Devils 2020-21 team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part III

[britdevil]

Fitz should look to package one of the lower 1st round picks for a young defender who can play now.

This draft has a pretty good looking top ~8, after that....

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

I would be pissed if we were to move one of our 1st round pick for Dunn. We’d be getting more of the same in terms of playing style and that’s not what we need.

Fitz talked about adding size and I can see Zadorov as a target. The return wouldn’t be anything special, maybe something like the Islanders 2nd rounder in 2021 might be a possibility and we’d still have all 3 picks in the 1st round.

What I do want to see is some change on our blueline. We have guys that have been with us for years and it just hasn’t worked out. At some point, we need to try something different. Mueller needs to go and if I can get someone to play on our right side, I’d trade Severson. Hoping for a good outcome year after year is now just wishful thinking. The same can be said about Zacha, he is who he is and expecting anything different then what we’ve seen from him since day #1 is setting us up for failure.

I think Fitz will put his stamp on the team this offseason and we’ll see a couple of players changing addresses.

 

[devlzfan]

The quote reads to me like it’s over but it’s ambiguous. The league announced a bunch of trade tweaks already so I would have expected it announced then; unless the league told the Devils to wait to see if it mattered.

31 Thoughts: How will Dubas handle Maple Leafs’ off-season? - Sportsnet.ca

25. The optimist is thrilled because New Jersey has three first-rounders in a deep draft: theirs, Arizona’s and Vancouver’s. The pessimist thinks: Man, we could have done better. Arizona’s first-rounder in the Taylor Hall deal was top-three protected, and the Coyotes’ victory over Nashville erased the Devils’ possibility of a second lottery selection. (New Jersey appealed to the NHL about this, saying Return to Play guidelines devalued the Devils’ return in the original trade.)

As for the Canucks’ selection, I’m betting Jersey would have happily gambled to see what occurred next season. If Vancouver missed the playoffs this season, the Devils got their number one next year no matter what.

I get everyone (and maybe even the Devils) themselves crying about Arizona's pick being devalued because the return to play format gave them a better chance to get in the playoffs. But let's all remember something here, at the time of the Taylor Hall deal, the Coyotes were in FIRST PLACE. The only reason there's complaints is because they faltered towards the end and were out of a playoff spot at the time of the break. But when the Devils made the trade of their star player for a first-round pick to a team already in a playoff spot, I can't imagine they thought it would be a lottery pick.

 

[Triumph]

Zadorov for a 2nd is a massive overpay, Zadorov is an arb-eligible D making $3.2M. The Devils should be able to get him for free.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

I like Zadorov more than most here but I agree with @Triumph ....Colorado's hand is going to be forced especially when you consider that they may just lose him in the expansion draft for free. I would not mind acquiring him, but he is seemingly nothing more than a #5 that can PK

I don't get the hatred towards Dunn and from the way you've described his game, it seems like you have not watched him play. I don't understand how you can say that a guy who can skate like he can and is good in the transition game is something that we do not need. Being a sound responsible DMan does not mean you need to be Anton Volchenkov out there....especially in today's game. The name of the game is getting the puck up the ice and out of the zone.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Dunn and Zadarov (depending on his contract) would be a successful offseason. Smith is coming in too and should be ready to contribute. Still lacking that number 1 left handed guy but the hope would be that’s Smith in 2-3 years.

 

[NJ DevLolz]

Guys. Zadorov sucks

 

[Scooooooooooooot]

I would really like to stay away from tall tree D men who cant handle the puck, take dumb penalties and chase down unnecessary hits. Really need to add good defenders and not just big body D man. Brendan Dillon is the ideal Defensive D I would want and I would absolutely move the Vancouver pick for Dunn plus a cap dump and whatever else. Vince Dunn isnt Will Butcher people watch some other hockey besides the Devils.

 

[Al Belin]

Hi all. First time poster long time lurker. Compelled to post due to growing angst about the state of this franchise. In addition to a growing sickness about the state of the franchise across the river who I despise almost as much as I love the Devils.

Read this article this morning on The Athletic about Carolina turning the Marleau contract into a lottery pick and was disturbed by this passage right at the top:

It was the morning of Day 2 at the NHL Draft in Vancouver.
There’s always a move or two that pops up that day. And this one caught everyone by surprise.
Not that Toronto had moved Patrick Marleau, that part many of us had speculated for weeks. The Maple Leafs were in dire need of vacating cap space and needing to get out from underneath the final year of the veteran’s $6.25-million cap hit.
There had been talks with Arizona and Los Angeles, among other teams, in the weeks ahead of the draft, but no deal.
Since the Leafs didn’t want to lose a roster player aside from Marleau, this was purely about monetizing the draft pick compensation it would take to find a taker on Marleau. A buyout meant any team would have to pay Marleau around $3.83 million ($3-million signing bonus plus remaining salary).
Which is where the surprise part comes in. It was the Hurricanes who ended up biting on that, owner Tom Dundon not one to waste a nickel, but seeing the wisdom in monetizing the worth of the first-round pick he got in return for taking on Marleau’s contract.
Some 14 months later, that pick turns into 13th overall in the upcoming draft. A nice little piece of business for the Hurricanes.

