OT: Developing situation in Edm(9 Dead)

[Replacement*]

Extradition of immigrant criminals. What do you do with domestic criminals? You treat them differently based on where they were born.

You're really stretching with that. Lets be quite clear here. We have particular immigrants to this country that come from largely lawless regions (can anybody say Somalia, Vietnam) where these individuals, families, are involved in organized crime even BEFORE they fraudulently obtain entry here through such trumped up means as refugee status.

I guess you can stick your head in the sand and pretend that there isn't a Vietnamese or Somalian organized crime problem here or that the murder rate for those selective populations is off the charts and make up a significant chunk of our annual homicides.

I wouldn't be saying any of what I'm saying if it wasn't specific to a person that was a member of a Vietnamese organized gang.

But in the names of PC everyday we all should all just ignore any such reference..

Its that kind of not questioning anything that leads Canada to be one of the easiest marks in the world for organized gang infiltration.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Extradition of immigrant criminals. What do you do with domestic criminals? You treat them differently based on where they were born.

You don't have the option of deporting your domestic criminals and you are stuck paying for their incarceration. Why should a country feel obligated to pay for criminals that came to their country by likely saying that they were going to be upstanding individuals? If it's an instance or two then whatever, it happens. If they are career trouble makers then 86 their ***** to wherever you can offload them.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

You're really stretching with that. Lets be quite clear here. We have particular immigrants to this country that come from largely lawless regions (can anybody say Somalia, Vietnam) where these individuals, families, are involved in organized crime even BEFORE they fraudulently obtain entry here through such trumped up means as refugee status.

I guess you can stick your head in the sand and pretend that there isn't a Vietnamese or Somalian organized crime problem here or that the murder rate for those selective populations is off the charts and make up a significant chunk of our annual homicides.

I wouldn't be saying any of what I'm saying if it wasn't specific to a person that was a member of a Vietnamese organized gang.

But in the names of PC everyday we all should all just ignore any such reference..

Its that kind of not questioning anything that leads Canada to be one of the easiest marks in the world for organized gang infiltration.

The more entities there will be the more turf wars there will be. IMO countries need to be wise about their immigration policies since they do a good enough job of creating a percentage of lousy domestic citizens as is.

 

[gofafeads]

You don't have the option of deporting your domestic criminals and you are stuck paying for their incarceration. Why should a country feel obligated to pay for criminals that came to their country by likely saying that they were going to be upstanding individuals? If it's an instance or two then whatever, it happens. If they are career trouble makers then 86 their ***** to wherever you can offload them.

So you currently have the option to deport immigrants based on crimes they committed in country?

A country should be obliged to pay for incarceration because one was born here?

What country will be willing to horde defected criminals?

Seems very short sighted and discriminatory.

How bout if said immigrant criminal committed a murder on a domestic individual? Would the families want those offenders to rot here or maybe roam free in a lawless country as replacement supposes vietnam and Somalia are?

Where do you draw the lines? You can't single out people because of where they were born. Nobody likes criminals but choosing to extradite some and retain others opens a whole new can of worms.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

So you currently have the option to deport immigrants based on crimes they committed in country?

A country should be obliged to pay for incarceration because one was born here?

What country will be willing to horde defected criminals?

Seems very short sighted and discriminatory.

How bout if said immigrant criminal committed a murder on a domestic individual? Would the families want those offenders to rot here or maybe roam free in a lawless country as replacement supposes vietnam and Somalia are?

Where do you draw the lines? You can't single out people because of where they were born. Nobody likes criminals but choosing to extradite some and retain others opens a whole new can of worms.

That's how it is here in the US, it's not like that in Canada? Criminals cost resources and having the ability to be rid of criminals that came to your country supposedly in good faith should be a right that a country has. Chances are that when someone comes to a new country and asks to live there they think of it as an upgrade to their own home whether it be for opportunity, quality of life, etc. Why should they be rewarded for bringing down the quality of life in that country? I am very pro immigration FTR as my family is filled with immigrants over time, however people that just come to a new country to do bad things should be able to have their citizenship revoked IMO.

 

[Bangers]

You're really stretching with that. Lets be quite clear here. We have particular immigrants to this country that come from largely lawless regions (can anybody say Somalia, Vietnam) where these individuals, families, are involved in organized crime even BEFORE they fraudulently obtain entry here through such trumped up means as refugee status.

I guess you can stick your head in the sand and pretend that there isn't a Vietnamese or Somalian organized crime problem here or that the murder rate for those selective populations is off the charts and make up a significant chunk of our annual homicides.

I wouldn't be saying any of what I'm saying if it wasn't specific to a person that was a member of a Vietnamese organized gang.

But in the names of PC everyday we all should all just ignore any such reference..

Its that kind of not questioning anything that leads Canada to be one of the easiest marks in the world for organized gang infiltration.

