DeKeyser

[Zetterberg4Captain]

mmmm I can see a solid #2 dman as DD's career height

#1 dman have to be able to play 25 mins a night in all three zones and have to be able to quaterback the pp and put up 40 plus pts consistently

 

[Retire91]

We are so fortunate to have signed him, I can't imagine the shape the D would be in these days without him.

 

[14ari13]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=762781&navid=nhl:topheads

The second pair, Dan DeKyser and Kyle Quincey, was the most consistent for much of the season. DeKeyser, in his second full season, is steadily improving and may ultimately have the best career of any of the Red Wings defensemen. He's a great skater, is always in the right position defensively, makes a great first pass, and is getting better offensively.Quincey brings a stay-at-home, physical, blue-collar element.

Hmmmm.

 

[Frk It]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=762781&navid=nhl:topheads



Hmmmm.

If they're including Kronwall in that, I would very strongly disagree.

I am starting to think Dekeyser will be better than the prospects in GR though. Unfortunately, I don't think that's a good thing for us overall. I hope some of these kids can progress and improve like Dekeyser has.

 

[14ari13]

If they're including Kronwall in that, I would very strongly disagree.

I am starting to think Dekeyser will be better than the prospects in GR though. Unfortunately, I don't think that's a good thing for us overall. I hope some of these kids can progress and improve like Dekeyser has.

I do not know if they do, but I do.

 

[Frk It]

I do not know if they do, but I do.

Trust me, we know.

 

[14ari13]

Trust me, we know.

At the same age Kronwall had 9 and 22 points. DeKeyser has already passed that.

The main reason why Kronwall did not become as good as hoped for is because of the injuries early in his career.
DeKeyser plays a smart game. I have not been excited about a Wings player since Datsyuk.

 

[Run the Jewels]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=762781&navid=nhl:topheads



Hmmmm.

Unpossible, I read on these very forums that DeKeyser is the most overrated player in a Red Wings uniform! Seriously though, I do think he's got the potential to be our best d-man, even better than Kronner who is OK as a #1 but would be better suited as a #2. He was clearly at his best when we had Lids and Rafalski and he was on the 2nd pair with Brad Stuart.

 

[Frk It]

Unpossible, I read on these very forums that DeKeyser is the most overrated player in a Red Wings uniform! Seriously though, I do think he's got the potential to be our best d-man, even better than Kronner who is OK as a #1 but would be better suited as a #2. He was clearly at his best when we had Lids and Rafalski and he was on the 2nd pair with Brad Stuart.

But where would Dekeyser be on that same defense? 3rd pair?

Unfair to use that defense as where Kronwall should slot, because we won't have one as good for a very, very long time.

 

[Frk It]

At the same age Kronwall had 9 and 22 points. DeKeyser has already passed that.

The main reason why Kronwall did not become as good as hoped for is because of the injuries early in his career.
DeKeyser plays a smart game. I have not been excited about a Wings player since Datsyuk.

But Kronwall was a 1st round pick, who was considered to have tons of potential and offensive ability. And the defense was way better and harder to crack with a big role when Kronwall was his age. Dekeyser is benefiting from playing on the worst Detroit defense I can remember, total opposite situation from Kronwall.

For me this is equivalent to talking about Nyquist becoming better than Datsyuk. Sure, It's not impossible, but it's still a really huge reach. Does seem like Kronwall is being undervalued big time too. Just wish we could appreciate Dekeyser for what he is without getting all hyperbolic and overzealous.

 

[SoupGuru]

But Kronwall was a 1st round pick, who was considered to have tons of potential and offensive ability. And the defense was way better and harder to crack with a big role when Kronwall was his age. Dekeyser is benefiting from playing on the worst Detroit defense I can remember, total opposite situation from Kronwall.

For me this is equivalent to talking about Nyquist becoming better than Datsyuk. Sure, It's not impossible, but it's still a really huge reach. Does seem like Kronwall is being undervalued big time too. Just wish we could appreciate Dekeyser for what he is without getting all hyperbolic and overzealous.

Let me see if I understand your argument.

Back when we had Lidstrom and Rafalski and our defense was much better, Kronwall had to struggle against much easier competition while the big guns played against the other team's top lines.

As opposed to DeKeyser who is playing on a much worse defense and has it easy shouldering all those big minutes against top talent.

I'm not sure I follow.

