Devils 2019 offseason team discussion (news and notes) VI

[Hischier and Hughes]

Unless Hall moves:

Hall, Hischier, Palmieri, Hughes, Zacha, Bratt, acquired forward, then prospects like Boqvist, Bastian, Studenic, Anderson, Talvitie....

There is NO ROOM for a project player who we dont need because were flush with forward talent now. Spending assets like our 3rd best d prospect on another project forward is against common sense

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

if Roslovic is a 'project player' then so is Zacha

Zacha should absolutely not be in the top 6 to start the year and I am maybe Zacha's biggest fan on this board. Its weird how against forward depth some of you guys are.

why are we bringing up freaking guys like Bastian and Studenic....?

 

[Triumph]

We see large swings in SV% from individual goalies from year to year regularly.

Not to mention that Greiss
will be 34 years old next season.

He was 33 years old last season.

And yes, we see large swings in SV% year to year. That's MY point. Try to find coaching inside those swings and you'll just tie yourself in knots. It can't be done beyond a few goals a year. Unless you just focus on one example which for certain people with bones to pick happens to be their favorite example.

 

[Emperoreddy]

See my response to Triumph above.

If Hughes and the kids growing were enough then would not be still saying the things he is saying.

He made one comment about needing talent when asked what we needed to do next year. It was pre-lotto, and it was the exact same thing Shero said.

Hall is not sitting in his house with a checklist of moves that need to be made. Shero isn’t in his office with a checklist of moves he needs to make to satisfy Hall either.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

if Roslovic is a 'project player' then so is Zacha

Zacha should absolutely not be in the top 6 to start the year and I am maybe Zacha's biggest fan on this board. Its weird how against forward depth some of you guys are.

why are we bringing up freaking guys like Bastian and Studenic....?

Are we gonna ice a bottom-5 defense for the rest of our time since people like you wanna continually trade for middle-6 forwards?

Forward depth is literally the LAST thing we need. Its not even remotely close how little we need forwards after we acquire a top-6 one this offseason and draft Jack as well as the numerous other picks we own.

“We have far more forwards then defenseman so lets trade one of our top-3 d prospects for yet another forward”

 

[devilsblood]

So if we can add a young player with upside for an affordable price we shouldn't do it because it wouldn't impress Hall enough? Isn't that kind of allowing Hall to dictate our moves? I understand we want to keep him, but I think doing things simply to impress him could be dangerous.

I agree, I don't like how this is playing out, especially with him coming off an injury that cost him 50 games.

Now am I misreading Hall's comments? Am I reading his comments right and Shero thins Hall is good enough to make moves to appease him? Am I reading his comments right and Shero is ballsy enough to build the team the way he wants? Maybe.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I don’t for one second believe Hall is trying to be assistant GM or bust behind the scenes.

This screams Devils fan paranoia.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Are we gonna ice a bottom-5 defense for the rest of our time since people like you wanna continually trade for middle-6 forwards?

Forward depth is literally the LAST thing we need. Its not even remotely close how little we need forwards after we acquire a top-6 one this offseason and draft Jack as well as the numerous other picks we own.

“We have far more forwards then defenseman so lets trade one of our top-3 d prospects for yet another forward”

so because we trade for Roslovic, who isn't likely to cost anything significant if he is moved, it means we cannot/should not trade for a DMan...? Again, not really sure what you're talking about. When did I ever say that?

You cannot scream about how great our forward depth is and then bring up Studenic or Nate freaking Bastian

 

[MadDevil]

you realize he played less than 10 minutes per game?

I wonder what you were saying at the time when Palmieri was acquired?

To be fair, Palmieri's production prior to us acquiring him was better than Roslovic's, but the premise of getting a young player that could break out with more opportunity is the same.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

To be fair, Palmieri's production prior to us acquiring him was better than Roslovic's, but the premise of getting a young player that could break out with more opportunity is the same.

Break out where?

