Detroit and the Lottery

[LeafsNation75]

Maybe they chose Minnesota because Holland was interested in Suter only.

Even if Suter was the Red Wings primary target and according to this they offered him 13 years and $90 million, Ken Holland claimed they made a similar offer to Parise.

Red Wings believe they did all they could to land prized free agents Ryan Suter and Zach Parise

The Red Wings offered Suter, their primary target, a 13-year deal for $90 million. Holland said they made Parise a similar offer.

 

[Pyromaniac]

Maybe they chose Minnesota because Holland was interested in Suter only.

Suter and Parise wasn't some marriage made in heaven. If Detroit was the team that they were in the 90s, Suter would have given up money to sign in Detroit knowing he would have had a great chance at winning a Cup. We could all see the downfall of the Wings coming, when you guys were tooting the horns of Frk, Pulkinen, people tried to warn you guys. You need top talent to win in this league and for that you need top picks. Its ironic that Red Wings were campaigning for this type of lottery when the belief was that "We are the Red Wings, we can never be that bad". I don't blame people for being amused or showing a lack of sympathy.

 

[Bondurant]

Suter and Parise wasn't some marriage made in heaven. If Detroit was the team that they were in the 90s, Suter would have given up money to sign in Detroit knowing he would have had a great chance at winning a Cup. We could all see the downfall of the Wings coming, when you guys were tooting the horns of Frk, Pulkinen, people tried to warn you guys. You need top talent to win in this league and for that you need top picks. Its ironic that Red Wings were campaigning for this type of lottery when the belief was that "We are the Red Wings, we can never be that bad". I don't blame people for being amused or showing a lack of sympathy.

What fans were you talking to? Here and elsewhere it was clear to most the train was running off the rails years before it finally did.

 

[Pyromaniac]

What fans were you talking to? Here and elsewhere it was clear to most the train was running off the rails years before it finally did.

I would say if we went back 4 years ago and I told Wings fans they would be struggling to win games in 2019, no one would have believed me. You guys had your fun, you have some great memories, sports being cyclical you will have to go through a down cycle. Its the nature of the business. If I had any sympathy to give, Wings fans would be low on my list. Maybe go have a conversation with a Sabres fan once in a while. They will tell you what "off the rails" really means.

 

[Sentinel]

Smart people out-think themselves. They frequently overestimate how far their intelligence can take them. They also underestimate those who have less intellect than them and that's how they end up going down. Winners are the ones who have great energy and persistence. You might think you are insulting me but I take that as a compliment.

"In Praise of Folly"

 

[Bondurant]

I would say if we went back 4 years ago and I told Wings fans they would be struggling to win games in 2019, no one would have believed me. You guys had your fun, you have some great memories, sports being cyclical you will have to go through a down cycle. Its the nature of the business. If I had any sympathy to give, Wings fans would be low on my list. Maybe go have a conversation with a Sabres fan once in a while. They will tell you what "off the rails" really means.

You have never spent much time in the Wings forum or talking with Wings fans I take it.

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

They didn’t have a great chance at #1 percentage-wise, but falling out of that top 3 has gotta sting.

You’re right, they didn’t, but they sure as hell should’ve had a better chance than the “team to be determined later.” That’s what makes this whole thing ridiculous.

 

[PullHard]

I would say if we went back 4 years ago and I told Wings fans they would be struggling to win games in 2019, no one would have believed me. You guys had your fun, you have some great memories, sports being cyclical you will have to go through a down cycle. Its the nature of the business. If I had any sympathy to give, Wings fans would be low on my list. Maybe go have a conversation with a Sabres fan once in a while. They will tell you what "off the rails" really means.

The tear-down rebuild notion in Detroit fandom goes as far back as your join date when Lidstrom called it quits. Of course it wasn't every DRW poster on this site saying they should go that route, but it was definitely a large chunk of the Detroit board's discourse coming up on a decade now.

 

[grapes55]

I think the issue of tanking is getting really overblown, even if the tanking team gets first overall they're still going to be a terrible team 99% of the time. For Buffalo and Arizona, it hasn't worked out at all and even when Crosby and Lemieux first started out the penguins were crap

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Suter and Parise wasn't some marriage made in heaven. If Detroit was the team that they were in the 90s, Suter would have given up money to sign in Detroit knowing he would have had a great chance at winning a Cup. We could all see the downfall of the Wings coming, when you guys were tooting the horns of Frk, Pulkinen, people tried to warn you guys. You need top talent to win in this league and for that you need top picks. Its ironic that Red Wings were campaigning for this type of lottery when the belief was that "We are the Red Wings, we can never be that bad". I don't blame people for being amused or showing a lack of sympathy.

Yeah, no... Suter wanted to play with Parise. Detroit in the lockout shortened season with Suter on their blueline? They probably go on and win the f***ing Cup. They damn near knocked off Chicago with a weak D core. You add a Norris level defender to replace the Nick Lidstrom hole in the roster.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I just worry about myself and my own progress and priorities and leave the rest to fate. I can't speak for anyone else but it works great for me, I am the most even-keeled person I know. The key is to not feel. As a consequence I more likely to be swayed by logic rather than emotion, and reasoning rather than feelings. Empathy is easily the most inauthentic of emotions. You can't put yourself in another man's shoes, so why try? Many people have complimented me on my mental fortitude, which is off the charts. I realize this may sound conceited but it is just the truth spoken plainly.


