Devils 2018-19 team discussion (news and notes) part V - OP warning

[Patrik26]

I either want to see Shero make a move or hear from Shero himself why he doesn't think he needs to make a move. They are not going to can Hynes. Not after that Behind the Glass talked him up so much. Nasreddine HAS TO GO. Someone has to be a scapegoat for this unacceptable play. You can't fire the players.

Please.

 

[Brooklyndevil]

Well, on the bright side we’re in the hunt for Hughes or Dach. That would take care of a second line center.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

That we have left handed defenders in the pipeline that can replace Butcher, so dealing him to fill other holes may be in our best interests?

I'm not naive to the point. It doesn't make it any sadder. I understand feeling confident in what Ty Smith will become, but do we really know whether Walsh can even come close to what Butcher did last year? Of course I'm excited about our prospects, but it seems like we could be getting ahead of ourselves thinking both of them will hit when Butcher's coming off an All-Rookie Team year.

Obviously we need to look to fill glaring holes, I'd just rather not part with a guy who I think is valuable and has potential still.

If I'm still missing the point, please enlighten me.

Okay, so we've at least established the point isn't "he had 3 bad games, trade him!" or "he's trash, get rid of him!", as has been misrepresented here. Progress!

You can disagree, totally fine. You're doing it without twisting words to fit some condescending pitch from up high. When you look at the roster and try and find pieces of value bringing good players back, I'd say Butcher is high on the list. Doesn't mean it he's bad or it isn't unfortunate that we can't keep everyone AND improve the team appreciably. That's just the reality of it. If you're going to go for it, at least try and work from a position of (relative) strength.

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

I don't think so. I think Butchers has many limitations to his game that aren't going to go away. And his value maybe as high as it is going to be right now.

I also think Butcher added to a solid D Corp could be an excellent asset. unfortunately this D Corp can't absorb a Dman that can only give you 12/13 ES minutes a night...and I don't see that changing anytime soon here for either Butcher or this this defense.

So depending on the offer I would definitely consider trading Butcher.

This. The scenario that is described above is how you can make a good trade. Good trades happen when another team needs an asset like Butcher. I do not think anyone is saying actively shop him, but I cannot believe some people view him as someone that could not be replaced eventually. We are in the middle of a rebuild. A good GM should be able to replace a Will Butcher over the course of a few years.

 

[Better Call Sal]

Okay, so we've at least established the point isn't "he had 3 bad games, trade him!" or "he's trash, get rid of him!", as has been misrepresented here. Progress!

You can disagree, totally fine. You're doing it without twisting words to fit some condescending pitch from up high. When you look at the roster and try and find pieces of value bringing good players back, I'd say Butcher is high on the list. Doesn't mean it he's bad or it isn't unfortunate that we can't keep everyone AND improve the team appreciably. That's just the reality of it. If you're going to go for it, at least try and work from a position of (relative) strength.

I get it, it's fair. I think some are simply jumping to the conclusion that it's because he's started off much slower than he did last year, that's more the counterpoint I'm offering. You and Aethon make sense where you're coming from.

I can absolutely admit I get attached to some players and he's one that I do think has potential with the right partner. That said, I understand we have to deal from a strength standpoint and it is indeed possible his value will not be higher if you needed to fill a hole elsewhere. I personally wouldn't want to see it, but he's likely an attractive piece to some teams and it would depend on what would be coming back the other way.

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

My favorite thing (not only here, but in general) regarding sports discussion is "Player X is struggling and isn't that good, we should trade him for something good!"

Makes total sense.

Ranks right up there with fans of teams that are rebuilding that want to trade potentially appreciating assets (first round picks) for soon to be depreciating assets (pending UFA's) because it makes next weeks lineup look better, Makes total sense.

 

[BahlDeep]

You guys are aware that Shero won't fire Hynes. He lived and died with Bylisma in pitt

 

[Devils Dominion]

This group does not like to be checked.
Other teams have caught on

 

[RSeen]

Why do we need to replace Butcher? Why can't we keep playing him on the 3rd pair? If he doesn't progress into a top 4 Dman, it does not mean you have to pay him like one. Play him on the 3rd pair with someone that compliments his game (Lovejoy, Santini etc.) and let him to continue to show strong results.

 

[Oneiro]

In general, I don’t think you can have a future defense that has the size of Smith, Butcher and Walsh. Plus Vatanen is not the biggest guy.

I am an IQ/skill-above everything-guy but that lack of size is very hard to overcome no matter how fast you play.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Ranks right up there with fans of teams that are rebuilding that want to trade potentially appreciating assets (first round picks) for soon to be depreciating assets (pending UFA's) because it makes next weeks lineup look better, Makes total sense.

when we were 4-0 and looked like we were ready to compete, yes, I was ready to make a move like that

Now, when it looks like we could have a top 5 pick (even though I still don't think we end up close to that bad), of course I don't want to trade our 1st.

Almost as if things sometimes change.

But let me guess- when we were 4-0 and dominating teams, you knew we'd fall this quickly.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

In general, I don’t think you can have a future defense that has the size of Smith, Butcher and Walsh. Plus Vatanen is not the biggest guy.

I am an IQ/skill-above everything-guy but that lack of size is very hard to overcome no matter how fast you play.

the game is changing. Look at a lot of the DMen that have been drafted high recently. Most of them are small/quick. Its the way the game is going.

