Devils 2018-19 team discussion (news and notes) - part Xlll

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

I would LOVE to know what type of player we are getting back for Damon Severson, who as per @Hidden Hair of Hynes DOESN'T stink, but...from basically everything he has said, stinks.

my favorite HF trope.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

xxx - Vatanen
Mueller - Butcher
Greene - Smith
Santini/xxx

thats what I want to see it as next year

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

I would LOVE to know what type of player we are getting back for Damon Severson, who as per @Hidden Hair of Hynes DOESN'T stink, but...from basically everything he has said, stinks.

my favorite HF trope.

Take a look at what fans of teams are asking for from Toronto for a top 4 dman. Thats what we will get

and ive never said he stinks but you can stick to that if you like

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Take a look at what fans of teams are asking for from Toronto for a top 4 dman. Thats what we will get

and ive never said he stinks but you can stick to that if you like

right you never said it outright, but basically in everything that you are saying about him, you're implying it

I am asking you specifically (not what other people think)- what do you think we could get back for Severson?

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

right you never said it outright, but basically in everything that you are saying about him, you're implying it

I am asking you specifically (not what other people think)- what do you think we could get back for Severson?

no i havent

but heres a specific deal id make next week if. possible: ask for negotiation with Duchenes agent, Ottawa has done this before. Lets say Duchene goes reasonable dollars, just for arguments sake - 8-9m per for 6-7

Id move Severson+McLeod/Zacha+2nd/3rd, something along those lines as not many teams can afford Duchene long term nor have a roster player with term to offer which is what Ottawa will want for a signed Duchene

-insert likely berating of my offer even though no one else will pony up an offer-

edit: editing wasnt working at first

 

[Scooooooooooooot]

no i havent

but heres a specific deal id make next week if. possible: ask for negotiation with Duchenes agent, Ottawa has done this before. Lets say Duchene goes reasonable dollars, just for arguments sake - 8-9m per for 6-7

Id move Severson+McLeod/Zacha+2nd/3rd, something along those lines as not many teams can afford Duchene long term nor have a roster player with term to offer which is what Ottawa will want for a signed Duchene

-insert likely berating of my offer even though no one else will pony up an offer-

edit: editing wasnt working at first

Thats a lot for someone who could just be signed in July but I also dont know what his market would be. I would prefer to keep one of the add ons. What about a swap for Darnell Nurse and we take on Kris Russell or one of their bad contracts that we can just buy out or eat.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

Thats a lot for someone who could just be signed in July but I also dont know what his market would be. I would prefer to keep one of the add ons. What about a swap for Darnell Nurse and we take on Kris Russell or one of their bad contracts that we can just buy out or eat.

id also do this and have proposed similar before, Severson+ for Nurse would work well for us

but I think Edmonton covets Nurse moreso than Larsson if he didnt cost Hall

 

[Scooooooooooooot]

id also do this and have proposed similar before, Severson+ for Nurse would work well for us

but I think Edmonton covets Nurse moreso than Larsson if he didnt cost Hall

They dont love him too much seeing as they bridged him, and they want good passing d man so idk i think that could work. gotta get in quick before chiarelli is fired and we somehow get a random pick that becomes a top 6 forward.

 

[Scooooooooooooot]

I really want one of the main LHD from Anaheim or Byram, I think we need a two way 6'0 and above D man very badly.

 

[Monsieur Verdoux]

Coleman should go to the ASG then. I don't want to hear Palmieri. Coleman has been the more consistent of the two plus he excels on the PK.

If I remember correctly Stein, Masisak or someone else wrote couple weeks ago that Palmieri is subsitute for Hall.

 

[Better Call Sal]

If I remember correctly Stein, Masisak or someone else wrote couple weeks ago that Palmieri is subsitute for Hall.

Would make sense since he was on the Last Man In vote ballot.

 

[Triumph]

For the past two years it seems all I heard here was Moore was dragging down Severson, now this year it's Greene fault.

Next year he'll probably be playing with someone else new and that poor unnamed defenseman better watch out, because he will be the one holding Severson back from being a superstar I'm sure.

When does the blame for his lack of progress actually fall on Severson himself? Is a 25-35 points/year "defenseman" enough of an offensive hero that can escape all blame for his defensive shortcomings/lapses leading directly to goals against for people here? I mean, Vatanen has actually scored 35+ points twice in his career (Severson might get there this year for the first time) and gets roasted here with regularity for not playing defense properly.