Where on the roster does he fit? What D prospect are we moving dor him since thats what Winnipeg wants?

People seriously condone moving from our weakest position for yet another forward? I mean does common sense exist anymore?

Adding Roslovic for picks is fine, hell even another forward prospect if you really want. Whatever, still doesnt make sense but Im not gonna complain over it. But trading a defense prospect for him? Couldnt be a dumber move

 

[devilsblood]

He made one comment about needing talent when asked what we needed to do next year. It was pre-lotto, and it was the exact same thing Shero said.

Hall is not sitting in his house with a checklist of moves that need to be made. Shero isn’t in his office with a checklist of moves he needs to make to satisfy Hall either.

There have been multiple "we need talent" comments.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

Unless Hall moves:

Hall, Hischier, Palmieri, Hughes, Zacha, Bratt, acquired forward, then prospects like Boqvist, Bastian, Studenic, Anderson, Talvitie....

There is NO ROOM for a project player who we dont need because were flush with forward talent now. Spending assets like our 3rd best d prospect on another project forward is against common sense

Roslovic a 22-year-old who just put up 27 points playing less than 10 minutes per night. He plays on a team with a stacked forward group, and doesn't have too bright of a future there. Hence, his trade request.

How is that a "project player"?

 

[devilsblood]

Roslovic a 22-year-old who just put up 27 points playing less than 10 minutes per night. He plays on a team with a stacked forward group, and doesn't have too bright of a future there. Hence, his trade request.

How is that a "project player"?

Project player is probably not the right term. But proven player is not the right term either.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

Project player is probably not the right term. But proven player is not the right term either.

And who the hell called Jack Roslovic a "proven player"?

I cannot, for the life of me, understand why certain posters create narratives, project them onto other posters, and then bash those other posters for saying something that you created yourself.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

@Hidden Hair of Hynes since you seem to know better, tell me what moves you are making this summer if you were in charge.

I need trades and signings and what we gave up and paid for these players, thanks.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

Roslovic a 22-year-old who just put up 27 points playing less than 10 minutes per night. He plays on a team with a stacked forward group, and doesn't have too bright of a future there. Hence, his trade request.

How is that a "project player"?

Youre ‘projecting’ how he would do in a bigger role. A project player isnt always a nobody who you gamble on

And even if he is or isnt a project player - label aside - WE HAVE NO D PROSPECTS TO SPARE. Get him for picks then sure whatever, wouldnt bother me much besides the fact that were trading yet more assets for another forward

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

Youre ‘projecting’ how he would do in a bigger role. A project player isnt always a nobody who you gamble on

And even if he is or isnt a project player - label aside - WE HAVE NO D PROSPECTS TO SPARE. Get him for picks then sure whatever, wouldnt bother me much besides the fact that were trading yet more assets for another forward

I can't help but cringe that you're conflating "project" (a noun) with the action of "projecting." Holy ****

And then you quickly sweep aside your mess. Yikes.

The inclusion of a D prospect was a suggestion, pondering what the Jets' needs are. No one explicitly advocated that trade, yet here you are convulsing. It's ****ing bizarre. Every time.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Also it's very weird how you agree with SV% as a way to measure goalies' ability when it makes your point, but when something like 'Cory Schneider was a great goaltender for the Devils in 2013-2016' comes up, it's all 'well that's just a number and there's a lot of things that go into it and his rebound control is poor'

That's just it - I don't. Other than fishing the puck out of the net because of huge breakdowns in front of them, and the obvious lack of confidence visited upon them because of that - I don't see any particular 'new' wrinkle to Greiss, Halak nor Lehner's game - Greiss suddenly didn't develop faster reflexes at 34.

Which is why I don't think SV% is always a barometer of a goalie's play. Those guys all played the same way that they did in years past - it's just that the type of scenarios and gameplay and type of shots they were facing on the Islanders and Sabres was different and less predictable than what they faced on better defensive teams. I'll ignore the 'luck'/'magic'/shotcounting obfuscation.

