Did Dubas Trade away a future Conn Smythe Winner in Nazem Kadri?

[Gary Nylund]

The deal dubas made wasn't fir the good of the team.

It was a 1 season move. If Barrie was a 60 point player he'd price himself out of a new deal.

If he sucked we'd move on from him.

Dubas went after a 1 year rental as his target (after the brodie deal fell). That type of trade is a win now move which shows Dubas was looking to make a big move for the 2020 season.

Dubas won't obviously come out and say he wanted to make a big splash. However it was his second offseason. The previous year he'd signed JT and now he wanted to make another big name move which ended up being getting Barrie who was coming off a 60 pt season with the Avs.

You'll see since then he hasn't gone after many big names.

He's targeted depth Signings and guys who can play solid roles but aren't household names.

Brodie/Bunting/Kase/Mrazek(intention was to be able to be a 1a/1b).

He didn't chase big names after seeing the Tyson Barrie move flopped.

Avoid Pietrangelo, avoided Tarasenko who was on the block last offseason

Funny that you call this a one season move when here we are, years later and the only player left under contract to the team he went to from this trade is Kerfoot.

Compared to Tavares, Kadri doesn't even register as a splash. Kadri was suspended two years in a row in the playoffs and if that wasn't enough, Tavares made him a somewhat redundant, overpaid 3rd line centre. These were very obvious reasons for trading the man, this splash stuff seems like nothing more than your imagination.

We didn't have the cap space to go after Pietrangelo so this is a rather strange tangent to go on.

 

[Nylanderthal]

No we could have figured something out and kept him in the mix. and it wasnt just that. that helped push things over the edge but he had alot of issues within the franchise over the years too. it's fine if you disagree but Kadri being moved wasn't 100% needed. we as a fan base and Im sure upper management were angry and calling for it.

In house suspensions for conduct, two straight playoff suspensions costing his team the series both times with his nonsense… he had to go.
He then followed up the trade with a couple of pedestrian regular seasons, and another post season suspension that crippled his team. The only post season he hasn’t gotten suspended in he cost his team the series by completely avoiding any sort of hard work or physical exertion on D and allowing his man to make two gimme plays to win game 7.
Yet now he produces one season in Willy’s atmosphere while being spoon fed top minutes with MacK out early in the year amd everyone wants to blow their loads all over their screens complaining how we let one get away.
Imagine him allowing that game 7 breakdown here and getting suspended a third time in Toronto.

 

[hamzarocks]

Funny that you call this a one season move when here we are, years later and the only player left under contract to the team he went to from this trade is Kerfoot.

Compared to Tavares, Kadri doesn't even register as a splash. Kadri was suspended two years in a row in the playoffs and if that wasn't enough, Tavares made him a somewhat redundant, overpaid 3rd line centre. These were very obvious reasons for trading the man, this splash stuff seems like nothing more than your imagination.

We didn't have the cap space to go after Pietrangelo so this is a rather strange tangent to go on.

Kerfoot was a throw in the deal. His addition only supports the deak being a win now move/big move

Dubas didn't see Barrie as a long term fit. He got kerfoot to be a poor man's Kadri and have something left when Barrie was moved on from either due to being too good and expensive or being a wrong fit and not worth a long term deal

Kadri was around a 50 pt 3C in 2019. Of he was overpaid at 4.5M than kerfoot whose a 25-35 point playwr when he actually plays center is a cap dump

Barrie was one of the biggest names on the market. He was a sexy name who player an offensive game. Kadri git moved for one of the biggest names on the market

Pietrangelo was willingly not pursued. He'd want 9-10 to come to Toronto. We had the ability to move out 4-5 million if we wanted a big name. Dealing Andersen after CBJ along would have been enough to make the deal work if Dubas wanted another big name for the 3rd offseason in a row

He learned from the JT and Barrie moves not working in his first two years as GM

Began prioritizing depth and players who fit a role.

 

[Nylanderthal]

I assume he took the best offer he got. If he had to go, then it makes no sense to criticize him for taking the best offer. Unless you think he should have accepted the worst offer?


Of course Dubas made the deal, by upper management I though you were referring to his bosses. Sorry for the confusion.


Yeah the McCann whining is such a joke. People are just so angry, they'll bitch and moan at anything at this poing.