Please read through the posts in this thread. I have already admitted I am not a Penguins fan. I just believe Pittsburgh would be an ideal destination for Lafreniere. If the Red Wings were such a great franchise, there wouldn't be so many people complaining about the product that they put out onto the ice this season. Red Wings fans would not be dominating the discussion about the 'state of the lottery' and whining about the Penguins having a shot at an elite talent.

[MOD]

Pittsburgh would be an ideal destination for Lafreniere because he's a very top end player and even good teams like top end players added to their roster.

The issue here is that we had lockout after lockout about parity and changing the rules so the best didn't remain the best. The Wings got kicked in the dick by the 2005 lockout because they had an owner willing to spend money and could easily buy Cups. Ok, it was an unfair situation. They rectified that and maintained their team by being one of the groups that came up with the backdiving contracts with less money due in the later years. League accepted those deals as is without saying "hey, it looks like you're circumventing the rule". Then 2012 happens and they retroactively apply the rule to all the contracts that they had previously approved (several that were three or four years prior to the lockout and ruling, so "well, they should have known something was coming" is a little weak of a complaint). So okay, now Detroit has a few long term contracts that they literally can't move without packaging an asset with them. Whereas a guy like Henrik Zetterberg would have been an amazing piece to deal to kickstart a rebuild if he was okay with it, the Wings had his broken body on the roster and if he straight up retired, they'd have several years of dead money. The Wings dug their own grave by giving bad contracts to mediocre players. However, the league gave them a huge headstart on that by designing rules to mess up what big clubs did for years.

 

[Stickpucker]

They didn't choose to have Mantha get injured tangling with Muzzin or DeKeyser doing DeKeyser things. They didn't plan on Jimmy Howard being worse than a literal zamboni driver in net. The Wings tried to win games this year. They just had no damn talent. They didn't tank, they were just that damn bad.

Fans of other teams have seen this over the last 30 years. Just not DRW fans.

Most teams suck a while before they can rise and have to wait for other teams stars to get old to rise.

Crosby, Malkin, OV, Backstrom, Thornton, Marleu, etc carried their teams across the league for 10+ years and other teams just have to deal with it.

McDavid and Drai can do the same thing for 15+ years and the west will have to deal with it or have to get lucky themselves.

It's crowded down here DRW fans. You may wanna sit tight. As a metro fan I just hope the Pens and Caps only have a couple years left so other teams can rise.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Why is everyone blaming Edmonton?

We sucked because 2 of our 1st overall picks were Yakupov and RNH. Not exactly the kinds of players to pull us out of the depths. Not every draft year is the same.

Then you idiots demanded we change the rules preventing worst teams from being guaranteed 1st. We finished 25th... and that's how we ended up with McDavid.


We werent last place every year.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Also.. should also note.

Being a competetive bubble team sucks too.

I love Oilers, who were mediocre/first round fodder for over a decade. Sorta where my 2nd team the Habs are now.

We could never get elite talent during the Smyth/Hemsky/Horcoff years because we weren't bad enough. We would draft 10-14 most years, and that sucked too.

All I can say now, is keep this system for 10 years before judging it. Rebalance it if you have to.

You won't get a sense of the law of averages if you tinker with it every year.

 

[SuperScript29]

It's frustrating as a Detroit fan, but I'm not annoyed because we dropped to 4th, I'm annoyed because the 1st overall can potentially go to a good team. It will be absurd if a team like Edmonton, Toronto, Colorado, or Pittsburgh get the 1st overall.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

The draft lottery is fine.
The issue this year is the play-in format that allows contenders to miss the playoffs and possibly win the lottery.

 

[Pyromaniac]

[MOD]

Pittsburgh would be an ideal destination for Lafreniere because he's a very top end player and even good teams like top end players added to their roster.

You have your way or living life. I have mine. From your chosen verbiage you give me the impression that you are offended by the sentiments I have expressed in this thread whereas I am just dispassionately telling you that you are flat out wrong.

The issue here is that we had lockout after lockout about parity and changing the rules so the best didn't remain the best. The Wings got kicked in the dick by the 2005 lockout because they had an owner willing to spend money and could easily buy Cups. Ok, it was an unfair situation.

Cups (plural) cannot be bought, because before you get to spend the money on talent you need to acquire talent first. The Rangers/Leafs were splurging big money on aging stars and it didn't buy them much. Contrast that to the Avs, Wings and Devils who had organically acquired their talent. Regardless the lockout was to curb spending and create a more level playing field for everyone to compete in. You really shouldn't have a complaint over that. Eventually the Wings core was going to get old and retire. I don't think anyone wants to go back to a league where Leafs/Rangers spends 150M+ on their rosters.