Vietnam is a largely lawless region??? The heavy-handed communist government there may beg to differ with you.

Sorry Replacement, I can't agree with you on this one. I've met just as many people from previously war-torn 3rd world ****holes that abhor crime and violence because they've seen the effects of it up close and personal; a person's level of criminality doesn't have anything to do with one's country of origin.

Marginalization and discrimination of ethnic minorities, on the other hand, does seem to play a large role.

Anyways, I'm sorry to hear about this tragedy. My thoughts go out to the friends and family of the victims.

 

[gofafeads]

That's how it is here in the US, it's not like that in Canada? Criminals cost resources and having the ability to be rid of criminals that came to your country supposedly in good faith should be a right that a country has. Chances are that when someone comes to a new country and asks to live there they think of it as an upgrade to their own home whether it be for opportunity, quality of life, etc. Why should they be rewarded for bringing down the quality of life in that country? I am very pro immigration FTR as my family is filled with immigrants over time, however people that just come to a new country to do bad things should be able to have their citizenship revoked IMO.

I always thought it was unconstitutional to revoke citizenship especially if you defected (no dual citizenship cause you have no ties to any other country where would you go lol cause your defected country will not take you back, you deserted them) but with recent terrorism and other issues, debates have arisen. Here is an article

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news/canada/2014/10/23/lawyers_argue_law_to_strip_terrorists_of_citizenship_is_unconstitutional.html

I know that incarcerating people takes resources but would victims approve of having immigrants deported, not knowing if they are being incarcerated or running loose?

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Thanks, I'll look into that when I get some time.

 

[BarDownBobo]

This story made the news here in Macau. Unbelievable seeing my home making the news for this kind of thing.

 

[OiledUp]

Sad story. Made the news over here as well. Don't understand why you talk about organized crime though when this looks like domestic violence in it's most extreme form. From what I've read and the way it's been reported there seems to be some mental illness involved. I any regard a very tragic event.

 

[rosemount289]

Isn't everyone a..................???

So you currently have the option to deport immigrants based on crimes they committed in country?

A country should be obliged to pay for incarceration because one was born here?

What country will be willing to horde defected criminals?

Seems very short sighted and discriminatory.

How bout if said immigrant criminal committed a murder on a domestic individual? Would the families want those offenders to rot here or maybe roam free in a lawless country as replacement supposes vietnam and Somalia are?

Where do you draw the lines? You can't single out people because of where they were born. Nobody likes criminals but choosing to extradite some and retain others opens a whole new can of worms.

Is everyone that lives here in Canada not an immigrant?.......or descendants of immigrants?..........except Native people.

Where you are born has nothing to do with criminality............If you are poor or starving we all might be incline to steal.

Associating crime or criminals with nationality is ridiculous. As soon as we see a visible minority we assume that the race of a person has to do with his crimes.

But if a person is white we will not say a thing about race but how about mass murders like Jeffrey Dahmer?

 

[dhawken]

That's how it is here in the US, it's not like that in Canada?
.....

The US is not even deporting non-citizen criminals these days.

 

[fuswald]

Is everyone that lives here in Canada not an immigrant?.......or descendants of immigrants?..........except Native people.

...

Anybody born in Canada is native. If you're talking about the group who's ancestors arrived first, first nations. Pretty sure everybodys ancestors immigrated some time.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

This is a tragic situation and another tragic example of the domestic violence problem this province has.

As for "those damned foreigners", maybe it's time those that "think" that way look in the mirror a bit.

 

[Replacement*]

Vietnam is a largely lawless region??? The heavy-handed communist government there may beg to differ with you.

Sorry Replacement, I can't agree with you on this one. I've met just as many people from previously war-torn 3rd world ****holes that abhor crime and violence because they've seen the effects of it up close and personal; a person's level of criminality doesn't have anything to do with one's country of origin.

Marginalization and discrimination of ethnic minorities, on the other hand, does seem to play a large role.

Anyways, I'm sorry to hear about this tragedy. My thoughts go out to the friends and family of the victims.

tbh I'm less familiar with the current state of Vietnam. With Somalia I'm not sure how anybody would disagree with me.

But as far as Vietnam a land that was strife with brutal war of half a century and is used to murder, mayhem, death, would be severely impacted. How much so is I think not very well understood. To put a very brief description to it the concept and ideal of life, and valuing life would be much much different in a region ravaged by war for generations than it would be here. That's my concern as it relates to a case like this. That's my concern as it relates to murder and homicide being much greater in Vietnamese and Somalian communities.

Also maybe you've heard of the Crazy dragons, a local based gang here started by Vietnamese Gang members. This article references it;

http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2014/...ntified-as-edmonton-criminal-david-thanh-lam/

The gang has been smuggling cocaine from L.A. through Vancouver to Edmonton and then into northern communities. Founded in the mid-90s by Vietnamese immigrant youth, the Dragons, like many Lower Mainland gangs, is now more multi-cultural.