DeKeyser is playing bigger minutes earlier in his career than Kronwall did. And the fact that DeKeyser is handling them very well bodes well for his future.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Let me see if I understand your argument.

Back when we had Lidstrom and Rafalski and our defense was much better, Kronwall had to struggle against much easier competition while the big guns played against the other team's top lines.

As opposed to DeKeyser who is playing on a much worse defense and has it easy shouldering all those big minutes against top talent.

I'm not sure I follow.

DeKeyser is playing bigger minutes earlier in his career than Kronwall did. And the fact that DeKeyser is handling them very well bodes well for his future.

I don't think you understand his point, since both guy's played on second pairings.

We will see I like DeKeyser. Nice progression in his game this year, he continues to get better and will hopefully one day be that absolute anchor on the second pairing while we go for a cup. I doubt he ever passes Kronwall in terms of the player he becomes and I think we will be in big trouble if he is our top pairing D-man and #1. I hope I am wrong, but the way I see it if DK is your #3 or #4 chances are we have a good team. Hopefully we can acquire the talent to make that a reality or DeKeyser will continue on to knock his development out of the park.

 

[Frk It]

Let me see if I understand your argument.

Back when we had Lidstrom and Rafalski and our defense was much better, Kronwall had to struggle against much easier competition while the big guns played against the other team's top lines.

As opposed to DeKeyser who is playing on a much worse defense and has it easy shouldering all those big minutes against top talent.

I'm not sure I follow.

DeKeyser is playing bigger minutes earlier in his career than Kronwall did. And the fact that DeKeyser is handling them very well bodes well for his future.

All of this I agree with.

The poster I quoted was attempting to draw a comparison in just points between Kronwall and Dekeyser at a similar age, to try and suggest Dekeyser will be better overall.

I was pointing out it was a lot harder for Kronwall to earn a spot and role on the team, which resulted in the points coming later. Dekeyser would have faced the same obstacle had he been a prospect at that time. He may have not even been able to crack that roster. On the flip side Dekeyser has a much easier team carving out a role earlier on, because our defense is comparably terrible to the defense Kronwall played on. Tha means more minutes and production earlier, but it doesn't mean he will be better in the long run. Just like Nyquist and Tatar are producing similar or better than Dats and Z at the same age, but it's doubtful either will be better.

I commend Dekeyser for stepping up to the plate and bailing out Holland, who has done a piss-poor job with this defense. But I'm also banking/hoping on some reinforcements being brought in that will keep Dekeyser from being the type of player some of you talk about.

 

[SoupGuru]

OK, DeKeyser has played 156 NHL games. Let's see how they compare to Kronwall's first 156 games, shall we?

DeKeyser:
6 goals
49 assists
55 points
20.66 mins/gm

Kronwall:
6 goals
53 assists
59 points
19:15 mins/gm

Not too shabby. Now let me blow your mind.

On the power play:

DeKeyser:
10 points
198.9 mins

Kronwall:
12 points
379.4 mins

DeKeyser has been significantly more productive on the power plays than Kronwall was at that point in his career. If DeKeyser had continued to get PP time, there's no doubt in my mind that he'd have more points than Kronwall did at 156 games.

I just think DeKeyser is criminally underrated around here for some reason. He plays hard minutes, plays outstanding defense, outproduces every other defender at even strength by a large margin, and maintains the best plus/minus on the team. I don't know what more he has to do to convince people that he's legit.

 

[iDangleDangle]

OK, DeKeyser has played 156 NHL games. Let's see how they compare to Kronwall's first 156 games, shall we?

DeKeyser:
6 goals
49 assists
55 points
20.66 mins/gm

Kronwall:
6 goals
53 assists
59 points
19:15 mins/gm

Not too shabby. Now let me blow your mind.

On the power play:

DeKeyser:
10 points
198.9 mins

Kronwall:
12 points
379.4 mins

DeKeyser has been significantly more productive on the power plays than Kronwall was at that point in his career. If DeKeyser had continued to get PP time, there's no doubt in my mind that he'd have more points than Kronwall did at 156 games.

I just think DeKeyser is criminally underrated around here for some reason. He plays hard minutes, plays outstanding defense, outproduces every other defender at even strength by a large margin, and maintains the best plus/minus on the team. I don't know what more he has to do to convince people that he's legit.

I don't think anyone has said DD isn't legit. He is this teams #2 D-man after only couple of seasons in the pros, a fantastic feat. Wings are lucky to have him, and I believe he will become a good complimentary piece to a 1st pairing, and a fantastic middle pairing man (which he basically already is).