The McCann shuffle was a prime example of this management teams forward thinking.
Sacrificing a middling prospect and a 7th as your expansion penance when the protected list had some nice pieces on it was good managing by our group.
I expect Holl & kerf to be moved this summer yielding assets greater than given up for McCann.
@Bomber0104 care to elaborate on your laugh react to me? Or just nonsense like all our assets suck or GM is dumb etc etc

 

[TheHelmet]

we traded away a future conn smythe winner in Buffalo

it's not out the realm for another GM to do the same thing.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Kerfoot was a throw in the deal. His addition only supports the deak being a win now move/big move

Dubas didn't see Barrie as a long term fit. He got kerfoot to be a poor man's Kadri and have something left when Barrie was moved on from either due to being too good and expensive or being a wrong fit and not worth a long term deal

Kadri was around a 50 pt 3C in 2019. Of he was overpaid at 4.5M than kerfoot whose a 25-35 point playwr when he actually plays center is a cap dump

Barrie was one of the biggest names on the market. He was a sexy name who player an offensive game. Kadri git moved for one of the biggest names on the market

Pietrangelo was willingly not pursued. He'd want 9-10 to come to Toronto. We had the ability to move out 4-5 million if we wanted a big name. Dealing Andersen after CBJ along would have been enough to make the deal work if Dubas wanted another big name for the 3rd offseason in a row

He learned from the JT and Barrie moves not working in his first two years as GM

Began prioritizing depth and players who fit a role.

You think Kerfoot was a throw in, I think he's a pretty good hockey player and a valuable asset.

I don't think we have much common ground in discussion. Agree to disagree I guess, not much else to say here.

The McCann shuffle was a prime example of this management teams forward thinking.
Sacrificing a middling prospect and a 7th as your expansion penance when the protected list had some nice pieces on it was good managing by our group.
I expect Holl & kerf to be moved this summer yielding assets greater than given up for McCann.

Exactly.

 

[Lightsol]

Colorado is built similar to us if you don't consider their 3 team Canada level defensemen and better goalie to go along with their offensive prowess.

Sure Edmonton is similar. We wouldn't be sitting at home if our 11 million dollar players went God mode like mcdavid. Yet here we are

The conference argument is completely BS and a hilarious excuse. We played the 18 seed and the 14/15 the 2 of the last 3 years and lost them both.

Can't get any easier then that yet we're using it as an excuse somehow

"We lost to Montreal last year! Fire everyone, blow the team up, that's the only logical reaction to such a loss!"

 

[rocketman588]

"We lost to Montreal last year! Fire everyone, blow the team up, that's the only logical reaction to such a loss!"

You're claiming that the reason they're not winning is our conference

When you lose to the 15/18 seeds the years before this one that no longer is a valid excuse.

We should 100% can our GM and coach because their resume is trash.

This is the same duo that won one round in 3 years in the OHL

Your claim that we're built the same as the avs is ridiculous considering they have one of the best bluelines in the league

 

[rocketman588]

The McCann shuffle was a prime example of this management teams forward thinking.
Sacrificing a middling prospect and a 7th as your expansion penance when the protected list had some nice pieces on it was good managing by our group.
I expect Holl & kerf to be moved this summer yielding assets greater than given up for McCann.
@Bomber0104 care to elaborate on your laugh react to me? Or just nonsense like all our assets suck or GM is dumb etc etc

Would a better use of assets in addition to the better way to win this year not have been to keep McCann expose Holl and develop our young guys?

Holl plus Ritchie basically creates the room.

We could still sell kerfoot for assets this year but we get a fist line quality winger.

Bunting Matthews Marner
Mcann JT willy


Is an incredible top 6

I don't think the 3rd to 6s were about to get from those two Takes away the value of losing a year of AMs deal with a fist round loss and imo this decreases the chances of it.

We also gave the pens assets so they could cap dump Tanev basically which was the only reason they made the trade

 

[Nylanderthal]

Would a better use of assets in addition to the better way to win this year not have been to keep McCann expose Holl and develop our young guys?

Holl plus Ritchie basically creates the room.

We could still sell kerfoot for assets this year but we get a fist line quality winger.

Bunting Matthews Marner
Mcann JT willy


Is an incredible top 6

I don't think the 3rd to 6s were about to get from those two Takes away the value of losing a year of AMs deal with a fist round loss and imo this decreases the chances of it.