In 2007, the RCMP in Alberta said the gang was more of a threat than the Hells Angels.

“The most noticeable criminal group in Alberta — with cocaine operations throughout the province as well as in parts of British Columbia, Saskatchewan and the Northwest Territories — is known to police as the Crazy Dragons,” a police intelligence report released that year said.

Police also linked the Crazy Dragons to the deadly feud between Calgary street gangs, Fresh off the Boat (FOB) and FOB Killers (FK) by supplying guns to FOB. Crazy Dragon members have been convicted of trafficking and acts of violence up to murder.

Just because people don't pay any attention to these events doesn't mean they aren't occurring right under our noses or that they are a huge concern.

Note as well that Vietnamese ganglords have established Vietnamese gangs all over the world, all over Canada, and with Edmonton being a far from isolated example, but a jurisdiction that's easy enough to setup base in.

I guess for the rest of eternity I can pretend there are not regional affiliation with these kind of things and that there isn't any regional specific history that relates to these types of things. But I think its unmistakable that a people exposed to half a century of horrific war may be more susceptible to then become war like and use war like means.

I have no predudice against Vietnamese, Somalians. I am concerned with peoples that have been irrevocably impacted and beyond being able to live and coexist in a peaceful society. Which for some of these individuals and factions is the case.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

Yes Replacement, those damned Foreigners bringing all of their crime to our peaceful non-Foreign areas, where crime doesn't happen.

 

[Replacement*]

This is a tragic situation and another tragic example of the domestic violence problem this province has.

As for "those damned foreigners", maybe it's time those that "think" that way look in the mirror a bit.

That's incredibly simplistic Jimmi. Your comment is waged within a setup of PC beliefs that states that its now unconscionable to hilite a Nationality for any reason and suggest any implication due to that.

I just mentioned my concern specifically to Vietnamese that have been irrevocably impacted by half a century of war. You think that doesn't have any impact to a people? You think that doesn't harm them forever and make them different in any way? Some factions that are of Vietnamese heritage continue to be impacted and exhibit some of that through expressions of warlike, ganglike behavior wherever they go. Nobody is saying every person of Vietnamese heritage.

Personally I abhor what was done to Vietnam. Its yet another criminal example in world history that Powerful countries conducted war in this impoverished reason for decades. I wish none of that ever occurred. But I don't doubt it had its terrible impacts that for some are irreversible.

As far as Somalian community not sure how familiar you are but the local community after years of seeing repeated and ongoing Somalians involved in murder and being homicide victims have been cooperating with police for years here and have had to recognize the nationality role and how Somalians are much more likely to be involved in murder and homicide stats here than other people. Its irrefutable. I guess the Somalian community looking at stats on this and finally accepting a huge problem within the community must be as *prejudiced* as me..

Or that they're moving on and looking at, and realizing, realistically, that there are certain problems within their community.

 

[Replacement*]

Yes Replacement, those damned Foreigners bringing all of their crime to our peaceful non-Foreign areas, where crime doesn't happen.

Not at all the case JImmi but I doubt you'll understand the nuance involved. We've gone from a society with commonplace prejudiced views to one that in response, and reaction, has shifted to a PC view that differences, selective impacts, how it impacts a people should never be raised, never mentioned, and if one does so one is immediately guilty of perceived prejudice. (I could cite this thread as present example)

But you may realize that too is a narrow view and as limited as the other polar extreme. There are significant differences that impact regions in the world differently. Theres countless books written on these subjects. I imagine you think any book that looks at how a people or region are profoundly impacted should be burned in the interests of refuting knowledge.

 

[Replacement*]

Is everyone that lives here in Canada not an immigrant?.......or descendants of immigrants?..........except Native people.

Where you are born has nothing to do with criminality............If you are poor or starving we all might be incline to steal.

Associating crime or criminals with nationality is ridiculous. As soon as we see a visible minority we assume that the race of a person has to do with his crimes.

But if a person is white we will not say a thing about race but how about mass murders like Jeffrey Dahmer?

Unfortunately in this instance this just isn't correct.

The reason why is contained in your next statement.

Sociologically we know your bolded statement is erroneous. For example populations exposed to chronic poverty and hardship are that much more likely to be involved in crime. Especially if criminal activity was a main learned recourse to survival. if survival, for any population or demographic involves crime as a means than crime will be over represented in that population or demographic.

So if you mistook what I am stating I'm sorry if I could've worded it better. I think we probably have some similar views. If you can't see how war savaged Vietnam, as a country and region, and its citizens, would be profoundly impacted on every level through half a century of brutal warfare and strife than we will remain divided on this.

I encourage anybody that hasn't to read books like the "10 thousand day war" for more on the decades of horrific war peoples of this country have experienced. One of the more deplorable international events that has occurred.

