In the context of the absolute phrase 'Don't sign depreciating assets', which is basically a total non-starter to even discussing how business operates in the NHL and any professional sports league. I assume you guys will be in here lamenting Bratt getting anything more than a 1 or 2 year deal, or Zacha's current deal, or maybe you guys don't really know what you're talking about and just yell about trading anyone over 30 because of the old saying about being a hammer and everything looking like a nail.
Devils 2019-20 team discussion (news and notes) - part XIII
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In the context of the absolute phrase 'Don't sign depreciating assets', which is basically a total non-starter to even discussing how business operates in the NHL and any professional sports league. I assume you guys will be in here lamenting Bratt getting anything more than a 1 or 2 year deal, or Zacha's current deal, or maybe you guys don't really know what you're talking about and just yell about trading anyone over 30 because of the old saying about being a hammer and everything looking like a nail.
You basically have to take half of whatever you got for Palmieri and deal it for a right wing. I'm liking what Merkley and Anderson have been doing but neither guy is ready for that responsibility.
The issue isn't resigning or not resigning anyone over the age of 30 to a max deal (term) because we have the cap room. This entire debate is about handing a huge deal to a player who's stock will be on the free fall once we'll be ready to contend and hand out lucrative deals to our core players (Blackwood, Smith, Hughes, Foote, 2020 1st round picks, etc).
Just because we can, doesn't mean we should. We have to think long term and that's exactly what management did with Coleman. To me, Imwould be shocked to see Palmieri on our roster as of Monday night or at the latest, come opening night of the 2020-21 campaign.
beekay414
Registered User
If that's the only concept you took out of it all, I'm sorry. It's not as black and white as "depreciating asset" or not like you're implying. Yes, every player can technically be considered a depreciating asset but, like I said, the comparison you chose to drastically make (by comparing a contract signed by someone a decade younger), it's like buying a new Ferrari compared to buying a used Dodge Charger. Tell me which one is worth more despite depreciating in initial value? Painting this picture like it's black and white in regards to value is completely disingenuous. You got stuck on a term and made it as broad as possible to make it fit your narrative. Nobody, in their right mind, would complain about a long term deal with a 21 year old player. It's not even remotely comparable to signing someone on the wrong side of 30. You know this. I know this.
Ol Dirty Bstrd
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Bourne: Tom Fitzgerald said the NHL is a 'man's league.' But...
Very relevant article for the crowd who thinks we should sell everyone close to the age of 30
Very relevant article for the crowd who thinks we should sell everyone close to the age of 30
Can confirm.
This is also nothing new for me. As referenced earlier, I'm a giants fan in baseball. I was basically apoplectic at not trading Madbum at the deadline (and honestly even years before) because I'm not a person his tends to mix sentimentality into sports.
My other favorite moving the goalposts argument since nobody has actually said that.
beekay414
Registered User
People really trying to stretch this out to make the "don't extend Palms" crowd look bad lol.
I mean, Bratt could be better at 27 than he is right now and there is basically no chance of Palmieri being better at 34 than he is right now, but sure, these are all the same thing.
Better Call Sal
Salnalysis
You're justified to your opinion, it's fine. That said, I'm not blinded by anything. If anything, your logic is blinded simply by his age and ignores the context of the production Palms has given us here consistently and is still doing consistently as of this moment. Neither you or I can predict what he will command for an extension here, nor who is willing to sign here as a free agent or who is available that can help bridge us now if we're trading him. It is way more wishful thinking to just assume we'll get similar production out of someone else on Nico or Jack's wing than the guy we currently have who has been able to do it consistently since he's been here.
I find it amusing that some posters just think that the people who want to keep him here are attached sentimentally rather than seeing he's the only consistent goal scorer we currently have and that extending him to add an additional $1.5 to $2 mil on his current cap hit won't be what I point the finger at in 5-6 years if by some miracle we're cap strapped. Considering our current situation, I'll be amazed if that ends up being the case.
No one has any issue bringing in players from the outside, but not everyone wants to trade every player we have to do it just because the team sucks right now. You don't need to do a complete tear down just because.
Also, your last point is beyond silly. A primary player is exclusively for those to get you to a Stanley Cup or a playoff berth? Even if that's the case, it doesn't deem every player in the next tier replaceable.