 

[Camille the Eel]

The game is even speedier this year than last. Raw speed is the asset - and its coming at you with more size attached too. Watching Boston, Winnipeg, Vancouver, Toronto play this last week (yes even Vancouver) it was hard to escape the perception that both pace of play, and raw basic foot speed (they are not the same thing) are steadily progressing to a higher level, year-in, year-out over the past seasons including this one.

That’s the environment.

 

[BahlDeep]

I mean speed is important, but without proper structure, it's useless

 

[OmNomNom]

Well, on the bright side we’re in the hunt for Hughes or Dach. That would take care of a second line center.

pieces for willy nylander?

 

[NJDevs26]

the game is changing. Look at a lot of the DMen that have been drafted high recently. Most of them are small/quick. Its the way the game is going.

Except small and quick doesn’t help with the big and quick forwards on the good teams. Eventually you need size to box out.

 

[NJDevs86]

I am not throwing in the towel on the season but I am just curious, how does the 2019 NHL draft prospects look. Lots of talent in the top 10?

I do find it funny that the only year recently that there wasn’t a slam dunk #1 is the year we got it. I have no issue with Nico and he was the right pick but it’s funny how he is sandwiched by McDavid, Matthews, Dahlin and now Hughes.

 

[BenedictGomez]

the game is changing. Look at a lot of the DMen that have been drafted high recently. Most of them are small/quick. Its the way the game is going.

The game is getting quicker at all 6 positions, but "small" NHL defensemen?

No, not at all. And likely never will.

2018 D taken 1st Round
#1 R. Dalin 6'3"
#7 Hughes 5'10"
#8 Boqvist 6'0"
#10 Bouchard 6'2"
#12 Dobson 6'3"
#17 Smith 5'11"
#21 Merkley 5'11"
#22 Miller 6'4"
#24 Johannson 6'1"
#26 Bernard-Docker 6'0"
#27 Beaudin 5'11"
#28 Lundkvist 5'11"
#29 Sandin 5'11"
#31 Alexeyev 6'4"

That's 14 players, almost 1/2 the First Round, and the "smallest" player is 5'10", which isn't very small. Everyone's almost 6'0" or bigger.

2017 D taken 1st Round
#3 Heiskanen 6'3"
#4 C. Makar 5'11"
#14 C. Foote 6'4"
#15 Brannstrom 5'9"
#16 Valimaki 6'2"
#17 Liljegren 6'0"
#18 Vaakanainen 6'1"
#23 Joseph 6'2"
#29 Jokiharju 6'1"

The 2017 draft is much the same. One guy taken is small (Brannstrom @ 5'9" if we say that's small for D), every other D selection is a big guy of 6 foot or taller.

 

[Ripshot 43]

I am not throwing in the towel on the season but I am just curious, how does the 2019 NHL draft prospects look. Lots of talent in the top 10?

I do find it funny that the only year recently that there wasn’t a slam dunk #1 is the year we got it. I have no issue with Nico and he was the right pick but it’s funny how he is sandwiched by McDavid, Matthews, Dahlin and now Hughes.

Someone created or bumped this years draft thread recently. I would look there for info.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

The game is getting quicker at all 6 positions, but "small" NHL defensemen?

No, not at all. And likely never will.

2018 D taken 1st Round

#1 R. Dalin 6'3
#7 Hughes 5'10"
#8 Boqvist 6'0"
#10 Bouchard 6'2"
#12 Dobson 6'3"
#17 Smith 5'11"
#21 Merkley 5'11"
#22 Miller 6'4"
#24 Johannson 6'1"
#26 Bernard-Docker 6'0"
#27 Beaudin 5'11"
#28 Lundkvist 5'11"
#29 Sandin 5'11"
#31 Alexeyev 6'4"

That's 14 players, almost half the First Round, and the "smallest" player is 5'10", which isn't very really small. Everyone's almost 6'0" or bigger.

The 2017 draft is much the same. One guy taken is small (Brannstrom @ 5'9"), and every other D selection is a big guy.

5'10'' for a DMan absolutely is small.

 

[BenedictGomez]

5'10'' for a DMan absolutely is small.

And that's 1 guy. There's 8 of 14 who are Six footers or better.

And of the 6 who arent Six footers, 5 of them are 5'11". Point being, NHL defensemen are not "getting smaller".

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

6' even for a DMan is technically small based upon what the game used to be like IMO

regardless, this is semantics at this point.

 

[Blender]

And that's 1 guy. There's 8 of 14 who are Six footers or better.

And of the 6 who arent Six footers, 5 of them are 5'11". Point being, NHL defensemen are not "getting smaller".

I'd say they are getting bigger again, not smaller, since the crop of big guys who were taught to skate well are hitting that age now. Pre-2005 the emphasis was on huge lumbering guys, and after that it was fast guys, so a lot of smaller guys entered the league.

 

[Triumph]

The huge guys that used to be drafted every 1st round aren't being taken there much anymore. You go back to the late 90s and everyone was drafting some 6' 5" guy that they thought they needed to stop Eric Lindros. That's not the trend anymore. So sure, 5' 11" isn't small for an adult male, but it absolutely was below-average for the height of an NHL defensemen and probably still is.

 

[MartyOwns]

i don’t know how you can look at the last two years’ drafts and draw a conclusion on whether defensemen are getting smaller. you have to go back further.

the 2010 and 2011 drafts yielded 18 defensemen drafted in the first rounds. from what i can tell, only one of them (ryan murphy) was listed at under 6 feet. i’m not saying that proves anything because those were arbitrary years i chose, but my hypothesis would be that first round drafted defensemen are indeed ‘getting smaller’