I have the greatest sympathy for the hardships the Vietnamese people have gone through. But I have no compassionl for individuals that will continue to invoke hate and murder and harm even their own communities. As in this tragic case. The latter is an example whereby impacts are sustained, where murder and horrific loss of life is sustained. That's the real tragedy is that some are irreparably harmed and spend their lives harming others. Even in their own community, even in their own family. That is truly tragic.

 

[DJ EarWax]

Vietnamese organized crime hasn't been much of an issue since the late 90's. I agree that if you've immigrated here and commit crime, you should be sent back to your country of origin. I was born in Canada and I am as native to this country as any aboriginal is. Sure, they may have more generations here than I, but they're ancestors immigrated here too.

 

[The Moose]

Unfortunately in this instance this just isn't correct.

The reason why is contained in your next statement.

Sociologically we know your bolded statement is erroneous. For example populations exposed to chronic poverty and hardship are that much more likely to be involved in crime. Especially if criminal activity was a main learned recourse to survival. if survival, for any population or demographic involves crime as a means than crime will be over represented in that population or demographic.

So if you mistook what I am stating I'm sorry if I could've worded it better. I think we probably have some similar views. If you can't see how war savaged Vietnam, as a country and region, and its citizens, would be profoundly impacted on every level through half a century of brutal warfare and strife than we will remain divided on this.

I encourage anybody that hasn't to read books like the "10 thousand day war" for more on the decades of horrific war peoples of this country have experienced. One of the more deplorable international events that has occurred.

I have the greatest sympathy for the hardships the Vietnamese people have gone through. But I have no compassionl for individuals that will continue to invoke hate and murder and harm even their own communities. As in this tragic case. The latter is an example whereby impacts are sustained, where murder and horrific loss of life is sustained. That's the real tragedy is that some are irreparably harmed and spend their lives harming others. Even in their own community, even in their own family. That is truly tragic.

Do you have any evidence that the individual involved in these murders and which had a criminal record, was involved in criminal activity before he come to Canada? In Canada, what is the percentage of Vietnamese or Somalis involved in criminal activity out of total Vietnamese or Somali population?

If an immigrant becomes Canadian citizen then he has equal rights with any other Canadian citizen. Unless you can prove he lied on his immigration / citizenship application, in which case the citizenship may be revoked, there is no basis to deport him. Why would another country be responsible for crimes committed by a Canadian citizen on Canadian soil?

 

[Replacement*]

Do you have any evidence that the individual involved in these murders and which had a criminal record, was involved in criminal activity before he come to Canada? In Canada, what is the percentage of Vietnamese or Somalis involved in criminal activity out of total Vietnamese or Somali population?

If an immigrant becomes Canadian citizen then he has equal rights with any other Canadian citizen. Unless you can prove he lied on his immigration / citizenship application, in which case the citizenship may be revoked, there is no basis to deport him. Why would another country be responsible for crimes committed by a Canadian citizen on Canadian soil?

These are complex questions. But several countries are taking a hard look, and harder line, on immigration and screening and practice due to some of the concerns I raise.

In anycase the convo is best left at this point. I've explained myself, and I felt it necessary to do that due to kneejerk proclamations that I'm prejudiced. If you or anybody wanted to further discussion civilly in pm then I am fine with that.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

These are complex questions. But several countries are taking a hard look, and harder line, on immigration and screening and practice due to some of the concerns I raise.

In anycase the convo is best left at this point. I've explained myself, and I felt it necessary to do that due to kneejerk proclamations that I'm prejudiced. If you or anybody wanted to further discussion civilly in pm then I am fine with that.

It's not "kneejerk" it's been clearly presented to us.

 

[Replacement*]

It's not "kneejerk" it's been clearly presented to us.

I've clarified my point throughout. You refuse to look at that while assuming the worst.

You don't want to engage, consider, discuss, you want to call me names.

correct?

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Is everyone that lives here in Canada not an immigrant?.......or descendants of immigrants?..........except Native people.

Where you are born has nothing to do with criminality............If you are poor or starving we all might be incline to steal.

Associating crime or criminals with nationality is ridiculous. As soon as we see a visible minority we assume that the race of a person has to do with his crimes.

But if a person is white we will not say a thing about race but how about mass murders like Jeffrey Dahmer?

If my children were starving I would do anything in my power to feed them legal system be damned. Any parent would IMO. The point that I am making which IMO has been missed is that it is a privilege to be allowed to move to a place like Canada. The mass immigration of the previous 2-3 centuries is long gone and it is clearly a different time now. If countries like the US and Canada just started invited human scum then they would add to our existing human scum and hurt the countries that they are coming to.

The US is not even deporting non-citizen criminals these days.

Interesting. When my dad came here to the US from Canada many years ago it was a very real possibility if you got into trouble.