It's not 'Greene's fault', but Greene is bad. His numbers away from Severson are very bad. Severson is actually propping him up, as ludicrous as this sounds. It's not a good pairing. Don't let your blind Severson hate fool you into thinking that Greene isn't bad - he is. If Severson had a LHD paired with him who wasn't a territorial sinkhole, he'd look better. He'd still make mistakes, but he would not have the opportunity to make as many mistakes.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

It's not 'Greene's fault', but Greene is bad. His numbers away from Severson are very bad. Severson is actually propping him up, as ludicrous as this sounds. It's not a good pairing. Don't let your blind Severson hate fool you into thinking that Greene isn't bad - he is. If Severson had a LHD paired with him who wasn't a territorial sinkhole, he'd look better. He'd still make mistakes, but he would not have the opportunity to make as many mistakes.

So please explain Greene's +1 to Seversons -13 with 75% of ES minutes together

Or will the Severson supporters continue ignoring this? Its literally the one place +/- serves a purpose

 

[Triumph]

So please explain Greene's +1 to Seversons -13 with 75% of ES minutes together

Or will the Severson supporters continue ignoring this? Its literally the one place +/- serves a purpose

It's a nightmare trying to untangle +/- when one site counts empty net goals and one does not. +/- on its own like this is totally useless. Natural Stat Trick has Severson as -11 and Greene as -7 at 5 on 5. Hockey-reference has Greene at -3 and Severson at -15 at even strength, which I assume is also counting 4 on 4 and 3 on 3.

Hynes has had too many R-R pairings this season - R-R pairings tend to be worse than L-L pairings because L-L pairings are more common - I can't think of a single RHD in the league who routinely plays their off-side while there are obviously lots of LHD who do it. So Severson is -4 with Vatanen which makes some sense even though it's also likely influenced by bad luck - these two should not be paired except in rare circumstances.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

It's a nightmare trying to untangle +/- when one site counts empty net goals and one does not. +/- on its own like this is totally useless. Natural Stat Trick has Severson as -11 and Greene as -7 at 5 on 5. Hockey-reference has Greene at -3 and Severson at -15 at even strength, which I assume is also counting 4 on 4 and 3 on 3.

Hynes has had too many R-R pairings this season - R-R pairings tend to be worse than L-L pairings because L-L pairings are more common - I can't think of a single RHD in the league who routinely plays their off-side while there are obviously lots of LHD who do it. So Severson is -4 with Vatanen which makes some sense even though it's also likely influenced by bad luck - these two should not be paired except in rare circumstances.

Whatever formula that Natural Stat Trick site uses is total garbage, theres literally no way theyre within -5 of each other

That aside, the point stands Greene is not dragging down Severson in any way shape or form and its likely Severson's lack of bantam-level defensive instincts that is doing it

What will it take for people to notice this will never change? You dont learn how to play more defensive after ~320 games so unless we shelter him with a superstar defensive partner whos like top 5 in his own zone...

If Severson wasn't such a good skater and in the neutral/offensive zone, he wouldnt still be here. He has to be one of the leagues worst defenseman in his own zone and that may work for another team with more responsibility in their end but Im sick of it here

 

[NJDevs26]

It's not a 'formula' if you read his post, they're just solely tracking 5-on-5 numbers. +/- includes situations like empty net 6-on-5, special teams PK, 4-on-4 and 3-on-3.

 

[Scooooooooooooot]

Whatever formula that Natural Stat Trick site uses is total garbage, theres literally no way theyre within -5 of each other

That aside, the point stands Greene is not dragging down Severson in any way shape or form and its likely Severson's lack of bantam-level defensive instincts that is doing it

What will it take for people to notice this will never change? You dont learn how to play more defensive after ~320 games so unless we shelter him with a superstar defensive partner whos like top 5 in his own zone...

If Severson wasn't such a good skater and in the neutral/offensive zone, he wouldnt still be here. He has to be one of the leagues worst defenseman in his own zone and that may work for another team with more responsibility in their end but Im sick of it here

this is ridiculous, he's not one of the worst in the league in his zone and you definitely dont watch enough other teams to even have a clue on that. Total games in the NHL matters, but there's no reason he can't get better hes still just 24 and D men dont all develop at the same rate or by a certain age. Saying he wouldnt be in the nhl without skill set is insane, obviously he wouldnt be in the nhl if he was a bad skater and not offensively gifted because thats his skillset. Vatanen is a -15 so is he worse than Severson? Because you have now quoted his +/- so many times and literally everyone on defense has a better +/- than vatanen so maybe he's a huge problem for every d man and drags every pair down.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

this is ridiculous, he's not one of the worst in the league in his zone and you definitely dont watch enough other teams to even have a clue on that. Total games in the NHL matters, but there's no reason he can't get better hes still just 24 and D men dont all develop at the same rate or by a certain age. Saying he wouldnt be in the nhl without skill set is insane, obviously he wouldnt be in the nhl if he was a bad skater and not offensively gifted because thats his skillset. Vatanen is a -15 so is he worse than Severson? Because you have now quoted his +/- so many times and literally everyone on defense has a better +/- than vatanen so maybe he's a huge problem for every d man and drags every pair down.

