Post-Game Talk: Detroit 3 Vancouver 2, OT - We got a point! But still lost...

[y2kcanucks]

Just because it's difficult to do doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to do it. Taking some low percentage shots from the outside (Virtanen) and getting shoved off the puck endlessly (Baertschi) doesn't impress me. Even if they outshot their opposition.

Again, most of the blame falls on Willie but I don't think 'the kids' should be blame free here.

Can't get into any rhythm when you're not playing for large chunks of the game. I would say 99% of the blame should fall on Willie. If they were getting 11 minutes per game and were playing like this then your point would be valid. But when they are barely being played you can't draw any conclusions on their play.

 

[Oliewud]

has anyone actually thought that maybe, just MAYBE virtanen and mccann have already made the team and willie is developing them with that in mind?

 

[WTG]

has anyone actually thought that maybe, just MAYBE virtanen and mccann have already made the team and willie is developing them with that in mind?

Could very well be possible.

Still don't agree with the way they are developing them. Giving rookies piss poor icetime doesn't seem like the best way to develop a prospect.

 

[VanJack]

has anyone actually thought that maybe, just MAYBE virtanen and mccann have already made the team and willie is developing them with that in mind?

Sorry, but the only way both Virtanen and McCann stay on this team after their nine games are up, is if the orders come from above...along with Hutton, Baertschi and Horvat that would be five guys under the age of 23....Willie would have a heart attack before the season was over.

 

[Street Hawk]

Sorry, but the only way both Virtanen and McCann stay on this team after their nine games are up, is if the orders come from above...along with Hutton, Baertschi and Horvat that would be five guys under the age of 23....Willie would have a heart attack before the season was over.

Would it get any better for Willie D next season when Gaunce and Shinkaruk (hopefully) crack the roster after 2 seasons in the AHL? Guanaco would be 22 and Shinkaruk turning 22 when the season starts.

If WD is expecting to replace Vrbata, Hamhuis, and Prust's $12 million of cap space with veterans, I think he's in for a big surprise. Canucks would look for help on the backend, but not likely to add vets up front.

 

[WTG]

Sorry, but the only way both Virtanen and McCann stay on this team after their nine games are up, is if the orders come from above...along with Hutton, Baertschi and Horvat that would be five guys under the age of 23....Willie would have a heart attack before the season was over.

Wouldn't be the first time this management forced a rookie into the lineup.

Benning forced WD to play Horvat. Which I thought was a good move by Benning.

 

[Peen]

Wouldn't be the first time this management forced a rookie into the lineup.

Benning forced WD to play Horvat. Which I thought was a good move by Benning.

Horvat didn't make the stupid mistakes McCann and Virtanen are prone to

But as I've said - McCann makes good plays to go along with his bad mistakes, and is up to the pace of the game, while Virtanen still struggles adjusting to the pace of the game.

 

[Ozone]

As I said a few games back: WD is playing not to lose, instead of playing to win - and we have seen the results, on many levels.
Veterans showing fatigue in the third. Young guns, far too 'gun shy' to do anything substantive with ridiculously low minutes, and a incredibly hot (and incredibly frustrated) goalie hung out to dry.

WD and management need to seriously have a talk. Is there no plan?

WD seems to be passive aggressively sending a message to management on his 'young gun' take, and it certainly seems less than promising.

Has the young gun line looked good in the regular season? No.
Have they been shown anything to build their confidence, or given any meaningful minutes to actually get into the game and find confidence? Arguably, the same answer.

Adding to the list of articles lately touching on this subject (and the 'holstering' of the young guns' issue) this is a great article:

No matter what people or general managers want, National Hockey League coaches are not in the player-development business. They are in the winning-games business. But right now, Willie Desjardins is failing at both.

At the risk of suggesting a simple solution to a complex issue, here is one problem: Using only three forward lines late in games, Desjardins’ team in October doesn’t have the same energy or depth as last year’s reliable team. Now, the Canucks don’t have the confidence of last year’s team, either.

Former Canuck coach John Tortorella was universally criticized for overplaying his top forwards two years ago. Daniel and Henrik Sedin played more than they ever had, wore down, broke down, and endured seasons so offensively unproductive these campaigns are viewed as anomalies, outliers.

...

But single-digit ice times for young players isn’t going to help them develop. And in the case of Baertschi and Virtanen, fancy possession stats indicate they are not hurting the Canucks when they do play.

The bottom line is Desjardins is trying to win games. The stark reality is that even leaning heavily on their experienced players, the Canucks keep blowing them.
http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/iain+macintyre+frustration+mounts+over+canucks+blown+leads/11466938/story.html
http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/...blown+leads/11466938/story.html#ixzz3peWbWiwe

Someone needs to be held accountable, and someone needs to provide a realistic direction for this organization - before our arena becomes more barren than a southern florida nhl team after a zombie convention during hurricane season.