Prepare to be shocked. Not saying Palmieri's 100% to stay past Monday, not by any means, but I think it's better than even money at this juncture.
That's fine - you don't understand peak age. But sure, that was a bit of unnecessary strawmanning, but that's because 'Don't sign depreciating assets' is such a mind-bogglingly wrong way to think about sports, even without the context of the Devils. Teams in their window should be signing older players to long-term deals because they do get some value out of them even if they are ultimately inefficient to the cap - the marginal value of signing a good player to a bad contract is often better than signing nobody at all.
The Devils, in the position they're in, should be trying to improve next season from where they are now and should be trying to make the playoffs in 2021-22. Yes, Palmieri will not represent a cap savings, but the Devils will not need cap savings in the next 2 years and probably not in the next 4 - it will be very, very, very hard to cap out this team. One reason for that is that ELCs have stayed at basically the same amount while the cap has doubled, meaning that ELCs represent an even bigger cap savings than they used to, and the Devils should have plenty of ELCs for the next 5 years.
You and I can debate the merits of trading / keeping him at this point, but I actually am in agreement with you that it's unlikely he gets moved. I've been saying that for a while...I just don't think anyone will pony up what we would require to move him.
- Dec 20, 2018
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Compare the Anders Lee contract, 7x7m, with the Adam Henrique contract, 5x5.85m. Henrique is only 5 months older than Lee. Lee got a 5 yr NTC with becomes a modified NTC the last two years (15 team no trade list) while Henrique got a 5 yr modified NTC (10 team no trade list).
Now they’re two different players but I believe the difference between the deals mostly reflects when they were signed. Lee was an UFA who signed on July 3 while Henrique signed July 16 when he still had a year left on his current deal.
Not only was Lee an UFA, he was clearly Lou’s back up plan after he failed to sign Panarin. Lou was a legendarily great GM in NJ but his policy of never locking up key players before they reach UFA status hurts his teams. He took several key players to arbitration in their last RFA year even though that kills the chance to keeping them. I had no problem when he did it with a 31 yr old Holik, but taking a 30 yr Niedermayer to arbitration after he just won a Norris trophy instead of giving him the long term deal he wanted was the most infuriatingly dumb thing he ever did in NJ.
If Fitz or the new GM goes to Palmieri this off-season and tells him they consider him a key piece of the team’s future and includes some sort of NTC he will likely sign a deal similar to Henrique’s. It’s not like Hayes who was going to be a UFA. The Flyers had traded a 5th round pick to the Jets in order to sign him early and therefore they had to get the deal done before July 1st. Palmieri’s deal won’t be shorter than 5 years or dirt cheap but it still can be more team friendly than typical UFA deals. Palmieri is engaged, he has his charity here, he probably wants to sign a long term deal with a NTC, buy a house and start a family.
I also think we’re all spoiled by Tampa overpaying for Coleman, some may hate the trade but no one can act like Tampa didn’t pay up. Get scraps from Boston for Palmieri isn’t a dream come true.
If we trade Vatanen then at worst the Devils will give Palmieri and Gusev long term deals. These players don’t turn into a pile of bone dust when they turn 30, keeping them is not going to cripple this team.
Now they’re two different players but I believe the difference between the deals mostly reflects when they were signed. Lee was an UFA who signed on July 3 while Henrique signed July 16 when he still had a year left on his current deal.
Not only was Lee an UFA, he was clearly Lou’s back up plan after he failed to sign Panarin. Lou was a legendarily great GM in NJ but his policy of never locking up key players before they reach UFA status hurts his teams. He took several key players to arbitration in their last RFA year even though that kills the chance to keeping them. I had no problem when he did it with a 31 yr old Holik, but taking a 30 yr Niedermayer to arbitration after he just won a Norris trophy instead of giving him the long term deal he wanted was the most infuriatingly dumb thing he ever did in NJ.
