Proposal: Devils & Ducks

[dracom]

We don't know that it's a hot streak.

His career would suggest it is. A player whose career high is 3 points in 35 games suddenly puts up 10 points in 18 games and you don't think it's a hot streak? His shooting percentage is at 19%, you don't think that will come down? I have more faith in the younger player who has put up more points in one season than Grant has in his entire NHL career to be a better player for us right now and in the future.

 

[Exit Dose]

His career would suggest it is. A player whose career high is 3 points in 35 games suddenly puts up 10 points in 18 games and you don't think it's a hot streak? His shooting percentage is at 19%, you don't think that will come down? I have more faith in the younger player who has put up more points in one season than Grant has in his entire NHL career to be a better player for us right now and in the future.

Yes, because you naively believe that being drafted high in the first round guarantees success. You don't know that what Zacha did last year wasn't just a hot streak either. No amount of hand waving is going to make an assertion that Zacha is currently outplaying Grant factual.

 

[dracom]

Yes, because you naively believe that being drafted high in the first round guarantees success. You don't know that what Zacha did last year wasn't just a hot streak either. No amount of hand waving is going to make an assertion that Zacha is currently outplaying Grant factual.

He has 5 more points than Zacha dude...that's hardly outplaying him enough to suggest he is better to have right now. If you're against moving Vats for Zacha, that's fine I get that. But not wanting to upgrade our miserable center depth because Grant is having a high shooting %, career year where he has put up 5 more points than Zacha in 3 more games, that's just ridiculous. It's not about his draft status, it's about their history and what's happening right now. Zacha has a better career already only after a season, has put up 5 few points in 3 few games than Grant who is riding a hot streak. Zacha > Grant easily.

 

[Exit Dose]

He has 5 more points than Zacha dude...that's hardly outplaying him enough to suggest he is better to have right now. If you're against moving Vats for Zacha, that's fine I get that. But not wanting to upgrade our miserable center depth because Grant is having a high shooting %, career year where he has put up 5 more points than Zacha in 3 more games, that's just ridiculous. It's not about his draft status, it's about their history and what's happening right now. Zacha has a better career already only after a season, has put up 5 few points in 3 few games than Grant who is riding a hot streak. Zacha > Grant easily.

Yet Grant is outplaying Zacha right now and in Zacha's past. Just calling it a 'hot streak' doesn't make that go away. Nor doesn't it magically create a resume that doesn't exist yet for Zacha.

Edit: I like how you're treating the trade of Vatanen for Zacha as something completely secondary to this when it was the entire motive for your initial dispute.

 

[dracom]

Yet Grant is outplaying Zacha right now and in Zacha's past. Just calling it a 'hot streak' doesn't make that go away. Nor doesn't it magically create a resume that doesn't exist yet for Zacha.

So Zacha's season last year magically doesn't count now? Hot streaks do go away eventually, Grant's 19% shooting percentage is going to go down. Zacha is young and can get better, WAS better last year than Grant was his whole career, Grant will ride this hot streak as long as he can will fall back down to Earth. Successful teams take chances on young high potential players to provide for them, look at Guentzel, his first season last year and was a damn near MVP. Sometimes you have to take those risks to be successful.

 

[Exit Dose]

So Zacha's season last year magically doesn't count now? Hot streaks do go away eventually, Grant's 19% shooting percentage is going to go down. Zacha is young and can get better, WAS better last year than Grant was his whole career, Grant will ride this hot streak as long as he can will fall back down to Earth. Successful teams take chances on young high potential players to provide for them, look at Guentzel, his first season last year and was a damn near MVP. Sometimes you have to take those risks to be successful.

Zacha's season last year wasn't in line with what Grant is doing right now. He can get better, he may easily not.

Again, you don't seem to grasp the difference between speculation and fact. Guentzel did well, but most players don't do that. We are already taking chances on young high potential players. I'm sorry that shiny new toys isn't the answer to everything. Unfortunately, that's just the dumb line of thought that circulates around the trade boards. Real teams actually hunt for established talents to solve their issues. They dip into the speculative bucket when they have no other choice.

His shooting percentage will go down. His assists per 60 though? His defensive game? That's not guaranteed to drop.

