Did Dubas Trade away a future Conn Smythe Winner in Nazem Kadri?

[BrannigansLaw]

Stating facts, that are publicly available, as stated by the team is attacking his reputation. I mean these are the things he did. Yes, when a team says, if his happens one more time, he goes... he goes. Is that hard for you to understand?

Well the team did an outstanding job then. Just look at where that moral high ground has gotten us. Such valor to trade away a potential Conn Smythe winner.

 

[ToneDog]

Well the team did an outstanding job then. Just look at where that moral high ground has gotten us. Such valor to trade away a potential Conn Smythe winner.

This organization traded the Big M, McDonald and Sittler out of spike. You think they would learn.

 

[hamzarocks]

Again, you seem to miss the point. Do you have kids? If you tell a kid, if you do this X will happen. If X happens, you carry through. They did... that's the end of it. He was a problem player in the organization, and forced their hand. They gave him warnings, and he blew it.

What warnings? He wasn't in any team trouble since Babcock joined. The issues were only discussed in 2013, 2014 and 2015

2016 to 2019 he wasn't veiwed like that any more and was a team leader

He got dealt because dubas wanted to make a big move and he was our best chip in the 2019 offseason as Nylander had a horrific year of hockey so he couldn't couldn't dealt.

Kadri getting suspended twice didn't change the fact he had 3 years left on his deal at 4.5M and had shown to be a quality 2nd line center before being dropped to the third line in 2019.

We misused him in 2019 and it impacted his production. He was moved at a time where his value was lower than it should be. We held onto Nylander in 2019 taking the bet he'd bounce back.

Should have done tbe same with Kadri

 

[Arthur Morgan]

No... he wasn't trade simply because of a couple of playoff suspensions.

Years of run ins with management and coaching, internal suspensions, being call immature publicly, having team meetings with his parents... and then finally the playoff suspensions. It was years of problem behaviour, and being told, this happens again, your gone... and he did... so... move on.

well this all was part of it I just couldnt remember all the reasons. the 2 suspensions is what pushed things over the line. but still would have been nice to give that lineup one last try. Matthews-Tavares and Kadri could have been so nice if we got to see all 3 go without suspensions or freak injuries

 

[Trapper]

It takes the right core to win and the right mix of guys at (3/4 mil) support. Kadri/Brown/etc.

Right now Leafs have shown neither and won nothing.

Did the Leafs win the trade? Again I will remind you the Leafs have won nothing.

The narrative for the Kadri trade here is the same mind set for the team. Always trying to prove we didn’t lose something or we lost because of….insert reason.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Makar is significantly more important for the Avs. Kadri is to Makar, as Rielly is to Matthews.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

well this all was part of it I just couldnt remember all the reasons. the 2 suspensions is what pushed things over the line. but still would have been nice to give that lineup one last try. Matthews-Tavares and Kadri could have been so nice if we got to see all 3 go without suspensions or freak injuries

We would have needed to wait until this year for that to happen.

This deal is so overblown on here. Kerfoot ended up with 14 fewer ES points than Kadri did in Colorado (with only 150 more ES minutes played in total) despite Kadri playing in a more pure offensive role than Kerfoot does here. The main difference in their raw production comes from Kadri playing top PP minutes, which he would not get here, while Kerfoot playing top PK minutes without any PP. Kerfoot is an excellent PKer.

And then of course there is the playoff production, but Kadri had 6 points in 12 games across 3 playoff series with the Leafs (excluding 2013) from 26-28. Kerfoot, at 25-27, put up 11 in 19 games and, once again, this is without much in terms of PP time.

And that is just comparing Kerfoot vs. Kadri; completely ignoring the fact that we got Barrie @ 50% for a full year in that deal, and the fact that we have another year on Kerfoot's deal which we can ultimately trade for assets while Kadri is a pending UFA.

Some Leafs fans are hanging on hope that it would eventually be different under Kadri despite continuously finding himself in trouble for the same things (even once he left) and even struggling with inconsistency for 2 years with Colorado until he finally broke out in a contract year. Meanwhile, they have little patience for other players/coaches/GM's who are on our team... Even though I bet they would say the exact same thing if they left and found success with another team (which, for much of those people, is doing nothing really different than what they are currently doing other than finding a way to win a series).

 

[TheKule]

Was it not just last year that Avs fans were blaming Kadri for their playoff exit?

I love Nazem but the trade was uniformally viewed as a Dubas win at the time.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Makar is significantly more important for the Avs. Kadri is to Makar, as Rielly is to Matthews.

I mean... MacKinnon, Rantanen, and Landeskog are all pretty high up there too. Arguably more so than Kadri.

It is like saying if Rielly, Tavares, or Nylander deserved to win the Conn Smythe on a team that was being led by Matthews and Marner.