What is the possible justification for the Devils, who have been selling us on Cap Space and the ability to "weaponize" it, having let Carolina beat them to this deal - and not even be mentioned as being one of the teams involved in discussions with Toronto. This appears to be a straight "space-for-asset" trade which is exactly what we have been sold. And small market, low budget Carolina, who has already drafted circles around the Devils, is able to just swoop in and get another #1. Makes me confused and angry. Please help.

 

[Devils731]

With Marleau, there may have been real concerns about cap circumvention penalties. That trade doesn’t really pass the sniff test as a hockey trade, it was a cash for draft pick trade. More blatant than most cap dumps.

Also, you’re not going to end up with every good deal. Devils were busy finalizing the Subban trade as this trade went down; it’s hard to be in 2 places at once.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

First off, welcome.

Secondly, did you forget that the Devils used their cap space to acquire PK Subban literally on that same day? They also had used their cap space a few years back to acquire a free 2nd round pick for taking Marc Savard. They also were able to pry Gusev from Vegas due to their cap restrictions and don't forget about Palmieri from the Ducks for similar reasons.

Carolina has made some shrewd moves the past few years that I am certainly jealous of, but still.

 

[Nico Hischier]

Guys. Zadorov sucks

Thank you!!! Zadarov makes way too many bonehead plays. He will be in the doghouse immediately here but people are obsessed with his size and the fact that he can completely take himself out of the play to go for a hit

 

[Al Belin]

First off, welcome.

Secondly, did you forget that the Devils used their cap space to acquire PK Subban literally on that same day? They also had used their cap space a few years back to acquire a free 2nd round pick for taking Marc Savard.

Carolina has made some shrewd moves the past few years that I am certainly jealous of, but still.

No of course I did not forget that. But I don't see those two moves having anything to do with this. The Devils still possess the largest amount of cap space in the NHL even after taking Subban and Savard... and being that we have been sold, again, on weaponizing cap space as maybe the #1 asset for the team build moving forward, its confusing as to how this was missed - being that a 1st Round pick is unquestionably significant asset and the space needed to acquire it was open and was left open for the reminder of the year (i.e. wasted).

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

No of course I did not forget that. But I don't see those two moves having anything to do with this. The Devils still possess the largest amount of cap space in the NHL even after taking Subban and Savard... and being that we have been sold, again, on weaponizing cap space as maybe the #1 asset for the team build moving forward, its confusing as to how this was missed - being that a 1st Round pick is unquestionably significant asset and the space needed to acquire it was open and was left open for the reminder of the year (i.e. wasted).

I edited my post

the Gusev trade was an example of taking advantage of Vegas' cap constraints. The Palmieri trade was an example of taking advantage of Anaheim's cap constraints. Their GM even said at the time of the trade that he knew they were not going to be able to afford Palmieri.

so yes, there have been some moves that other teams made that we were not involved in. But lets not act like we haven't used the cap space whatsoever.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Guys. Zadorov sucks

He’s not that good. I’m not a big fan of the player. The majority of players at every position on this team have sucked over the last decade. He’d be fine at the right price if he was acquired for nothing. He plays a role on a team that is significantly better than us. At least he’s not a midget.

 

[Al Belin]

I edited my post

the Gusev trade was an example of taking advantage of Vegas' cap constraints. The Palmieri trade was an example of taking advantage of Anaheim's cap constraints. Their GM even said at the time of the trade that he knew they were not going to be able to afford Palmieri.

so yes, there have been some moves that other teams made that we were not involved in. But lets not act like we haven't used the cap space whatsoever.

Certainly didn't mean to imply that it hasn't been used "whatsoever". This however is a prime asset that was essentially traded for cap space and cash alone. Those other deals you mentioned outside of Savard had prime assets going in the other direction, namely 2nd Rd picks. This was a 1st Rd pick available for cash and the Devils either passed on, chose not to pursue or were not aware of. Either way not good.

I think its fair to guess that Toronto would rather have dealt with Devils if given the choice rather than a rising intra-division rival. So its just frustrating.

I admitted in my first post that I'm completely triggered by the speed of the Rangers rebuild relative to the Devils, and I look at this #13 pick and it makes me very frustrated.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Certainly didn't mean to imply that it hasn't been used "whatsoever". This however is a prime asset that was essentially traded for cap space and cash alone. Those other deals you mentioned outside of Savard had prime assets going in the other direction, namely 2nd Rd picks. This was a 1st Rd pick available for cash and the Devils either passed on, chose not to pursue or were not aware of. Either way not good.

I think its fair to guess that Toronto would rather have dealt with Devils if given the choice rather than a rising intra-division rival. So its just frustrating.