 

[AfroThunder396]

Really? Butcher, Greene, Moore and Mueller and it's another lefty you'd want? I find that odd.

Greene is 35 and very obviously on the downside of his career, his play has been slipping the last two seasons and he can't be relied upon for major minutes any more.

Butcher is a fine bottom-pairing PP guy but he gets heavily sheltered at ES and can get physically bullied due to his small size. He also has been playing on the right side throughout college and for most of his time in NJ, he seems to be more comfortable there.

Moore is a decent bottom-pairing puck mover with a nice shot and that's really it. He's terribad defensively.

Mueller was playing very well before his injury but he's still the youngest defenseman on the roster (two week younger than Butcher) and greener than goose shit.

Ideally we get a youngish top pairing LHD, but it's easier to find a unicorn that trade for one of those (OEL though?). Regardless, a middle pairing LHD ages 25-30 who is defense first but can still get ~25 points a season would really lighten the load and slot other guys where they belong on the depth chart.

 

[dracom]

Zacha's season last year wasn't in line with what Grant is doing right now. He can get better, he may easily not.

Again, you don't seem to grasp the difference between speculation and fact. Guentzel did well, but most players don't do that. We are already taking chances on young high potential players. I'm sorry that shiny new toys isn't the answer to everything. Unfortunately, that's just the dumb line of thought that circulates around the trade boards. Real teams actually hunt for established talents to solve their issues. They dip into the speculative bucket when they have no other choice.

His shooting percentage will go down. His assists per 60 though? His defensive game? That's not guaranteed to drop.

So just going to ignore what Zacha did last season, ok got it.

You don't seem to grasp the idea that a player with 5 more points with 3 more games played doesn't automatically mean that player is better.

This whole board is to discuss trades, so if you don't want to discuss them, why even be on here? You can ignore what Zacha has done because he has 5 few points than Grant does in 3 fewer games who is having a career year at 27 years old with a whooping 10 points. That's fine, doesn't mean Grant is a better player than Zacha who would help this team now and in the future (which is what GMs look to do btw).

When he has to play 4th line minutes when everyone else is healthy, his point production is going to go down. Let's see how he does when he's not playing with Rakell and Perry, and instead Ritchie and Shaw. His defensive game? It's not great, it's not terrible, it's pretty average. Don't see his defensive game being much better than Zacha, certainly not enough to suggest it would be better to have Grant over Zacha.

If you think a GM who has a chance to get Zacha (doubt Devil's are going to move him) doesn't do it because they have 10 point career high Derek Grant playing way above his head right now, you're crazy.

 

[Exit Dose]

So just going to ignore what Zacha did last season, ok got it.

You don't seem to grasp the idea that a player with 5 more points with 3 more games played doesn't automatically mean that player is better.

I didn't ignore it at all. I specifically said that he didn't average this many points last year as Grant is with us this year.

You don't seem to grasp why that 3 game disparity is there. Hint: New Jersey has played as many games as we have.

This whole board is to discuss trades, so if you don't want to discuss them, why even be on here? You can ignore what Zacha has done because he has 5 few points than Grant does in 3 fewer games who is having a career year at 27 years old with a whooping 10 points. That's fine, doesn't mean Grant is a better player than Zacha who would help this team now and in the future (which is what GMs look to do btw).

When he has to play 4th line minutes when everyone else is healthy, his point production is going to go down. Let's see how he does when he's not playing with Rakell and Perry, and instead Ritchie and Shaw. His defensive game? It's not great, it's not terrible, it's pretty average. Don't see his defensive game being much better than Zacha, certainly not enough to suggest it would be better to have Grant over Zacha.

Oh hi, red herrings.

If you think a GM who has a chance to get Zacha (doubt Devil's are going to move him) doesn't do it because they have 10 point career high Derek Grant playing way above his head right now, you're crazy.

And this is just completely ignoring that I have no problem trading for a player that is an upgrade over Grant. Zacha hasn't shown he is that. All the wishful thinking on your part isn't going to change that.

 

[dracom]

I didn't ignore it at all. I specifically said that he didn't average this many points last year as Grant is with us this year.