They rectified that and maintained their team by being one of the groups that came up with the backdiving contracts with less money due in the later years. League accepted those deals as is without saying "hey, it looks like you're circumventing the rule". Then 2012 happens and they retroactively apply the rule to all the contracts that they had previously approved (several that were three or four years prior to the lockout and ruling, so "well, they should have known something was coming" is a little weak of a complaint). So okay, now Detroit has a few long term contracts that they literally can't move without packaging an asset with them. Whereas a guy like Henrik Zetterberg would have been an amazing piece to deal to kickstart a rebuild if he was okay with it, the Wings had his broken body on the roster and if he straight up retired, they'd have several years of dead money. The Wings dug their own grave by giving bad contracts to mediocre players. However, the league gave them a huge headstart on that by designing rules to mess up what big clubs did for years.

The Wings exploited a loophole. Back-diving contracts were straight up cap circumvention, the Red Wings benefited from them for years, not nearly as much as the Hawks but still enough to make a difference. How was what the Red Wings did fair to small market teams? Teams like the Predators, Sens, Canes, Sabres lost out on some really good talent because they were adhering to the rules. This post just reeks of O6 entitlement, the Wings aren't owed anything because of their storied history. Every team is just as limited by the rules as the Red Wings, and teams have gotten worse punishment for cap circumvention than the Red Wings, the Devils basically lost a 1st due to the Kovalchuk contract + Lou drafting Matteau. Vancouver has a 3M cap penalty for the next three years because of the Luongo contract.

 

[frivolousz21]

Stinks for new fans.

Long time fans had Lidstrom, Yzerman, Fedorov, Datsyuk & 4 cups.

Between 01-04 the Wings had Brendan Shannahan finish 1st, 2nd, 2nd...

And Brett Hull finish 3rd, 3rd, and 3rd on the wings in points.


May the wings have another 20 years of suffering.

Also Mike Keanen can rot in hell.

 

[412 Others]

This is tremendous news. If the Pens fall to the Habs it would be great to see them jump into that #1 spot. Penguin fans lost a few good years of Sid's prime so I think landing Lafreniere would make us whole. These are tough times for humanity. The thought of the Pens getting this pick is something we can all rally behind.

 

[rojac]

The draft lottery is fine.
The issue this year is the play-in format that allows contenders to miss the playoffs and possibly win the lottery.

Every year, people on these boards talk about how just making the playoffs doesn’t’ turn make a team a contender. Now, suddenly, a team that doesn’t even make it to the actual 1st round of the playoffs is a contender. Don’t ever change HFBoards.

 

[UK Canuck]

Every year, people on these boards talk about how just making the playoffs doesn’t’ turn make a team a contender. Now, suddenly, a team that doesn’t even make it to the actual 1st round of the playoffs is a contender. Don’t ever change HFBoards.

exactly, if a team misses the playoffs they are literally by definition not contenders

 

[HabsQC]

Must hurt when it's your team but I think the lottery's fine. I really don't think the last place team should systematically be given the first pick. Don't think it's rigged either

 

[nbwingsfan]

My age is irrelevant and so was your point. I was talking about the current state of affairs, Pittsburgh currently is a model franchise. Ottawa and Detroit are just not on their level, and it starts at the top with Mario and filters down.

You do know that the Penguins franchise has almost gone bankrupt and folded/relocated twice, right?

 

[nbwingsfan]

You have your way or living life. I have mine. From your chosen verbiage you give me the impression that you are offended by the sentiments I have expressed in this thread whereas I am just dispassionately telling you that you are flat out wrong.

Cups (plural) cannot be bought, because before you get to spend the money on talent you need to acquire talent first. The Rangers/Leafs were splurging big money on aging stars and it didn't buy them much. Contrast that to the Avs, Wings and Devils who had organically acquired their talent. Regardless the lockout was to curb spending and create a more level playing field for everyone to compete in. You really shouldn't have a complaint over that. Eventually the Wings core was going to get old and retire. I don't think anyone wants to go back to a league where Leafs/Rangers spends 150M+ on their rosters.


The Wings exploited a loophole. Back-diving contracts were straight up cap circumvention, the Red Wings benefited from them for years, not nearly as much as the Hawks but still enough to make a difference. How was what the Red Wings did fair to small market teams? Teams like the Predators, Sens, Canes, Sabres lost out on some really good talent because they were adhering to the rules. This post just reeks of O6 entitlement, the Wings aren't owed anything because of their storied history. Every team is just as limited by the rules as the Red Wings, and teams have gotten worse punishment for cap circumvention than the Red Wings, the Devils basically lost a 1st due to the Kovalchuk contract + Lou drafting Matteau. Vancouver has a 3M cap penalty for the next three years because of the Luongo contract.

Your entirely theory seems to stem on your belief that the higher in the standings you are, the better of a Franchise you are.

Puttsburgh has been good because they tanked at the time and have had two top 5 players the last decade +.

Would you say that a franchise like NYI or Carolina are better franchises than Chicago and L.A. ? Because that is flat out wrong.

 

[Pyromaniac]

You do know that the Penguins franchise has almost gone bankrupt and folded/relocated twice, right?

Had*

15 years ago Nashville wasn't the market it is today and the same can be said about Pittsburgh. Times change, its Detroit's turn to be a dumpster fire of an organization. How else can you possibly describe an organization that has a 17 win season?