We also gave the pens assets so they could cap dump Tanev basically which was the only reason they made the trade

I think we have a big gap in expected returns for kerf & Holl. I think they’re both worth more in a trade than what was given up for McCann

 

[beamer67]

Kadri had to go, let's get real here.

No he didn't. Lets be real here.

 

[rocketman588]

I think we have a big gap in expected returns for kerf & Holl. I think they’re both worth more in a trade than what was given up for McCann

We didn't give up much for McCann because the pens were going to lose him anyways and decided to use the assets to cap dump Tanev instead of just losing McCann

Having him on the team with the possibility of resigning him and still getting to off load kerfoot for assets is significantly more valuable then the mid round picks that our 7th D man and third line center who both have trade protection net.

It's not 1 to 1 what did we give up to what are we adding. What McCann brings is basically exactly what we needed and it was stupid to throw him away to protect him for Holl.

I'll put it this way. Once he signs with someone does that team take Holl/kerfoot for him?

No they obviously would not. His value was his value solely because of the pens cap situation. It's not good asset management when you give away the best player in the deal for nothing to keep someone who didn't provide as much

We're supposedly the team of "own rentals" and have a 100 million analytics department. FW that can play on the top 2 lines is significantly more valuable then the 5/6 dman who had a good year next to Muzzin. How this wasn't something that was brought to Dubas and executed on is a massive mistake by all involved

 

[beamer67]

And people forget that going into this season he would have been a ufa and came off his 3rd suspension.

Heck he could win the cup and the smythe (although he wasn’t even an all star by voting this year so I don’t see it).

But it doesn’t change that he was a massive liability for 4 playoffs straight.

They haven't won without him, explain that. They were never favoured to win the cup just considered contenders.

 

[Lightsol]

You're claiming that the reason they're not winning is our conference

You know, constantly jumping around doesn't make your arguments any stronger. I said the Avs and the Oilers are in the final four because of their conference. Considering it didn't exist LAST YEAR, what the f*** does last year have to do with anything?

Then you start whining about the Montreal and Columbus losses, so I say if every time the Leafs lose going forward the fans are going to fall back on those losses, I guess we have no choice but to dismantle the team. Of course, considering there are f***ing fans around here who blame this management for losses 20+ years ago, I guess the only reasonable option is for the team to just fold and a new Toronto team be created with no history at all...

 

[rocketman588]

You know, constantly jumping around doesn't make your arguments any stronger. I said the Avs and the Oilers are in the final four because of their conference. Considering it didn't exist LAST YEAR, what the f*** does last year have to do with anything?

Then you start whining about the Montreal and Columbus losses, so I say if every time the Leafs lose going forward the fans are going to fall back on those losses, I guess we have no choice but to dismantle the team. Of course, considering there are f***ing fans around here who blame this management for losses 20+ years ago, I guess the only reasonable option is for the team to just fold and a new Toronto team be created with no history at all...

It was the exact same conversation. You said we were built very similar to the avs ( we're not) then said we were in the wrong conference and that was our only issue which is a bullshit excuse considering our previous competition.

Dismantling the team is very reasonable considering a very similar team has lost the last 3 years run by the same people. It doesn't take talking about 20 years ago to realize this group can't get it done. All you have to do is look at the recent past.

Additionally looking at the recent past management group and coaching staff never should have gotten a position with the Maries even in the first place as they could not perform even at the OHL level.

No one wants to fold the team we are tired of our underachieving GM crashing the Porsche that he was given

 

[TGB]

No he didn't. Lets be real here.

Oh, please. You and practically everyone else here were calling for Kadri's head after yet another suspension. That's the true "real" here. That and yet another round of "grass is greener" syndrome Leafs nation is perpetually afflicted with: you guys are always hating players we have and lamenting their loss when they leave.
I know someone very similar. Always hates the things he has then regrets losing those things when he loses them. Was eventually diagnosed as neurotic and OCD.

Dismantling the team is very reasonable considering a very similar team has lost the last 3 years run by the same people.

Panic selling has never been reasonable.

 

[Legion34]

They haven't won without him, explain that. They were never favoured to win the cup just considered contenders.

Huh? I have no idea what you mean? Explain what?