Considering I used +/- in a situation comparing two defenseman playing 75% ES minutes together, no you cant use +/- for Vatanen since he hasnt had a single stable partner.

Name me the defenseman on this team worse than Severson in our own end. You cant because there arent any. And betting on him becoming stronger in that area after 320 games is a bet Im not willing to take nor should Shero.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

It's not a 'formula' if you read his post, they're just solely tracking 5-on-5 numbers. +/- includes situations like empty net 6-on-5, special teams PK, 4-on-4 and 3-on-3.

then how do different websites have different results?

Unless its some conspiracy theory?

 

[Stephen Gionta]

Severson has not been bad in the defensive zone for over a year now. He isn't amazing but he is certainly not a liability.

 

[Scooooooooooooot]

Considering I used +/- in a situation comparing two defenseman playing 75% ES minutes together, no you cant use +/- for Vatanen since he hasnt had a single stable partner.

Name me the defenseman on this team worse than Severson in our own end. You cant because there arent any. And betting on him becoming stronger in that area after 320 games is a bet Im not willing to take nor should Shero.

In our own end it depends on a lot of things, Severson is arguably the best outlet passer on the back end. Severson also can make plays to separate the puck from opposing forwards and get the puck to forwards. He isn't strong on players in front of the net and needs to work on that. No one on this team besides mueller and santini are even good at that. His D zone IQ is probably the worst of the main 6 D men, best he has the best physical tools so thats why I think there is room for improvement. I think he has improved in his own zone this year and there is no reason to believe that cant continue to happen, not his total games played, not his or anyone else's +/- .

 

[Cult of Hynes]

For the past two years it seems all I heard here was Moore was dragging down Severson, now this year it's Greene fault.

Next year he'll probably be playing with someone else new and that poor unnamed defenseman better watch out, because he will be the one holding Severson back from being a superstar I'm sure.

When does the blame for his lack of progress actually fall on Severson himself? Is a 25-35 points/year "defenseman" enough of an offensive hero that can escape all blame for his defensive shortcomings/lapses leading directly to goals against for people here? I mean, Vatanen has actually scored 35+ points twice in his career (Severson might get there this year for the first time) and gets roasted here with regularity for not playing defense properly.

Severson was carrying around John Moore last year and Greene's corpse this year. Even Erik Karlsson would look like shit next to those two.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

In our own end it depends on a lot of things, Severson is arguably the best outlet passer on the back end. Severson also can make plays to separate the puck from opposing forwards and get the puck to forwards. He isn't strong on players in front of the net and needs to work on that. No one on this team besides mueller and santini are even good at that. His D zone IQ is probably the worst of the main 6 D men, best he has the best physical tools so thats why I think there is room for improvement. I think he has improved in his own zone this year and there is no reason to believe that cant continue to happen, not his total games played, not his or anyone else's +/- .

So he excels at everything offensive about the defensive game but nothing defensive in the defensive game...

and I dont see where he improved in his defensive game besides his one brilliant pick per game of a player with the puck for separation, which then is moot after a turnover and he isnt covering them anymore.

 

[haak84]

I realize free agency dreaming has taken over the board the past day or so, but back in the real world the Devils could be near and potentially below the cap floor if there are exchanges like Boqvist for MarJo and Cory is bought out/LTIR. If a goalie was willing to take a year contract we could overpay. My guess is that the Devils will make a deal that adds some salary for next year in a trade, but if that does not happen overpaying a player (goalie as example) for a year could be necessary to get to the floor.

That's fair but we'd be overpaying for what we already have imo . Unless they go after a proven starter. Id rather put that money towards overpaying for a prime free agent forward. It'd be better spent. Even in overpaying the goalies who take fair contracts may outperform. You just don't get your money's worth with that crop of goalies.

 

[Scooooooooooooot]

Severson was carrying around John Moore last year and Greene's corpse this year. Even Erik Karlsson would look like **** next to those two.

second part of this is egregious