Calgary but he had to post the picture of himself peeping the Leafs bed linen.

 

[authentic]

Also looks like Marner was more responsible for Tavares' success last year than some would have you believe.

There was no doubt to me who was the better player mostly of the two last season, it was indeed Marner.

 

[Hunn]

He single handedly won them their only playoff series win wtf is this lol

He led the Isles to a single playoff win in 9 years, they did the same in the very first season without him.

 

[Paralyzer]

I've said it when the Leafs signed him and I'll say it again. This would come back to haunt them cap-wise and keeping their team from reaching the contending level due to no money left to upgrade the defence and goaltending. So far, this has been the case.

 

[Talain]

For a player that was so bad, Isles fans seem awfully salty about him leaving. Management apparently didnt want to re-sign him so instead of booing LL they boo him and talk **** all over social media ? got it.

LL absolutely tried to bring him back, and even offered him more money than what he ultimately signed with Toronto for. The reason why us Islander fans so despise him is the manner in which he did it, stringing the Islanders along as though he intended to resign with them. If he had been honest/been able to make up his mind from the beginning then LL could have pursued other options on the UFA market; instead by the time he announced his decision and signed with Toronto all of the other top-6 forwards on the UFA market had already signed with other teams.

In hindsight, LL should have looked to land a second line center on the UFA market (Barzal having already established himself as a legitimate top center) and if one had signed before Tavares then withdraw any offers to Tavares if he were to no longer fit with the organization's plans; it would have been classic Lou as Lou is about as far from sentimental as one could get. (His son Chris also works for the organization. I can think of no one for whom having their dad as the head of their company or organization would provide any less job security).

Things may have turned out just fine for the Islanders in the end, but no thanks to that little stunt that Pajama Boy pulled during the summer of 2018.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I recall us agreeing on Tavares when people were penciling him in as a 100 pt player when he was suddenly going to be surrounded by more talented players. He is not. I compared him to being a Kessel like producer. He had virtually the same points production he had with the isles the year before. He is what he is a 75-80 pts player on average regardless of teams. This year he is below this and at 11m per for 5 years more after this year when the decline will happen that contract is just going to be an albatross.

I'm not saying all fans think this way, but I just think there's still a significant segment of fans who seem to believe Tavares has this untapped potential, this other level, that he hasn't reached yet. I just don't think that's the case. He is what he is at this point, and that's not going to change just because he's suddenly playing with elite linemates.

And that's why I think he's getting paid too much. He's a roughly point per game guy getting paid as though he's a perennial 100 point, Art Ross contender.

 

[KevinRedkey]

There's 2 ways to look at this.

1. Tavares was/is an ultra talented player that would make the team better. Very close to a once-in-a-lifetime UFA signing that is hard to pass up for 'free' (players like him usually cost a high draft pick or big trade assets).

2. Tavares was/is a luxury and not a need. With Matthews and Kadri, the top 2 C positions were filled, and Tavares (though making the team better), led to cap troubles. These cap troubles are currently handcuffing the Leafs.

Hypothetically, if they didn't sign Tavares...
2C Tavares = Kadri (+6.500 cap)
3C Kerfoot = UFA like Brassard, Boyle, or Spezza (+2.750-ish)
4C Spezza = Marleau (-5.500)
2D Barrie = Gardiner (-1.300)
Total: +2.500 (probably a little more since Matthews/Marner might take without JT in TOR)
So, instead of Tavares, they could have the above and their 1st rounder. One could argue Tavares is worth the extra ~2.500 and a 1st though.

Either way, I don't think you can blame the Leafs for signing him.

 

[Durrr]

Signing Tavares wasn't their mistake. Giving into Nylander was and neglecting defense and goaltending was.

I understand as Islanders that losing Tavares really sucked for us and I get that us playing very well the past few seasons and the Leafs struggling this season severely helps heal that wound...but make no mistake about it: any team in the NHL is better with him in their lineup (yes even us this season would be better with him).

Giving into Nylander? The guy is our second most dangerous player almost every night, and yet we're going to complain about his contract still? If the Leafs right this ship soon enough, the guy is going to finish with 70+ points easily. His contract is fine.

I'd be much more concerned about the other 3 forwards making 33 million as a reason for why we can't be competitive then the guy who is appropriately paid at 6.9

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

There's 2 ways to look at this.

1. Tavares was/is an ultra talented player that would make the team better. Very close to a once-in-a-lifetime UFA signing that is hard to pass up for 'free' (players like him usually cost a high draft pick or big trade assets).

2. Tavares was/is a luxury and not a need. With Matthews and Kadri, the top 2 C positions were filled, and Tavares (though making the team better), led to cap troubles. These cap troubles are currently handcuffing the Leafs.

Hypothetically, if they didn't sign Tavares...
2C Tavares = Kadri (+6.500 cap)
3C Kerfoot = UFA like Brassard, Boyle, or Spezza (+2.750-ish)
4C Spezza = Marleau (-5.500)
2D Barrie = Gardiner (-1.300)
Total: +2.500 (probably a little more since Matthews/Marner might take without JT in TOR)
So, instead of Tavares, they could have the above and their 1st rounder. One could argue Tavares is worth the extra ~2.500 and a 1st though.

Either way, I don't think you can blame the Leafs for signing him.

I think the minor flaw in this line of thinking (ie. Leafs HAD to either spend $11 million on Tavares or someone else) is the idea that the money had to be spent then and there. It's not necessarily a case of "well what defenseman was available that the money should be spent on instead?", but the fact that you've tied your hands for the next 7 seasons from being unable to touch that money and use it elsewhere.

Maybe there was no single defenseman available at that very moment, but now that money's not available for 7 years. Who knows if Doughty becomes available if LA decides to go full rebuild? Who knows if St. Louis gets in a bind and has to deal someone like Parayko or Pietrangelo? It wasn't necessarily about either signing Tavares or signing a defenseman who was available on that specific date and time. It's about committing that cap space for the next 7 years that now isn't available to improve the roster if and when someone becomes available.

 

[BHD]

Crazy how much the perception of a player changes when he leaves for a different team.

 

[authentic]

He led the Isles to a single playoff win in 9 years, they did the same in the very first season without him.

I won't lie I forgot this happened lol. Anyway it doesn't change what I said, he single handedly won you that series against Florida, I watched every game because before that I was never truly aware of how good he really was and it caught my attention. It's not just me thinking this either there were polls ranking him a top 5 forward at the time which he likely was, unfortunately he's not even close anymore though in my opinion.

 

[Pure Slaughter Value]

Crazy how much the perception of a player changes when he leaves for a different team.

Bizarre.

He went from being not worthy of Hart consideration on the Island to being one of the five best centers in the league to now (a year later) being a scapegoat for the Leafs having a weak D. Really fairweather, those Leafs fans

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Bizarre.

He went from being not worthy of Hart consideration on the Island to being one of the five best centers in the league to now (a year later) being a scapegoat for the Leafs having a weak D. Really fairweather, those Leafs fans

I've been one of the consistent ones. I've been calling him overrated even when he was an Islander.

 

[Fataldogg]

Paying guys like Matthew's, Marner, and Nylander to ridiculous contracts before they have proven anything was their downfall.

And once you get that pay day, what else is there to prove? They already got their money. Now you have to hope they are intrinsically motivated.

Stop paying huge amounts of money to people who have proven nothing.