Kadri played in 3 playoff series in the rebuild. He was with the leafs for 10 years and never won with him. This does NOT mean that we couldn’t. But from 2016-2021 he was directly involved in massive parts of losses.

Boston. Suspended
Boston. Suspended
Colorado. Gives up the puck in the last 2 min to tie the game. Then let’s his man (a 13th forward rookie) stand alone and score.
Colorado. Suspended

Heck the only year he didn’t get suspended he submarined ovy and could have. This year he accidentally on purpose ran binnington.

He had a massive playoff this year. Too bad he got hurt. But going into his last year under contract. This year

If he had that record. 3 suspensions and a gardiner special. Everyone would have wanted him gone. I hope he is fine for the final. But it’s grass is always greener.

People put themselves in pretzels trying to make everything about Toronto. Every good player is a player the leafs should have drafted. Or tanked for. Or traded for. Every time a player has a hot streak it’s suicide watch because we traded him away. It’s silly

 

[LeafSteel]

We didn't give up much for McCann because the pens were going to lose him anyways and decided to use the assets to cap dump Tanev instead of just losing McCann

Having him on the team with the possibility of resigning him and still getting to off load kerfoot for assets is significantly more valuable then the mid round picks that our 7th D man and third line center who both have trade protection net.

It's not 1 to 1 what did we give up to what are we adding. What McCann brings is basically exactly what we needed and it was stupid to throw him away to protect him for Holl.

I'll put it this way. Once he signs with someone does that team take Holl/kerfoot for him?

No they obviously would not. His value was his value solely because of the pens cap situation. It's not good asset management when you give away the best player in the deal for nothing to keep someone who didn't provide as much

We're supposedly the team of "own rentals" and have a 100 million analytics department. FW that can play on the top 2 lines is significantly more valuable then the 5/6 dman who had a good year next to Muzzin. How this wasn't something that was brought to Dubas and executed on is a massive mistake by all involved

Agreed.

I said it then, I say it now, I say it always: Dubas screwed the pooch exposing and losing McCann to keep Holl, knowing we had Sandin and Liljegren who needed ice time.

It's not like Holl was some seasoned, veteran defenceman. He had just finished playing his 1st full season and was carried by Muzzin for most of it.

It was a dumb and frustrating decision at the time, and the thought of McCann on LW with Tavares and Nylander just makes it that much more frustating. Our top 6 would have been set, and McCann would have been a much better fit for them than Kerfoot ever could be......

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yes number 6 to Ahl caliber defensemen are really difficult to replace.
Hilarious take considering were about to give up a pick to offload him

Holl is much better than a #6/AHL caliber defenseman, and the only thing hilarious is the idea that we need to add to him to trade him.

he had a 44 point season because he was demoted to the third line

He had a 44 point season because he didn't play well. And he hasn't been all that much better in the 2 years prior to this one.

before that, he had back-to-back 30g seasons.

In two outlier years, mostly because of Marner - with almost half his goals coming on the PP.

sakic was smart enough to see that.

Sakic was desperate.

Sure, but Barrie ended up being a terrible fit with us. It made sense to trade Kadri but Dubas didn’t get the right return

The return didn't end up being the slam dunk it looked to be at the time, but it's miles from "terrible", there was sound reasoning behind it, and the one part of the trade that didn't fit as well was replaced by the initial target for that position that has fit perfectly. There is always an inherent trade risk when it comes to fit with your coach, players, system, etc. - which is one of the reasons why wanting to randomly trade critically important players as a blood sacrifice for a playoff outcome is ridiculous.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

nope because he probably isn't playing in the finals

 

[deprw]

Did Avalanche fans had this same discussion last year about Kerfoot? Kerfoot was real solid for us agains Habs and Kadri got suspended once again (for whole series, once again). I wouldn't grade this trade based on one year performance. Kadri is playing with almost 100p winger (Rantanen) and that line has great chemistry.

Happy for Kadri, but first two seasons that trade was more than ok for us and we get some value back for Kerfoot now or one good season of steady play. Also to be said that if Kadri would have failed here like he did in Colorado first two years. We would have been bashing Dubas for not trading Kadri and ruining his value when playing him as 3rd line center.

