Defense Prospects - where are all the yutes?

[iceburg]

Defense remains the achilles heel for this team. While the depth at the NHL level has (arguably) improved since Sbisa and Gudbranson were regulars and Pouliot was the next great one, there is a great divide between the veterans (OEL, Myers, Hamonic, Poolman, Hunt, Schenn - average age >30) and some young guys (Hughes, Rathbone, Juolevi - average age 22) with only Hughes a lock to have a significant NHL career.

This all means that, while the team still needs to improve defense at the NHL level to go from being hopefully competitive to a bonafide contender, there is a significant need to build the defense prospect pool in order to have any kind of sustained success. And there's the rub, the current prospect pool isn't deep and, outside of Hughes and Rathbone, there are no defenders that project to be top 4.

All that said, there are a few intriguing D-prospects that could take a leap and raise their stock in the short term. Listing the DOB 2000 or younger:

Woo
Jurmo
Persson
Truscott
Myrenberg
Gabrielson
Utunen


Thread to discuss thoughts, projections, updates, highlights of these and other prospects that fall into this category.

Mods: given the interest, I thought this deserved its own thread. Please merge with prospect thread if you don't agree.

Click to read more...

 

[Siludin]

The Canucks need to ask themselves: what roles are they filling? when do they expect to need these players in the lineup? powerplay quarterback on the right side? shutdown defenseman on the left side?
When does the team anticipate the the current "older" defensemen on the team like OEL and Myers start to significantly decline and can no longer play top-4 minutes? 2 seasons? 3 seasons? Are Hughes and Rathbone going to be absorbing OEL offensive minutes, and they need to have someone play shorthanded minutes/defensive zone starts/tough matchups?
It looks to me they have these significant minutes opening up over the next few years:
- Left side shutdown/defensive/shorthanded minutes (they already have very little coverage for this - OEL is likely their best left side all-around defenseman)
- Right side offensive/powerplay minutes (Myers' current role)

If they want to fill these minutes with a player in the system, they need to really develop an existing d-man, or draft a d-man in the coming draft so they can start being ready to play NHL minutes in a few years.
Woo is the only player I can see playing NHL minutes in the next two years.
Woo plays the right side, in which there is more competition for defensively-responsible minutes (Hamonic/Poolman ahead of him for the foreseeable future), and he hasn't been an offensive d-man as a pro yet (which would be a bigger need if Myers retires)
The rest of the prospect depth on defense are total Hail Marys and shouldn't be planned around cracking the roster (or at least, the team needs some more contingency)
The NCAA free agent pool is a place the Canucks could find another gem.

edit: more clarity.

 

[M2Beezy]

Edit

 

[krutovsdonut]

clearly we need age gap dmen.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Can it get worse?

 

[M2Beezy]

clearly we need age gap dmen.

Gudbranson again?? Sbisa??? Barkowski??

 

[Luck 6]

I think for this core we are going to have to build our blue line through UFA and trades. The good news is this is something that can be done, look at our defense in 10/11 as an example:

Edler-Ehrhoff
Hamhuis-Bieksa
Ballard-Rome/Alberts/Salo/Tanev

Of that core only Bieksa and Edler were drafted by the Canucks (Tanev undrafted UFA, not a key contributor at the time), the rest were all brought in.

And today:

OEL-Hamonic
Hughes-Poolman
Rathbone-Myers
Juolevi, Schenn

Of that list we have Hughes, Rathbone, and Juolevi as our draft picks, the rest were acquired elsewhere. Realistically we're only a good piece or two on that back end from being better than our 2010/2011 group, but I do understand those pieces are hard to obtain.

In regards to the prospects, it's really difficult to gauge the ceilings on some of these guys. Defensemen take longer to develop, and their development isn't always linear. I do really hope we can make a top 4 defender out of 1 or 2 of the guys on our current prospect list.

 

[rypper]

Gudbranson again?? Sbisa??? Barkowski??

DJ Del Zotto? Philip Holm? Oscar "the grouch" Fatenberg?

 

[F A N]

The Canucks need to spend more premium picks on defenseman. That's the easiest way to acquire good NHL Dmen. Yes you are more likely to be able to find top 4 Dmen later on in the draft than top 6 forwards but you got to actually have the ability to draft NHL Dmen in later rounds every few years. Yes you can acquire a Dman through trade but we haven't been able to pull that off since the Ehrhoff trade. Before that you're looking at Jovo and Salo.