If Fitz or the new GM goes to Palmieri this off-season and tells him they consider him a key piece of the team’s future and includes some sort of NTC he will likely sign a deal similar to Henrique’s. It’s not like Hayes who was going to be a UFA. The Flyers had traded a 5th round pick to the Jets in order to sign him early and therefore they had to get the deal done before July 1st. Palmieri’s deal won’t be shorter than 5 years or dirt cheap but it still can be more team friendly than typical UFA deals. Palmieri is engaged, he has his charity here, he probably wants to sign a long term deal with a NTC, buy a house and start a family.
I also think we’re all spoiled by Tampa overpaying for Coleman, some may hate the trade but no one can act like Tampa didn’t pay up. Get scraps from Boston for Palmieri isn’t a dream come true.
If we trade Vatanen then at worst the Devils will give Palmieri and Gusev long term deals. These players don’t turn into a pile of bone dust when they turn 30, keeping them is not going to cripple this team.
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EnglishDevil
Registered User
We have the luxury of time on our side with Palmieri & Gusev, both will be playing hard in contract years next season, so barring devastating injuries or unanticipated regression both will still be valuable assets at the TDL next season.
Yes we lose a little bit of value that comes with the added term, but perhaps we’re more successful next season and the idea of re-signing them becomes more palatable. Worst case we suck and Palmieri becomes next years Kreider, we’d almost certainly still get a 1st + a prospect for him.
I’d still prefer to sell high on him if the right offer comes along, but by no means does he HAVE to be gone by tomorrow evening.
Vatanen & Simmonds are 100% goners though.
Yes we lose a little bit of value that comes with the added term, but perhaps we’re more successful next season and the idea of re-signing them becomes more palatable. Worst case we suck and Palmieri becomes next years Kreider, we’d almost certainly still get a 1st + a prospect for him.
I’d still prefer to sell high on him if the right offer comes along, but by no means does he HAVE to be gone by tomorrow evening.
Vatanen & Simmonds are 100% goners though.
glenwo2
LINDY RUFF NEEDS VIAGRA!!
So.....how about that Dakota Mermis guy?
Not bad so far.
He looks like Scott Niedermayer in comparison to our JUNK at "D".
Not bad so far.
He looks like Scott Niedermayer in comparison to our JUNK at "D".
Better Call Sal
Salnalysis
On a positive note with Goose, he has 29 points in his last 38 games. Would love to see him shoot more, but man it's great to see how comfortable he's been getting here.
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I’d be surprised if Palmieri was still on the Devils and didn’t have an extension at the start of next season. There’s no point in waiting until he’s a UFA and then re-signing him.
I don’t know if Shero thought that a strong start this season would lead to the Devils keeping Hall but even if he knew Hall was a goner he couldn’t trade him right after a season ending knee injury.
Fitz or the new GM could trade Palms before the draft or before July 1st, or even later. Carolina probably hurt the return they got by trading Skinner in September but they were able to move him despite the odd timing.
If Palmieri were bad at defense or his game was based on speed than I would worry about signing him long term. But considering neither of those are true, I see no problem with him being the veteran leader on this team. Cap space is not going to be an issue with this team for a long time, and if it becomes an issue, that means all our young players hit big, and that's a good problem to have.
- Dec 20, 2018
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The Athletic article about Kreider had this bit about qualifying players for the AHL playoffs, the author was suggesting they do it for Kakko. I didn’t know it was that easy, maybe that’s something they consider for Hughes. I don’t know common it is though.
Here’s a link, but the paragraph I quoted is the only part where this is discussed.
Rangers reach decision day with Chris Kreider: Do they sign him or trade him?
Rangers reach decision day with Chris Kreider: Do they sign...
There's no upside to making Hughes available for the AHL playoffs. He's not really going to learn anything and even if he lights it up it probably won't give him more confidence that would make him better at the NHL level. He would also be taking a spot from someone who the experience would be more useful for. And there's also the possibility that if he has a poor showing, it brings the boo birds out and makes him less confident.
Darkauron
Registered User
Yeah let Hughes rest after the season. Let the other young kids who have been working hard down there their time go shine.
Pitaya
Prince of the Alps, Nico Hischier
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I think he will be gone tomorrow, unfortunately
He may get as much as Palmieri and isnt an engrained in the teams culture - would be a win win over moving Palmieri IMO
Sucks to do it but I very much doubt Gusev re-signs with the way the team is headed
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