Barrie flopped here, but it was always a gamble on defense market that was really thin and we had that idea to play Barrie with Muzzin, that really didn't end up well. We needed more NHL defenseman rather than Kadri playing as 40pt 3rd line center.

We still have Kerfoot and he has been really solid for us and is willing to play as secondary piece. I think Kadri need bigger role to be motivated like he is now.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Holl is much better than a #6/AHL caliber defenseman, and the only thing hilarious is the idea that we need to add to him to trade him.

He had a 44 point season because he didn't play well. And he hasn't been all that much better in the 2 years prior to this one.

In two outlier years, mostly because of Marner - with almost half his goals coming on the PP.

Sakic was desperate.

The return didn't end up being the slam dunk it looked to be at the time, but it's miles from "terrible", there was sound reasoning behind it, and the one part of the trade that didn't fit as well was replaced by the initial target for that position that has fit perfectly. There is always an inherent trade risk when it comes to fit with your coach, players, system, etc. - which is one of the reasons why wanting to randomly trade critically important players as a blood sacrifice for a playoff outcome is ridiculous.

I don't think most people have an issue with Kadri being traded...it's what we got for him that most are upset about. How bad is our pro scouting that they couldn't tell Barrie was totally useless in his own end? And not all that good on offense either. I would have preferred the first trade Dubas tried to make that got vetoed. He should have not rushed the deal and waited into the next season if the offers were crap. It worked for Sakic when it came to Duschene and O'Reilly. Even Stevey Y did well with Drouin by waiting it out.

Whoever signs Kadri will be regretting it big time by season 3 if not sooner. I would stay away from guys making Hay in a contract year when they did nothing for a few years leading up to the final year. Same goes for Mikeyhev....that will be a big problem for the signing team.

 

[AllDay28]

This thread aged like spoiled milk.

Also, a UFA to be, on a stacked team, trying extra hard to cash in on a pay day? This is the first time in history this has ever happened. Kadris just different.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I don't think most people have an issue with Kadri being traded...it's what we got for him that most are upset about.

Seems like a lot of people have an issue with Kadri being traded for some reason, and I'm not sure why anybody would be upset about getting fair value and trading a team strength to address team weaknesses.

I would have preferred the first trade Dubas tried to make that got vetoed.

I mean, so did Dubas, obviously. We ended up with the best parts of both trades in the end though.

He should have not rushed the deal and waited into the next season if the offers were crap. It worked for Sakic when it came to Duschene and O'Reilly.

Keeping Kadri beyond that offseason would have sent a bad message and complicated building out our roster, and his value likely would have just continued to drop. The offer he got was fair value, and addressed team needs.

I don't know why people keep pointing to the Duchene trade as if it's the rule, not the exception that additionally required a lot of luck to get the draft pick placement they did. And the O'Reilly trade wasn't even very good. Neither of these guys had just been suspended for 2 consecutive playoff series either.

Whoever signs Kadri will be regretting it big time by season 3 if not sooner.

Likely by year 1. This has every red flag imaginable.

 

[Zack47]

I do, and I don't understand the resistance to the truth about Kadri: he is a top player, always was, if treated and used properly, and that trade was ridiculous from the start.

It's a long story. Going back, it is pretty clear that his early years were hurt by coaching and GM decisions. Calling him cocky is a signal. He's not white -- it's a classic sign of putting down someone of colour. Didn't play defense -- true, so send him to the AHL and keep him there until he does. Some players of high promise (7th overall, higher than Willie), don't react well to that. He comes up, has the highest plus/minus over the 8 game stretch on the team, so what do they do?: send him back down.

Craig Button said it right: Kadri was misunderstood, mismanaged, and mistreated. Of course, he was angry.

This year is not a one-off. Why does no one remember he scored 32 goals a year when he was 2nd line center? Think about this: if we had not signed Tavares, but kept Kadri, where would we be now? Answer: better off, because the difference in the salaries would amount to 2, maybe 3, top players. Depth, balance, something we don't have. There are indirect consequences of the Tavares decision, this is one of them.

I even think some of his suspensions were uncalled for. That hit last year looked like Scott Stevens to me, in fact Scott Stevens regularly went after people's head, and people loved him. Why? Well, he's -- code-words ahead -- he's a good Canadian boy.

Watching Kadri play for the Avalanche is painful. Please don't cite Kerfoot in response. Not in the same league..