 

[WTG]

Horvat didn't make the stupid mistakes McCann and Virtanen are prone to

But as I've said - McCann makes good plays to go along with his bad mistakes, and is up to the pace of the game, while Virtanen still struggles adjusting to the pace of the game.

That 4th line was constantly hemmed into their own zone. Horvat made plenty of mistakes. Bo was more defensively polished than McCann and Virtanen.

But I'd argue that McCann and Virtanen are both more offensively polished than Horvat was.

I remember games where Horvat just looked lost in the neutral zone and offensive zone.



Also, before you give me **** about saying Virtanen's offensive game being more polished than Horvat's at the time I'll provide some evidence.

It took Horvat till December the 9th before reaching 9 shots (13 games). Virtanen already has 9 shots through 5 games, while getting much less ice time.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Sorry, but the only way both Virtanen and McCann stay on this team after their nine games are up, is if the orders come from above...along with Hutton, Baertschi and Horvat that would be five guys under the age of 23....Willie would have a heart attack before the season was over.

A lot of teams have five guys under the age of 23. How come it's such a bad thing for us?

 

[WTG]

A lot of teams have five guys under the age of 23. How come it's such a bad thing for us?

Even with Virtanen and McCann up with the team our forward group only averages 27.5 yrsold.

We aren't a "young" team even if we have the rookies up.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Even with Virtanen and McCann up with the team our forward group only averages 27.5 yrsold.

We aren't a "young" team even if we have the rookies up.

Not at all. Like I said in the offseason over and over again, there is no youth movement. This is very much a veteran team, with a veteran core group and this year won't be any different. Look at our top 6:

Sedin-Sedin-Vrbata
Burrows-Sutter-Hansen

Sutter and Hansen are the only guys under the age of 30, and Hansen will be 30 before the end of the season.

 

[WTG]

Not at all. Like I said in the offseason over and over again, there is no youth movement. This is very much a veteran team, with a veteran core group and this year won't be any different. Look at our top 6:

Sedin-Sedin-Vrbata
Burrows-Sutter-Hansen

Sutter and Hansen are the only guys under the age of 30, and Hansen will be 30 before the end of the season.

Yup, basically.

I guess people are so used to having a veteran team they don't know what it's like to have a young ones.

This team needs a injection of youth. It needs it quick.


Look at the Jets for example, their top 6 averages is 25.5 years old. Their entire forward group averages 25 years old.

Meanwhile our top 6 averages 32 years old?!?!?! Even with Virtanen AND McCann in the lineup our forward group still average 28 years old. We are a vet team. Taking away Virtanen and McCann and putting them in juniors just makes us even older. On top of that we still probably won't make the playoffs. We are basically like Calgary was before they rebuilt. Old and stale.

 

[Oliewud]

I think that might be exactly why virtanen and mccann have already made the team because benning thinks they are insulated by a ton of vets.

 

[Ozone]

Yup, basically.

I guess people are so used to having a veteran team they don't know what it's like to have a young ones.

This team needs a injection of youth. It needs it quick.


Look at the Jets for example, their top 6 averages is 25.5 years old. Their entire forward group averages 25 years old.

Meanwhile our top 6 averages 32 years old?!?!?! Even with Virtanen AND McCann in the lineup our forward group still average 28 years old. We are a vet team. Taking away Virtanen and McCann and putting them in juniors just makes us even older. On top of that we still probably won't make the playoffs. We are basically like Calgary was before they rebuilt. Old and stale.

Continuing, contracts and Vets are increasingly becoming an issue.

Unfortunately, and as much as I love them, the Sedins are now caught in NHL purgatory; somewhere between the third gear and fourth gear of regular season play.

That's where we find the Twins, and that's where they stay.


Unfortunately, playoffs take place in fifth gear...

 

[realist99]

Unfortunately for Virtanen, the ideal spot for him in the lineup is being held by Dorsett. The kid can play at this level, but he needs to learn to walk before he runs.

That means a simple game. Skate, forecheck, hit and bring a ton of energy. 10-11 minutes a game. He is big enough and can skate well enough to do this. Any offense produced is gravy.

Asking for more ( IE 2nd line) will lead to disaster. More pressure and responsibility will lead to mistakes ....which will lead to reduced ice time.....and then to loss of confidence.

 

[Verviticus]

Yup, basically.

I guess people are so used to having a veteran team they don't know what it's like to have a young ones.

This team needs a injection of youth. It needs it quick.


Look at the Jets for example, their top 6 averages is 25.5 years old. Their entire forward group averages 25 years old.