 

[67leafs]

I think marriage has been good for Kadri…..
no bone head moves in a while now.
he’s a great player that the leafs should have kept imo

 

[Arthur Morgan]

We would have needed to wait until this year for that to happen.

This deal is so overblown on here. Kerfoot ended up with 14 fewer ES points than Kadri did in Colorado (with only 150 more ES minutes played in total) despite Kadri playing in a more pure offensive role than Kerfoot does here. The main difference in their raw production comes from Kadri playing top PP minutes, which he would not get here, while Kerfoot playing top PK minutes without any PP. Kerfoot is an excellent PKer.

And then of course there is the playoff production, but Kadri had 6 points in 12 games across 3 playoff series with the Leafs (excluding 2013) from 26-28. Kerfoot, at 25-27, put up 11 in 19 games and, once again, this is without much in terms of PP time.

And that is just comparing Kerfoot vs. Kadri; completely ignoring the fact that we got Barrie @ 50% for a full year in that deal, and the fact that we have another year on Kerfoot's deal which we can ultimately trade for assets while Kadri is a pending UFA.

Some Leafs fans are hanging on hope that it would eventually be different under Kadri despite continuously finding himself in trouble for the same things (even once he left) and even struggling with inconsistency for 2 years with Colorado until he finally broke out in a contract year. Meanwhile, they have little patience for other players/coaches/GM's who are on our team... Even though I bet they would say the exact same thing if they left and found success with another team (which, for much of those players, is doing nothing really different than what they are currently doing other than winning a series).

I agree with you I still just wanted to see that lineup be given one last chance. and there`s no saying things would have worked out the exact same for all we know that Muzzin injury never happens if the lineup is different. same with Tavares. maybe they wouldnt have been on the ice at that exact second.
could have played out differently completely. however we will never know

 

[The Iceman]

Kadri is fool's gold. Looks great right now but on the verge of signing a horrible contract.

32 years old early next season
career minus player
career high in points for a season before this year is 61 points

All signs are there for a massive bust UFA signing.
Much like Hyman, love the player and will hate the contract.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I agree with you I still just wanted to see that lineup be given one last chance. and there`s no saying things would have worked out the exact same for all we know that Muzzin injury never happens if the lineup is different. same with Tavares. maybe they wouldnt have been on the ice at that exact second.
could have played out differently completely. however we will never know

Well my point was more being that we didn't have a fully healthy lineup until this year.

Muzzin was hurt 2 years ago (and Kadri was suspended). Tavares and Muzzin were hurt last. This year was the first year where it all would have worked out with both of them healthy and Kadri not suspended.

Do you genuinely believe Leafs fans would have been happy waiting that long, after all of the things that have happened even in the last two years before this one with Kadri and Kadri entering in a contract year?

It seriously just feels like a case of "any move sucks if we don't win"... Which is an attitude which will never lead to winning.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Well my point was more being that we didn't have a fully healthy lineup until this year.

Muzzin was hurt 2 years ago (and Kadri was suspended). Tavares and Muzzin were hurt last. This year was the first year where it all would have worked out with both of them healthy and Kadri not suspended.

Do you genuinely believe Leafs fans would have been happy waiting that long, after all of the things that have happened even in the last two years before this one with Kadri and Kadri entering in a contract year?

It seriously just feels like a case of "any move sucks if we don't win"... Which is an attitude which will never lead to winning.

I understand that we had a huge string of bad luck but if we never traded Kadri for all we know those injuries may have never happened. you switch one or 2 players out of that lineup and there's no saying they would have been in that exact same situation where they got hurt
we could have had an injury free team and won for all we know. just would have been nice to see that lineup get one last chance. I was fine with the trade too thought if we had to move on from Kadri Barrie and Kerfoot could be good for us. Barrie was not Kerfoot has become good for us

 

[Stephen]

Kadri is fool's gold. Looks great right now but on the verge of signing a horrible contract.

32 years old early next season
career minus player
career high in points for a season before this year is 61 points

All signs are there for a massive bust UFA signing.
Much like Hyman, love the player and will hate the contract.

Not sure he’s a good investment moving forward but post trade Kadri is kind of the player we needed all these years. Not sure if he would have taken that step in this city with Tavares taking his 2nd line role. But it is what it is. Feels like a lot of good pieces were flushed out and may have knee capped this era’s championship potential.

 

[Koolboss]

Was it not just last year that Avs fans were blaming Kadri for their playoff exit?

I love Nazem but the trade was uniformally viewed as a Dubas win at the time.

Says Dubas?

I mean... MacKinnon, Rantanen, and Landeskog are all pretty high up there too. Arguably more so than Kadri.

It is like saying if Rielly, Tavares, or Nylander deserved to win the Conn Smythe on a team that was being led by Matthews and Marner.