I admitted in my first post that I'm completely triggered by the speed of the Rangers rebuild relative to the Devils, and I look at this #13 pick and it makes me very frustrated.

the Rangers rebuild "speed" is mainly because of all their extra first round picks the past few years due to having players worthy of selling. I brought this up the other day, but they had:

2 firsts in 2017 (their own and Arizona's from trading Stepan and Raanta)
3 firsts in 2018 (their own, Boston's from trading Rick Nash and Tampa's from trading Ryan McDonagh/JT Miller)
2 firsts in 2019 (their own and then they traded Winnipeg's back to them for Trouba, which they acquired from dealing Hayes)
2 firsts in 2020 (their own and then the one you brought up that they acquired from Carolina for Skjei)

the Devils simply did not have those types of players to sell until this year of course with Hall and Coleman. That is why the Rangers rebuild has seemingly "accelerated". It also helps to jump up 10+ spots and win lotteries in consecutive years, but we can't complain much about that aspect.

Not to mention the Rangers can get pretty much any FA they want to sign there. They got a guy who might win MVP for nothing but $$. The Devils have never and will never have that ability.

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

the Rangers rebuild "speed" is mainly because of all their extra first round picks the past few years due to having players worthy of selling. I brought this up the other day, but they had:

2 firsts in 2017 (their own and Arizona's from trading Stepan and Raanta)
3 firsts in 2018 (their own, Boston's from trading Rick Nash and Tampa's from trading Ryan McDonagh/JT Miller)
2 firsts in 2019 (their own and then they traded Winnipeg's back to them for Trouba, which they acquired from dealing Hayes)
2 firsts in 2020 (their own and then the one you brought up that they acquired from Carolina for Skjei)

the Devils simply did not have those types of players to sell until this year of course with Hall and Coleman. That is why the Rangers rebuild has seemingly "accelerated". It also helps to jump up 10+ spots and win lotteries in consecutive years, but we can't complain much about that aspect.

Not to mention that the Rangers would have missed the playoffs this year if not for COVID. I really do not get all this jealousy of a non-playoff team.

 

[Al Belin]

the Rangers rebuild "speed" is mainly because of all their extra first round picks the past few years due to having players worthy of selling. I brought this up the other day, but they had:

2 firsts in 2017 (their own and Arizona's from trading Stepan and Raanta)
3 firsts in 2018 (their own, Boston's from trading Rick Nash and Tampa's from trading Ryan McDonagh/JT Miller)
2 firsts in 2019 (their own and then they traded Winnipeg's back to them for Trouba, which they acquired from dealing Hayes)
2 firsts in 2020 (their own and then the one you brought up that they acquired from Carolina for Skjei)

the Devils simply did not have those types of players to sell until this year of course with Hall and Coleman. That is why the Rangers rebuild has seemingly "accelerated". It also helps to jump up 10+ spots and win lotteries in consecutive years, but we can't complain much about that aspect.

Hence the need for the Devils to take advantage of their one advantage over the Rangers - cap space - yes? The need to take advantage of that as aggressively as the Rangers have in using their player assets to acquire prime draft picks, right?

 

[Nico Hischier]

Hindsight is everything and now that the pick turned out to be #13 it looks like we really missed out. At the time, most people thought the pick would be late 20s

 

[Al Belin]

Hindsight is everything and now that the pick turned out to be #13 it looks like we really missed out. At the time, most people thought the pick would be late 20s

True but all would still apply to a pick in the late 20's. Several of the picks the rangers acquired that accelerated their rebuild ahead of the devils were picks in the 20's right. Really no justification for this other than simply acknowledging that the cap space asset has been oversold to us and the urgency to move the rebuild forward is and has been greater in Manhattan than it has been in Newark. Way I see it.

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

True but all would still apply to a pick in the late 20's. Several of the picks the rangers acquired that accelerated their rebuild ahead of the devils were picks in the 20's right. Really no justification for this other than simply acknowledging that the cap space asset has been oversold to us and the urgency to move the rebuild forward is and has been greater in Manhattan than it has been in Newark. Way I see it.

Looks like you need to spend some time with a bottle to forget all these troubles

 

[britdevil]

Rangers could regress, easily. This is not a good team. They are in the same boat as us.

I don't see how a flukey lottery win makes them enviable. I seriously doubt they were too bothered when we picked up Hughes in similar fashion last year...

 

[Nico Hischier]

True but all would still apply to a pick in the late 20's. Several of the picks the rangers acquired that accelerated their rebuild ahead of the devils were picks in the 20's right. Really no justification for this other than simply acknowledging that the cap space asset has been oversold to us and the urgency to move the rebuild forward is and has been greater in Manhattan than it has been in Newark. Way I see it.

I just don’t want to go down this rabbit hole using this logic of what could have been... what could have been if we never traded for Cory. What could have been if took provorov and pettersson

we have an opportunity now to weaponize our cap space and make some shrewd moves like the one you are talking about. Hopefully fitz can make some good ones

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

I'm not sure how the cap space asset has been "oversold" to us especially when you simply keep harping on one move that the Devils did not make. There are 30 other teams in the league that are trying to make good moves too.

Pretty much every year the Devils have made a move to use their cap space or prey on other team's lack of it.