Of the prospect group OP listed, I think Rathbone is a sure-fire NHL defenseman. After him, I like Woo and Persson. Jurmo and Truscott are longer shots to me.

 

[Paulinbc]

Defense remains the achilles heel for this team. While the depth at the NHL level has (arguably) improved since Sbisa and Gudbranson were regulars and Pouliot was the next great one, there is a great divide between the veterans (OEL, Myers, Hamonic, Poolman, Hunt, Schenn - average age >30) and some young guys (Hughes, Rathbone, Juolevi - average age 22) with only Hughes a lock to have a significant NHL career.

This all means that, while the team still needs to improve defense at the NHL level to go from being hopefully competitive to a bonafide contender, there is a significant need to build the defense prospect pool in order to have any kind of sustained success. And there's the rub, the current prospect pool isn't deep and, outside of Hughes and Rathbone, there are no defenders that project to be top 4.

All that said, there are a few intriguing D-prospects that could take a leap and raise their stock in the short term. Listing the DOB 2000 or younger:

Woo
Jurmo
Persson
Truscott
Myrenberg
Gabrielson
Utunen


Thread to discuss thoughts, projections, updates, highlights of these and other prospects that fall into this category.

Mods: given the interest, I thought this deserved its own thread. Please merge with prospect thread if you don't agree.

I like Rathbone. Otherwise not much here.

 

[m9]

The Canucks need to spend more premium picks on defenseman. That's the easiest way to acquire good NHL Dmen. Yes you are more likely to be able to find top 4 Dmen later on in the draft than top 6 forwards but you got to actually have the ability to draft NHL Dmen in later rounds every few years. Yes you can acquire a Dman through trade but we haven't been able to pull that off since the Ehrhoff trade. Before that you're looking at Jovo and Salo.

Of the prospect group OP listed, I think Rathbone is a sure-fire NHL defenseman. After him, I like Woo and Persson. Jurmo and Truscott are longer shots to me.

In the last 10 drafts they've only spent 6 of their 24 premium (top 3 rounds) picks on d-men, which is definitely a little low. The real issue is that they've only had 24 premium picks over that span and they're already down a 2nd next year.

So yeah, keep your premium picks and draft d-men slightly more often with those picks.

 

[F A N]

In the last 10 drafts they've only spent 6 of their 24 premium (top 3 rounds) picks on d-men, which is definitely a little low. The real issue is that they've only had 24 premium picks over that span and they're already down a 2nd next year.

So yeah, keep your premium picks and draft d-men slightly more often with those picks.

And the Canucks have traded two first round picks for forwards (Miller + Garland). Granted the BPA at #9 this past draft would have been a forward.

 

[m9]

Rathbone seems like a good bet as of now and I think Woo has a pretty high floor who will at least be a depth NHL guy.

I don't see Juolevi having a future on this team. Ideally that extra LHD will be a defensive PK guy who can step into certain matchups or play limited 3rd pairing minutes if he has to step in. I don't see Juolevi as that guy.

Hopefully we see some flashes out of the rest of the group. It's hard to have a strong opinion on any of the rest of the group until we see them play a bit more. If someone prefers Truscott, Jurmo, Persson then I'm not going to argue at this point.

The "good" news is that their NHL D is pretty locked in for the next two seasons. Ideally you would see Woo progress to take Schenn's spot in 2022-23.

 

[iceburg]

The way I see it, in three years they will need to be replacing (at least replacing minutes for) 5 guys who expect to play prominent roles this year with only Hughes expected to have a big role beyond three years. We all hope Rathbone will be a solid top 4. We all hope Woo will at very least be a solid bottom pairing RHD.

Beyond that I'm really interest to see what Persson can do as an offensive guy on the right side. I'll be following the rest of the 21 and under group to see if anyone else stands out.

But as it is, they need to find at least 3 (two RHD and one LHD) through draft and development.

 

[VanJack]

I think some of the earlier posters nailed it.....the Canucks simply haven't invested enough higher round draft picks on d-men. Of course at the rate they've traded first, second and third round draft picks in the past few years, it becomes even more difficult to 'hit' on a d-man.

Other than Hughes and Juolevi, the Canucks haven't drafted any d-men in the first round of the Benning regime. And Woo is one of the few guys they drafted in the second round.