Meanwhile our top 6 averages 32 years old?!?!?! Even with Virtanen AND McCann in the lineup our forward group still average 28 years old. We are a vet team. Taking away Virtanen and McCann and putting them in juniors just makes us even older. On top of that we still probably won't make the playoffs. We are basically like Calgary was before they rebuilt. Old and stale.

this is ridiculous though. nobody in the Old Man Group other than bieksa and burr showed any signs of major deterioration. its not the ****ing core thats stale, its the perpetually ****** support staff and overpaid garbage. it always has been, and it always will be

age isnt inherently bad. fundamentally, age means nothing. its only value is in assigning a predicative best before date that is sometimes early, sometimes late. an old core that dominates play is not a bad thing. i dont know why people keep arguing like it is

we could have had a competitive team with an old group, but benning ****ed it. now we just have a sad mess. its depressing on a level i cant describe that his profound bullsht incompetence is causing people to turn on this franchise's best players because hes supporting them with derek dorsett, luca sbisa and ryan miller

 

[WTG]

this is ridiculous though. nobody in the Old Man Group other than bieksa and burr showed any signs of major deterioration. its not the ****ing core thats stale, its the perpetually ****** support staff and overpaid garbage. it always has been, and it always will be

age isnt inherently bad. fundamentally, age means nothing. its only value is in assigning a predicative best before date that is sometimes early, sometimes late. an old core that dominates play is not a bad thing. i dont know why people keep arguing like it is

we could have had a competitive team with an old group, but benning ****ed it. now we just have a sad mess. its depressing on a level i cant describe that his profound bullsht incompetence is causing people to turn on this franchise's best players because hes supporting them with derek dorsett, luca sbisa and ryan miller

Since this is going off topic here is my response.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=108568333#post108568333

 

[arsmaster*]

Reading people's thoughts on here is a good time.

It's always interesting to see "playing excellent" and "looks like a playoff team" when the team has lost 5 out of 8.

 

[Verviticus]

Reading people's thoughts on here is a good time.

It's always interesting to see "playing excellent" and "looks like a playoff team" when the team has lost 5 out of 8.

i wonder if those statements came from the same people that were willing to overlook last year's anemic play + winning 80% of our 1 goal games

Results Are All That Matter

 

[tRaDiNgYo]

this is ridiculous though. nobody in the Old Man Group other than bieksa and burr showed any signs of major deterioration. its not the ****ing core thats stale, its the perpetually ****** support staff and overpaid garbage. it always has been, and it always will be

age isnt inherently bad. fundamentally, age means nothing. its only value is in assigning a predicative best before date that is sometimes early, sometimes late. an old core that dominates play is not a bad thing. i dont know why people keep arguing like it is

we could have had a competitive team with an old group, but benning ****ed it. now we just have a sad mess. its depressing on a level i cant describe that his profound bullsht incompetence is causing people to turn on this franchise's best players because hes supporting them with derek dorsett, luca sbisa and ryan miller

I don't see a tired burrows at all. I'm surprised at how burrows looks and plays just like he did 5 years ago. He's creating chances out there.

 

[CanaFan]

this is ridiculous though. nobody in the Old Man Group other than bieksa and burr showed any signs of major deterioration. its not the ****ing core thats stale, its the perpetually ****** support staff and overpaid garbage. it always has been, and it always will be

age isnt inherently bad. fundamentally, age means nothing. its only value is in assigning a predicative best before date that is sometimes early, sometimes late. an old core that dominates play is not a bad thing. i dont know why people keep arguing like it is

we could have had a competitive team with an old group, but benning ****ed it. now we just have a sad mess. its depressing on a level i cant describe that his profound bullsht incompetence is causing people to turn on this franchise's best players because hes supporting them with derek dorsett, luca sbisa and ryan miller

Maybe you can't pin it all on age but let's be honest here, the team is basically the Sedins and Tanev-Edler plus a bunch of very average-to-below-average players. This team needs to get better in so many areas right now, and that is exacerbated by the age of a lot of the pieces. So while getting younger isn't necessarily the only way to do this (replace average pieces with better pieces), in a zero-sum asset world like the NHL, it is certainly the most common. Unless we can magically trade Higgins for Forsberg or Gaudreau it makes more sense to trade Higgins for a draft pick that *maybe* can become that type of player one day.

TL;Dr Getting younger is really just a means to an end (getting better) that often gets confused with the end itself.

 

[MS]

Reading people's thoughts on here is a good time.

It's always interesting to see "playing excellent" and "looks like a playoff team" when the team has lost 5 out of 8.

No kidding.

After our quick start, we're already down to 10th in the conference.

We've been working hard and decent system-wise, but there is a total lack of real class and ability on this team right now. This is not a good team.

 

[Rex Banner]

I'd be more concerned if we weren't losing all these games by 1 goal. It's not like we're getting blown out every night.

 

[WinterEmpire]

I'd be more concerned if we weren't losing all these games by 1 goal. It's not like we're getting blown out every night.

Blowing multiple 3rd period leads is just as bad, it just shows a different type of deficiency