Prospect Info: Detroit Red Wings 2021 Summer Prospect #4

[r0bert8841]

And what about Berggren's playstyle raises red flags? This guy isn't lacking in hockey sense, and the SHL may not be as physical as the AHL but it's still a fairly physical league.

You ask this question like you haven’t seen the arguments people have made in the last 2 threads.

 

[Bench]

Look at what the Avs paid for Keumper and that dude can't even stay healthy.

Indeed. Ned came at a discount because he has less than 30 game started. As optimistic as I am about him, he's still not a proven starter. We're buying potential after he looked amazing in his first season.

 

[Syckle78]

Im just confused on why this is getting so heated. Some people think Berggy can and will be better than Goose. Heck, some people seem to think Goose was better than Goose....nobody is saying that Nyquist is trash, they are just pointing out that he never hit the lofty expectations that we had collectively after his big Junior year, first AHL seasons and his super hot first year in the NHL. To me, what Berggren did at 20 years old in the SHL is just as impressive as Nyquist tearing up college at 20/21. I had Berggren as a 1st rounder and am pumped that he is putting it all together. PD is giving us a little extra tabloid info that maybe sheds a little light on why things didnt turn out like we hoped with Nyquist, it's not that big of deal and I thought it was interesting. No need for everyone to get their dander up.

I don't get this idea that Nyquist didn't live up to expectations. Unless you had unrealistic expectations of him being the next Hank or Pavs I would argue the vast majority here were spot on about where he ended up in his career. Also it seems like people are using his unsustainable small sample size hot streak as an argument that he didn't reach his ceiling when that was never ever going to be his ceiling. In regards to his lack of drive all of a sudden? If that was ever in question it would of been brought up years ago not suddenly a decade later when he's in a different organization. That nonsense needs to be flushed right down the crapper.

 

[Syckle78]

Indeed. Ned came at a discount because he has less than 30 game started. As optimistic as I am about him, he's still not a proven starter. We're buying potential after he looked amazing in his first season.

Right, we benefited from the fact Carolina chose to be too cheap to see what they had. It's absolutely insane to me they wouldn't gamble 2 years and 3m to see how he would work out.

 

[lilidk]

I think we should not start #5 until October

 

[Frk It]

But why is there so much more hype around Cossa when he's played in the weakest of the 3 CHL leagues and in the weakest division in the WHL? He hasn't played in any of the major tournaments, nor has he played the majority of a full season.

And what about Berggren's playstyle raises red flags? This guy isn't lacking in hockey sense, and the SHL may not be as physical as the AHL but it's still a fairly physical league.

When did the W become the weakest CHL league?

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I think he can be a contributor even if he doesn't wind up well up the lineup. I have said before I think a line of Veleno - Rasmussen and Berggren could do a lot of damage as a third line. It is kind of what I hope happens. Well or one of these guys out-kicks their coverage and goes up into the top 6. I don't think Berggren is all boom or bust. He has high end skating, is a very good passer and competes at an appropriate enough level to think coaches will like him. I hope he can add a little more to his shot or I think teams will figure out how to defend him at the NHL level. But we will see, he is going to play in the league barring a nasty injury, he has that talent. Where he ultimately ends up I am not sure.

I am going to disagree with you on this one. There is always some risk of European forwards not translating by the simple removal of physical space and the resulting speed produced therefrom. Some translate, some don't. Personally I don't think he is going to be able to rag the puck on the perimeter for long extended stretches like he did in the SHL. He will need to recognize the advantageous situations of his line mates much faster to be effective over here. He needs to do more with the puck while having it less (call it being more efficient with the puck). On the small ice you normally only get one opportunity to make a play with the puck. It is not often that you can wait with the puck for another to open.

He can make it and be very successful, he is just going to need to change the way he plays a bit. I can't even fault him from playing the way he does. It absolutely works on the big sheet, even against bigger, stronger and faster guys.

 

[jaster]

None of that goes against anything I said though. A guy can be awesome, just terrific in every way. And still lack that extra drive that seperates the best players from the very good ones. If you don’t think Nyquist lacks that, fair. I think he does, and I think Berggren very well might not. Draft position indicates something is different between them, and it can’t all be skill.

What you just quoted from me and what you previously said are not compatible, no. You went to some lengths to paint a picture of Nyquist through perceived faults, including admitting that you think you know he lacks internal drive to be great in the NHL (which is ridiculous), and they absolutely do not jive with the reality when he was in Detroit. We fans are typically only privy to a sliver of the pie when it comes to these players, maybe a normal sized slice, but you think you see the whole pie. It is patently ridiculous.

What happened here is that a comparison was made between Berggren and Nyquist, you were clear that you didn't like it, and have been firing away at Gus Nyquist ever since. Well, have your fun. Whatever you have to do I guess to convince yourself of Berggren's impending greatness. Good luck with that.