Have you been watching any playoff games lol

 

[TorMapleJays]

If only Kadri got the amount of second chances from management, as Dubas gets from ownership.

 

[Nylanderthal]

There really is no legitimate defense for these moves. Sometimes things don't work out, that shouldn't be so difficult to admit.

The fact that the moves didn’t work out doesn’t mean at the time the move didn’t make sense. Hindsight’s a pretty sweet thing to use when passing judgement. Lol

 

[BertCorbeau]

If only Kadri got the amount of second chances from management, as does Dubas gets from ownership.

I'd argue Kadri was given just as much of a chance to prove his maturity, if not more:

www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/looking-back-maple-leafs-nazem-kadris-lengthy-suspension-history

And not just one, but two playoff suspensions in back to back seasons was definitely the tipping point.

 

[Shooter2x]

I mean... MacKinnon, Rantanen, and Landeskog are all pretty high up there too. Arguably more so than Kadri.

It is like saying if Rielly, Tavares, or Nylander deserved to win the Conn Smythe on a team that was being led by Matthews and Marner.

Whoa. Based on last 2 seasons Nylander would be a heavy favorite for conn Smythe if Leafs ever start closing out series. I imagine that stat line would be close to or over 30 points after round 4.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Well the team did an outstanding job then. Just look at where that moral high ground has gotten us. Such valor to trade away a potential Conn Smythe winner.

And how would we be feeling about him after costing the team a series with brain dead plays in game 7 one year then following it up with another playoff suspension? That would be 4 straight post seasons where he directly has cost his team their playoff hopes, and we want to celebrate him because he’s on a heater season heading into FA?
This place is a meme sometimes

If only Kadri got the amount of second chances from management, as does Dubas gets from ownership.

I mean he’s had four straight postseasons where’s he either got suspended leaving a giant gaper in his teams line up, or his inability to play defensive hockey cost his team directly in a game 7.
Considering this organizations playoff history I doubt that’s something that could’ve survived the Dallas gaffe let alone last year with one team.

 

[BertCorbeau]

And how would we be feeling about him after costing the team a series with brain dead plays in game 7 one year then following it up with another playoff suspension? That would be 4 straight post seasons where he directly has cost his team their playoff hopes, and we want to celebrate him because he’s on a heater season heading into FA?
This place is a meme sometimes


I mean he’s had four straight postseasons where’s he either got suspended leaving a giant gaper in his teams line up, or his inability to play defensive hockey cost his team directly in a game 7.
Considering this organizations playoff history I doubt that’s something that could’ve survived the Dallas gaffe let alone last year with one team.

TBH if he was on the Leafs with this season and the Leafs did not win the cup, the sentiment would have been that Dubas is an idiot for not capitalizing on Kadri's trade value with the season he was having and keeping him as a "self rental"

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

The fact that the moves didn’t work out doesn’t mean at the time the move didn’t make sense. Hindsight’s a pretty sweet thing to use when passing judgement. Lol

Problem with this is trades are evaluate short term and long term.

Dubas has in the moment makes sense wins, but long term it's exposed to be a total loss. Impossible to win all trades but he doesn't have enough wins to offset the quality of loss.

Me and you both would have in common that we want quality of win to be more great than quality of loss and that is more important than excusing things because it made sense at the time. That accomplishes nothing.

 

[Mad hatter]

If Kadri hadn’t been suspended two years in a row, in the playoffs, he’d be here now I bet. We probably would have won both those series and all the hatred towards Dubas and Shanahan probably wouldn’t exist . Most of us on this board and most the experts thought it was a very good trade for the leafs at the time. Kadri was definitely my favourite leaf at the time but he cost us 2 series wins imho.

There is definitely a hate Dubas group and a love Dubas group that’s fought about in every thread it seems like. If they fired him tomorrow I could care less and I could understand why, the goal is too win and that’s only goal. I can also see why they don’t because the team had a very good season this year and we played Tampa in the first round. It was always going to be a coin flip series and unlucky bounces cost us the win imho.

Go leafs Go

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

Does anyone watch kobra kai on netflix.

Good analogy for dubas trades.

Season 1 the boy had to do a lot of chores that require his hands. Eventually he gets fed up and starts complaining about how are these chores making him any good at fighting?

Then he gets into a fight and suddenly his hands start doing all kind of moves, easily winning the fight. The vision his guru had worked out.

Dubas trades are the opposite. He convinces you from the beginning the trade is good, but then when you have to finally go and fight, you realize you are not ready at all and get beaten up.


What we need is the fight to be won by the method working. Whether it makes sense at the time or it doesn't is worth almost nothing. The final evaluation / outcome holds all the weight.


I actually don't remember now if it was cobra kai or another karate movie I watched but the example is same either way.