Because Grant is on a hot streak, that is going to go down. Zacha also wasn't playing 1st line ice time with guys like Rakell and Perry. What Zacha did last year as a rookie is a better indication of what kind of player he is than what Grant is doing right now. His past where his career high was 3 freaking points shows that.

You don't seem to grasp why that 3 game disparity is there. Hint: New Jersey has played as many games as we have.

Because teams always scratch guys on a hot streak? Right. Zacha being scratched and still putting up those points is still a plus for him in my books. Not to mention rookies get scratched all the time, it's not always an indication that they are bad.

Oh hi, red herrings.

Oh hi, let's just ignore the fact that when Getz and Kes get back Grant isn't going to be playing 1st line minutes anymore with top 6 players. If you think Ritchie and Shaw are going to help Grant produce similar numbers, then you have more faith in those players than a normal person should.

And this is just completely ignoring that I have no problem trading for a player that is an upgrade over Grant. Zacha hasn't shown he is that. All the wishful thinking on your part isn't going to change that.

You've yet to actually explain why Zacha isn't an upgrade over Grant, just because Grant has 5 whole more points now doesn't make it true. Thank god you're not our GM, refusing to want a 20 year old whose point total last season is still more than Grant's entire career plus some. Such a what have you done for me lately mentality. Sorry to break it to you, but just because Grantzlef is a funny joke, doesn't make it true.

 

[Exit Dose]

Because Grant is on a hot streak, that is going to go down. Zacha also wasn't playing 1st line ice time with guys like Rakell and Perry. What Zacha did last year as a rookie is a better indication of what kind of player he is than what Grant is doing right now. His past where his career high was 3 freaking points shows that.

That is speculation on your point. Neither you nor I know what the rest of the season holds for Grant, just as you also don't know what would transpire if Zacha has a scenery change. You do not seem to have a handle on the difference of what you believe will happen and what is real.

That isn't a better indication of anything. As I pointed out earlier, you have no idea if what he did last season was a fluke anymore that you know that what Grant is doing this season is a fluke.

I don't care about the fruits of a childlike imagination. That's in plentiful supply around these parts. Shrewd analysis of the facts sadly is not. I would love to replace Grant and Vermette on the depth chart, but replace them with someone that actually has accomplishments. Mystery boxes don't do that.

Because teams always scratch guys on a hot streak? Right. Zacha being scratched and still putting up those points is still a plus for him in my books. Not to mention rookies get scratched all the time, it's not always an indication that they are bad.

I don't even...

Oh hi, let's just ignore the fact that when Getz and Kes get back Grant isn't going to be playing 1st line minutes anymore with top 6 players. If you think Ritchie and Shaw are going to help Grant produce similar numbers, then you have more faith in those players than a normal person should.

Do you not know what an average is? Do you not know why points/assists per 60 is important? Is that the problem?

You've yet to actually explain why Zacha isn't an upgrade over Grant, just because Grant has 5 whole more points now doesn't make it true. Thank god you're not our GM, refusing to want a 20 year old whose point total last season is still twice more than Grants whole career. Such a what have you done for me lately mentality. Sorry to break it to you, but just because Grantzlef is a funny joke, doesn't make it true.

You haven't actually shown that Zacha is an upgrade over Grant. You just keep yelling 'hot streak' over and over like that's an argument. That is a claim without any real evidence. There are plenty of incidents in this league of players that are late bloomers or needed the right opportunities to flourish. He's never produced at a rate greater than Grant currently is. I've never said that I think Grant is destined to continue playing at this level, he may or he may not, I'm saying that at no point in his career has Zacha done anything to show that he is an upgrade over the current performance of the player on our team right now.

 

[irishsetter13]

CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!?!?!?!

 

[Mallard]

Are they really arguing on if Grant or Zacha is better??

I mean Kreator is one of my favorite bands but...

 

[Exit Dose]

Are they really arguing on if Grant or Zacha is better??

I mean Kreator is one of my favorite bands but...

There's a little more nuance to it than that.

 

[Spazkat]

Back to the topic at hand.....

I vote that trading Vatanen for a mystery box (no matter how shiny it might be) is a bad plan. We need scoring help and center depth *now*. Trading an established top 4 RHD that even Devils fans say is in the pressbox because he probably needs more AHL time is not a good plan.