 

[MBH]

I don't get this idea that Nyquist didn't live up to expectations. Unless you had unrealistic expectations of him being the next Hank or Pavs I would argue the vast majority here were spot on about where he ended up in his career.

I think a lot of people had that expectation.
I think Gus failed to live up to the expectations he set for himself in 13-14 when he went 28-20-48 in 57 games.
That's a 40 goal, 70-point pace. Frankly, he never came close to it.

 

[MBH]

This is finally where things get interesting, the top 3 was mostly unanimous.

For me the margin is razor thin between Berggren and Cossa.

Cossa is the 4th best because his potential is a lot bigger than Berggren, pun intended.

I think things got interesting at #2.

 

[jaster]

I don't get this idea that Nyquist didn't live up to expectations. Unless you had unrealistic expectations of him being the next Hank or Pavs I would argue the vast majority here were spot on about where he ended up in his career. Also it seems like people are using his unsustainable small sample size hot streak as an argument that he didn't reach his ceiling when that was never ever going to be his ceiling. In regards to his lack of drive all of a sudden? If that was ever in question it would of been brought up years ago not suddenly a decade later when he's in a different organization. That nonsense needs to be flushed right down the crapper.

I have no connections with the Wings any longer, but I had several for years after coming out of college in the mid-2000s, including during Nyquist's first few years in Detroit. I was privy to a somewhat consistent stream of fun and interesting tidbits. The narrative suggested in this thread is kind of gross because it paints a picture of Nyquist that is not close to reality. Nyquist worked very hard on his craft and was one of the young players who set the example at the Joe with his level of dedication. What's been suggested in this thread is something significantly less, and it is false.

 

[jaster]

When did the W become the weakest CHL league?

I am assuming he means it's because the W is known as the more defensive-minded of the three. Or lacks as much offense if you want to approach it from the other side. I guess? Not sure that makes it the weakest league, even for goalies.

 

[jfrank21]

I don't get this idea that Nyquist didn't live up to expectations. Unless you had unrealistic expectations of him being the next Hank or Pavs I would argue the vast majority here were spot on about where he ended up in his career. Also it seems like people are using his unsustainable small sample size hot streak as an argument that he didn't reach his ceiling when that was never ever going to be his ceiling. In regards to his lack of drive all of a sudden? If that was ever in question it would of been brought up years ago not suddenly a decade later when he's in a different organization. That nonsense needs to be flushed right down the crapper.

Sorry, but that's kind of crap. People were absolutely clamoring about him being our next "star". He put up 48 in 57 at 24 years old. There is no way that people thought that was his "peak". They assumed that because of his slow simmer (Holland style) in college and the AHL that the best was yet to come. Instead that was his best year and he never developed enough physically to play a different style than his slippery, puck distributing middle six role. I've seen enough fiestiness from Berggren to believe that he has more in him. But I guess we'll see. I think we're all hoping for the best here and I find it hilarious to watch people get their panties in a bunch about the besmirching of Nyquist's good name.

 

[jaster]

I think we're all hoping for the best here and I find it hilarious to watch people get their panties in a bunch about the besmirching of Nyquist's good name.

You find the pushback against concocting false narratives and painting pictures that aren't true about previous players in order to prop up a prospect to be hilarious? Huh. Ok. I guess laughing is healthy at least.

I've never really been bothered by the overexhuberance and overrating of prospects on this forum. I mean, it's silly, but it's also kinda the point after all. But some of you go a bit far with your methods for cheering on your favorite prospects.

 

[jfrank21]

You find the pushback against concocting false narratives and painting pictures that aren't true about previous players in order to prop up a prospect to be hilarious? Huh. Ok. I guess laughing is healthy at least.

I've never really been bothered by the overexhuberance and overrating of prospects on this forum. I mean, it's silly, but it's also kinda the point after all. But some of you go a bit far with your methods for cheering on your favorite prospects.

I guess I'm just surprised at how much people are taking offense to it. It's a line of theory, I dont think it's any crazier than half of the other nonsense we see get bandied about on these boards. I personally had never heard those rumers so I thought it was interesting and asked for more info. He provided links to those rumors and people piled on him for dragging out the conversation. I dont think that's fair.

 

[Pavels Dog]

That doesn't prove what you're saying. You're making it seem like an either/or thing with Nyquist's education, but his time in the NCAA he was one of the top players year in and year out. I get you like the new kid, but, nothing in this proves Nyquist was an entitled rich kid who put hockey second. It actually shows pretty amazing maturity and someone who doesn't have tunnel vision.

I think this is a less sensitive topic in sweden which might what's causing some people to resort to snap judgements and try to put words in my mouth.