Braden Holtby's SV% in years when he is coached by Barry Trotz: .920
Braden Holtby's SV% in years when he is not coached by Barry Trotz: .916

I'm sure that 4 goals every 1000 shots is coaching, and not personnel, chance, rules changes, the addition of 3v3, Holtby aging, etc.

Non Trotz sample set is pretty small - especially if you figure that the Caps probably played very similarly this year to the Trotz year before.

I don' t know man. You yourself are pointing to numerous variables that impact SV% and yet we're somehow holding it up as the holy grail of "how well a goalie plays".

As far as good coaches, good systems, etc - I think there are tons of goalie-friendly coaches. Bobrovsky goes from .890 in Philly to .932 playing behind Torts's shot-blocking festival in Columbus. Belfour goes from .884 sharks and .906 on the hawks to a regular .916 behind Hitch's Stars. Vanbiesbrouck goes to the trapping Panthers and has 4 of the best SV% years of his career that was headed to aged-backup status.

I think mostly it holds true for middling goaltenders - because you are going to get guys who's SV% really is legit - Hasek, Roy, Rask in their prime et al are going to stop a bazillion shots regardless of what is in front of them.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

I can't help but cringe that you're conflating "project" (a noun) with the action of "projecting." Holy ****

And then you quickly sweep aside your mess. Yikes.

The inclusion of a D prospect was a suggestion, pondering what the Jets' needs are. No one explicitly advocated that trade, yet here you are convulsing. It's ****ing bizarre. Every time.

Its not pondering, the Jets arent moving him for something besides a dman if they can help it. Which they can with how everyone talks about him.

And were really going to pay a 2nd round pick for a 3rd line forward? What are we a contender?

 

[JimEIV]

On the Defense I really think we are in an unavoidable holding pattern...

You have an obligation in my opinion to wait and see how players like Davies, Smith, and even Butcher, Mueller and Santini develop. Although I do believe that there is a great deal of redundancy is those Dmen...

The defense needs help but you are in a situation, I think, of either waiting for some guys to develop more or abandoning the slower more methodical build.

You can't stick all those guys in the AHL, they need to get some time.

I think we are just going to have to deal with some growing pains on D until the picture becomes a little clearer.

 

[MadDevil]

On the Defense I really think we are in an unavoidable holding pattern...

You have an obligation in my opinion to wait and see how players like Davies, Smith, and even Butcher, Mueller and Santini develop. Although I do believe that there is a great deal of redundancy is those Dmen...

The defense needs help but you are in a situation, I think, of either waiting for some guys to develop more or abandoning the slower more methodical build.

You can't stick all those guys in the AHL, they need to get some time.

I think we are just going to have to deal with some growing pains on D until the picture becomes a little clear.

Plus, the types of defensemen that are actually available probably aren't much better than what we have. Unless we go really big, which would likely involve shipping a top prospect + our 2020 1st (and potentially more) out, and I'm not sure we're where we should do that yet.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

@Hidden Hair of Hynes since you seem to know better, tell me what moves you are making this summer if you were in charge.

I need trades and signings and what we gave up and paid for these players, thanks.

And if I do are you gonna post your offseason moves?

I find that hard to believe. “Hey, take this test so I can criticize your scores without taking it myself’

But sure Ill play along.

Sign Eberle to a 6-year, 6.5 million dollar deal. No I dont want him at that many years but to think we’d get him for less is dreaming. The connection to Hall is too real like Shero to Jack is. This would be a mediocre signing but if it keeps Hall you do it, plus Eberle probably produces better than we expect albeit I hate his playstyle.

Trade our 2020 1st (top-5 protected), Will Butcher’s rights, and either another 3rd or a prospect equating to a 3rd for Jonas Brodin. This one is unlikely because it seems Minnesota’s GM has plans to try and compete according to rumors.

And sure Ill even add in trade a 2nd round pick thats not ours for Roslovic.