But looking at numbers doesn't tell the whole story about DD's offense. I haven't seen any indicators the type of offensive instincts in DD that a legit #1 needs to have. Sure he rakes in points nicely, but I have a hunch that a bunch of them are secondary assists. DD lacks the offensive flair to truly be a teams leading d-man IMO.

And comparisons to Kronner, it's a whole different situation with them. Kronwall made his NHL debut in a stacked roster and dealt with injury issues during his first few NHL seasons, yet he managed to eclipse 50 points on his 3rd full season with guys like Lidström and Raffy ahead of him in the depth chart. Do you see DD having such a big offensive year in the near future?

 

[Frk It]

Sure he rakes in points nicely, but I have a hunch that a bunch of them are secondary assists.

14 out of 19 of his ES assists came as 2nd assists. Not really that uncommon for defenseman, but some of those were pretty fortunate.

 

[Frk It]

I just think DeKeyser is criminally underrated around here for some reason..

But he's really not... Virtually everyone on here says that he is legit. Everyone appreciates that he is on our team. Most everything I see on Dekeyser is very reasonable and also positive.

I think he's criminally overrated by 2-3 people, and they are expecting from Dekeyser what you would expect from someone who was a top 10 pick. Future #1 defenseman, better than Kronwall, etc. ??? From a kid that was undrafted? Can't we just appreciate that he's an ever-improving and rock-solid guy, without taking it to that extreme level?

If he does it, that's great. It's almost sounding like people expect it though. That's craziness to me, and I think it is unfair to him.

 

[SoupGuru]

Through their first 156 games:

DeKeyser:
A1: 17
A2: 32

Kronwall:
A1: 21
A2: 32

Even strength:

DeKeyser:
A1: 10
A2: 13

Kronwall:
A1: 14
A2: 27

Oddly enough, if you look at the current season, the defenseman with the most even strength primary assists is... Quincey? And then after him... Ericsson?

 

[SoupGuru]

But he's really not... Virtually everyone on here says that he is legit. Everyone appreciates that he is on our team. Most everything I see on Dekeyser is very reasonable and also positive.

I think he's criminally overrated by 2-3 people, and they are expecting from Dekeyser what you would expect from someone who was a top 10 pick. Future #1 defenseman, better than Kronwall, etc. ??? From a kid that was undrafted? Can't we just appreciate that he's an ever-improving and rock-solid guy, without taking it to that extreme level?

If he does it, that's great. It's almost sounding like people expect it though. That's craziness to me, and I think it is unfair to him.

I guess my frustration is that no one can ever explain to me why they don't see DeKeyser as a "top guy" for the Wings. You yourself think he needs something called "offensive flair". But no one can really articulate what they think DeKeyser lacks outside of vague phrases and general feelings. I think a lot of people are making assumptions about him that aren't supported by stats or facts.

 

[14ari13]

But he's really not... Virtually everyone on here says that he is legit. Everyone appreciates that he is on our team. Most everything I see on Dekeyser is very reasonable and also positive.

I think he's criminally overrated by 2-3 people, and they are expecting from Dekeyser what you would expect from someone who was a top 10 pick. Future #1 defenseman, better than Kronwall, etc. ??? From a kid that was undrafted? Can't we just appreciate that he's an ever-improving and rock-solid guy, without taking it to that extreme level?

If he does it, that's great. It's almost sounding like people expect it though. That's craziness to me, and I think it is unfair to him.

Let's remember how the things happened.
We had Smith (1st rounder, DeKeyser undrafted) and Quincey (kfq) as our 2nd pair. People complained about Quincey and therefore the nickname.
Then DeKeyser came and made Quincey look good. Wasn't it like that.
Lidstrom was a 4th rounder. Datsyuk and Z 7th.
But they became star players.
DeKeyser is smart and sees the game really well.

We Are all sometimes right and wrong. I might value DeKeyser too high, but we will see.

 

[Frozen Fiend]

I got a DeKeyser jersey for my birthday!

 

[iDangleDangle]

I guess my frustration is that no one can ever explain to me why they don't see DeKeyser as a "top guy" for the Wings. You yourself think he needs something called "offensive flair". But no one can really articulate what they think DeKeyser lacks outside of vague phrases and general feelings. I think a lot of people are making assumptions about him that aren't supported by stats or facts.

I was the one who brought up the term "offensive flair" in my last post.