My only argument is that there's a difference in their path as 15-20 year olds.
That difference can be seen in draft position, in one being on national teams and the other not.
It can be seen in one playing professional hockey at 18 and the other at 22.
It's a difference that could be meaningless, and in no way is it a difference between a "good guy" and a "bad guy" or a "hard working kid" and a "Lazy entitled rich kid".
But it's a difference.

In regards to his lack of drive all of a sudden?

Don't see it as black/white and it makes more sense. If there's a sliding scale from 0 to 10, and the average NHLer is at a 5, where would you place Nyquist?

 

[KJoe88]

I really REALLY like Berggren. I think he’s going to surprise and be a Nyquist+ type player, but Cossa has the potential to be a franchise goalie. Something the Wings haven’t had… in an eternity.

 

[Konnan511]

The drop off is pretty steep for goalie salaries, #13 makes $5M which is about the same as a good second line winger. (Note that the list contains an overpaid Bob and soon to retire MAF).

Browse - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

I wouldn't say middle six, but one can make the case for second liners.

Vezina Trophy-winning MAF.

 

[TheMule93]

this is a real tough one!

 

[Henkka]

Vezina Trophy-winning MAF.

"soon to retire" -MAF
"Vezina Trophy winning" -MAF
"traded for free" -MAF

 

[Syckle78]

I think a lot of people had that expectation.
I think Gus failed to live up to the expectations he set for himself in 13-14 when he went 28-20-48 in 57 games.
That's a 40 goal, 70-point pace. Frankly, he never came close to it.

That is not an expectation he set for himself.You can't just take the hottest streak of a players career and say whelp that's the expectation for your ceiling now. If anyone had that expectation for him going forward that is on them not on him. There were a handful of people that thought he was going to be a key cog in the continued success of the team without going through a rebuild. Those people were also delusional about that.

 

[Syckle78]

Sorry, but that's kind of crap. People were absolutely clamoring about him being our next "star". He put up 48 in 57 at 24 years old. There is no way that people thought that was his "peak". They assumed that because of his slow simmer (Holland style) in college and the AHL that the best was yet to come. Instead that was his best year and he never developed enough physically to play a different style than his slippery, puck distributing middle six role. I've seen enough fiestiness from Berggren to believe that he has more in him. But I guess we'll see. I think we're all hoping for the best here and I find it hilarious to watch people get their panties in a bunch about the besmirching of Nyquist's good name.

What people? How many people? I can say "people" said just about anything om here and I would be technically correct. But there were only a handful of them, and the vast majority were warning to temper expectations for both him and Tatar going forward. Again it was only the extreme few that argued up and down that a rebuild was not in order that banked on Nyquist and Tatar would turn into stars when the rest of us were like no hold up these guys are complimentary pieces on championship rosters.

 

[FabricDetails]

I have no connections with the Wings any longer, but I had several for years after coming out of college in the mid-2000s, including during Nyquist's first few years in Detroit. I was privy to a somewhat consistent stream of fun and interesting tidbits. The narrative suggested in this thread is kind of gross because it paints a picture of Nyquist that is not close to reality. Nyquist worked very hard on his craft and was one of the young players who set the example at the Joe with his level of dedication. What's been suggested in this thread is something significantly less, and it is false.

And he loved playing for Babs, I'm sure. Regardless of Franzen's social media signaling. :-P

(EDIT/ADD: In no way is that comment intended as a response to Nyquist's "losing his drive"...)

 

[ricky0034]

My only argument is that there's a difference in their path as 15-20 year olds.
That difference can be seen in draft position, in one being on national teams and the other not.

or the guy who overcame adversity to make the NHL as a 4th round pick vs the guy who was a borderline 1st rounder all along?

It can be seen in one playing professional hockey at 18 and the other at 22.

or the guy that left as an 18 year old to play Hockey in a foreign Country on North American ice vs the guy that didn't want to leave his comfort zone and is only now as a 21 year old leaving the Country he was born in?

 

[r0bert8841]

What people? How many people? I can say "people" said just about anything om here and I would be technically correct. But there were only a handful of them, and the vast majority were warning to temper expectations for both him and Tatar going forward. Again it was only the extreme few that argued up and down that a rebuild was not in order that banked on Nyquist and Tatar would turn into stars when the rest of us were like no hold up these guys are complimentary pieces on championship rosters.

If by a few extreme few, you mean the Illitches, Holland, and all of the Detroit media that was preaching rebuilding on the fly. People only started doubted rebuilding on the fly after Datsyuk left at the end of 15-16 season. Was it going to be Nyquist and Tatar that saves us ? Or was it going to be Larkin and Mantha? That wasn't as clear. But there was alot of trust that things would work out. At least thats how I remember things.