If Brodin is no-go then acquire Brodie as a stopgap who I wouldnt even re-sign, so no more than a 2nd+ for him. Hope Ty Smith is ready by then or acquire another dman in Brodie’s last year when the crop is much larger to pick from in 2020 FA for LHD.

Hall-Hischier-Eberle
Bratt-Hughes-Palmieri
Zacha-Zajac-Roslovic
Wood-Coleman-Bastian is who id pick here

Brodin/Brodie - Severson
Smith/Butcher - Vatanen
Greene - Mueller/Santini

If we move Butcher Smith easily slots into 2nd pair and can waiver minutes to Greene if need be.

 

[Triumph]

That's just it - I don't. Other than fishing the puck out of the net because of huge breakdowns in front of them, and the obvious lack of confidence visited upon them because of that - I don't see any particular 'new' wrinkle to Greiss, Halak nor Lehner's game - Greiss suddenly didn't develop faster reflexes at 34.

Well, there you go, you know that Greiss's reflexes weren't better. You have no idea what kind of coaching the goalies received or what flaws in their games might've been fixed. And I'm not a goalie coach guy, I don't really believe that goalie coaches do a whole lot other than keep a goalie's ability where it is.

Which is why I don't think SV% is always a barometer of a goalie's play. Those guys all played the same way that they did in years past - it's just that the type of scenarios and gameplay and type of shots they were facing on the Islanders and Sabres was different and less predictable than what they faced on better defensive teams. I'll ignore the 'luck'/'magic'/shotcounting obfuscation.

You usually give me a good exit point from these discussions and this is a good one. This is a completely absurd conclusion to make. How the f*** do you know that? How in the world can you make that claim without any evidence at all? You have NO EVIDENCE. You are just SAYING THINGS.

Non Trotz sample set is pretty small - especially if you figure that the Caps probably played very similarly this year to the Trotz year before.

Once again, you don't look anything up. Barry Trotz was hired in 2014. Braden Holtby faced over 4500 shots without Trotz being his coach.

I don' t know man. You yourself are pointing to numerous variables that impact SV% and yet we're somehow holding it up as the holy grail of "how well a goalie plays".

As far as good coaches, good systems, etc - I think there are tons of goalie-friendly coaches. Bobrovsky goes from .890 in Philly to .932 playing behind Torts's shot-blocking festival in Columbus.

Again, you just don't do any research. You think you know things and you do not. Tortorella wasn't in Columbus in 2012-13 - he was still in New York.

Belfour goes from .884 sharks and .906 on the hawks to a regular .916 behind Hitch's Stars. Vanbiesbrouck goes to the trapping Panthers and has 4 of the best SV% years of his career that was headed to aged-backup status.

Save percentage league-wide increased significantly in the years we are talking about here, so I don't even get into this stuff from the 90s. In 1993, the league-wide SV% was .883. By 1998, it was .904. So yeah, Hitchcock definitely increased SV%, but that's because hockey was a glorified scrum on ice before guys like him and Lemaire and Bowman helped transform the game into what we see now.

 

[NJDevs26]

Youre ‘projecting’ how he would do in a bigger role. A project player isnt always a nobody who you gamble on

And even if he is or isnt a project player - label aside - WE HAVE NO D PROSPECTS TO SPARE. Get him for picks then sure whatever, wouldnt bother me much besides the fact that were trading yet more assets for another forward

You're getting on people for projecting NHL players possible development then demanding we hold onto every prospect and draft pick like it's the end of the world. It's a bit contradictory, no? Prospects and draft picks are even less proven than current NHL players. For all we know almost any prospect could be 'just a depth guy' too. You gotta take chances somewhere, in some way to get better. You can't just draft, draft, draft and not trade or sign FA's at all. And even just drafting involves projection, as much as trying to find undervalued guys around the league.

 

[Emperoreddy]

There have been multiple "we need talent" comments.

Not really. The majority happened on wrap day. Ray has said it more times then Hall has.