I just very rarely see DD making decisions with the puck on the offensive side of game that make me go "wow, that was a nice and creative play". He isn't really that good at walking the line or blasting puck from the point either - your usual qualities of offensive d-men.

He usually opts for the safe play. Some of those decisions demonstrate his great hockey IQ (which manifests more on the defensive aspects of the game), but DD just hasn't shown that he brings anything substantial to offensive situations. especially PP. And you can't be a true #1 if you can't quarterback a PP or be a constant threat from there with your shot. He had some ample time on PP units this season, and measily 2 goals to show for it. You have quite handily left goal totals out of your stats comparisons.

DD has a good outlet pass and is certainly passable on the offensive blueline, but nothing to write home about when compared to say Kronwall or Zidlicky. He just isn't an offensive force, which again, is completely ok considering how well-rounded, smart and solid he is generally. Like I said in my earlier post, he is already a great middle pairing guy.

 

[SoupGuru]

I was the one who brought up the term "offensive flair" in my last post.

I just very rarely see DD making decisions with the puck on the offensive side of game that make me go "wow, that was a nice and creative play". He isn't really that good at walking the line or blasting puck from the point either - your usual qualities of offensive d-men.

He usually opts for the safe play. Some of those decisions demonstrate his great hockey IQ (which manifests more on the defensive aspects of the game), but DD just hasn't shown that he brings anything substantial to offensive situations. especially PP. And you can't be a true #1 if you can't quarterback a PP or be a constant threat from there with your shot. He had some ample time on PP units this season, and measily 2 goals to show for it. You have quite handily left goal totals out of your stats comparisons.

DD has a good outlet pass and is certainly passable on the offensive blueline, but nothing to write home about when compared to say Kronwall or Zidlicky. He just isn't an offensive force, which again, is completely ok considering how well-rounded, smart and solid he is generally. Like I said in my earlier post, he is already a great middle pairing guy.

OK, first 156 games, PP goals: DeKeyser: 1, Kronwall: 2.

You're missing that over their first 156 games, DeKeyser was more productive on the power play.

So again, people come in here with vague feelings and preconceptions that aren't borne out in the facts.

 

[iDangleDangle]

OK, first 156 games, PP goals: DeKeyser: 1, Kronwall: 2.

You're missing that over their first 156 games, DeKeyser was more productive on the power play.

So again, people come in here with vague feelings and preconceptions that aren't borne out in the facts.

Again, Kronners first few seasons were injury riddled with only 27, 68 and 65 games played each and played behind guys Lidström and Rafalski who were the teams go to guys in offensive sitations. And on that 65 game season he scored 7 ES goals, which is fairly impressive. And managed to eclipse 50 points on his 3rd full season (not counting his first season right after the lockout since he played only 27 games).

Nitpicking stats like that is pointless, if a defenseman (DD) scores 2 goals in a season despite seeing ample time on a PP unit he isn't an offensive catalyst or PP performer. Brett Lebda scored 6 goals in one his seasons with the Wings.

I don't why you're so adamant about proving DD to be a threat offensively. Eye test and goal totals/how he gets most of his points should tell that it just isn't his forté.

 

[SoupGuru]

Again, Kronners first few seasons were injury riddled with only 27, 68 and 65 games played each and played behind guys Lidström and Rafalski who were the teams go to guys in offensive sitations. And on that 65 game season he scored 7 ES goals, which is fairly impressive. And managed to eclipse 50 points on his 3rd full season (not counting his first season right after the lockout since he played only 27 games).

Nitpicking stats like that is pointless, if a defenseman (DD) scores 2 goals in a season despite seeing ample time on a PP unit he isn't an offensive catalyst or PP performer. Brett Lebda scored 6 goals in one his seasons with the Wings.

I don't why you're so adamant about proving DD to be a threat offensively. Eye test and goal totals/how he gets most of his points should tell that it just isn't his forté.

I'm so adamant about this because I keep saying over and over that all I get are vague feelings and preconceptions when people try to explain why they don't think DeKeyser has much of an offensive potential. And here you are again saying your notions are partially based on your eye test.

And then you accuse me of nitpicking my stats while you feel free to throw out all sorts caveats for Kronwall's stats.

I'm not trying to say DeKeyser is going to be the awesomest offensive defenseman in the world. I'm saying he's on track to be pretty good. And no one has shown me anything to think otherwise, other than vague feelings and preconceptions.