When you look at the Canucks prospect list, there's a lot of d-men there.....but most were drafted in rounds 3-7. The rate of success for these prospects is less than 10 percent of becoming a productive NHL player.

That's what makes Rathbone such an important player.....a fourth round draft pick who looks like a lock to be a top-four d-man eventually.

I keep remembering some posters who were clamoring for the Canucks to draft mammoth d-man Nic Hague early in the second round of 2017 instead of Kole Lind. Today Hague is a solid d-man for Vegas and Lind was plucked in the expansion draft by Seattle.

 

[MS]

Woo is a solid prospect and really shouldn't be lumped in with the rest of the incredibly fringe guys in that group.

As others have noted, when you never draft D (or Cs) you aren't going to end up with anything in your system.

 

[Bertuzzipunch]

At least next year RHD is loaded for the draft and we still have our first rnd pick (for now) lol

they have to make it a focus in the draft next season. Even if our first 2 or 3 picks are used it should be for dmen imo.

 

[iceburg]

Woo is a solid prospect and really shouldn't be lumped in with the rest of the incredibly fringe guys in that group.

As others have noted, when you never draft D (or Cs) you aren't going to end up with anything in your system.

Point taken and generally agree. The criteria were age and not yet playing a game in the NHL.

The question really is who haven't we seen in the NHL yet that could help the club based on where they are today and how they could develop over the next year (at least that's the question I had in my mind). And how that impacts decisions and drafting going forward.

 

[rypper]

At least next year RHD is loaded for the draft and we still have our first rnd pick (for now) lol

they have to make it a focus in the draft next season. Even if our first 2 or 3 picks are used it should be for dmen imo.

I would bet money that 1st rounder is good as gone.

 

[zcaptain]

I really like what Rathbones brings to the table. It is my hope he turns out as an above average player, who plays a role like a young Doug Lidster type (dating myself). But I think he is the key, to our success. Could he be moved for a young RHD? or does one of our B prospects develop into a decent RHD?

 

[iceburg]

Posted this in a wrong thread. Now it's where it belongs.

BC-bound Viktor Persson is set to make his WHL debut: CanucksArmy Prospect Rankings #13

 

[VanJack]

Posted this in a wrong thread. Now it's where it belongs.

BC-bound Viktor Persson is set to make his WHL debut: CanucksArmy Prospect Rankings #13

Obviously nobody has any idea how many of these prospects will actually pan out, and it might be a case of 'quantity' over 'quality'. But the Canucks have loaded up on d-men in the later rounds of the last couple of drafts.

Hopefully one of Persson, Jurmo, Gabrielsson,Truscott and Myrenberg works out. Then again, when was the last time a later round d-man actually worked out for the Canucks? But surely somebody has to break the jinx.

 

[bossram]

Gudbranson again?? Sbisa??? Barkowski??

Where is the next Adam Clendening or Andrey Pedan and where can we trade for them??

That said, the issue isn't that the Canucks haven't invested "high picks" or other assets in defensemen. They actually have. They (i.e. Benning) just identify the wrong ones! It's clear they can't evaluate pro defensemen.

I mean, they invested a recent 1st rounder (McCann) and a high 2nd rounder in Erik Gudbranson. That kind of package should've found them some kind of quality player. They've invested a lot of cap allocation in inefficient defensemen, yet inexplicably let go of the one player that is effective and actually fits the exact need they had (cheap, right-handed, reasonably young).

Using their 1st to draft a defenseman next draft doesn't exactly help the "competitive window". So I expect Benning will be looking to burn more draft/prospect capital to find that player.

 

[iceburg]

Obviously nobody has any idea how many of these prospects will actually pan out, and it might be a case of 'quantity' over 'quality'. But the Canucks have loaded up on d-men in the later rounds of the last couple of drafts.

Hopefully one of Persson, Jurmo, Gabrielsson,Truscott and Myrenberg works out. Then again, when was the last time a later round d-man actually worked out for the Canucks? But surely somebody has to break the jinx.

This comng year will be telling. Persson should actually be pretty dominant in the W. If not, he will have a hard time getting enough attention from the org.
Jurmo has the best chance on paper (other than Woo) but his D+1 year didn't inspire. We'll see how this year goes.
As for the others, I really have no clue.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

Our D prospects have been shit for as long as I can remember. That’s one area we never improved in. We can’t scout Dmen for shit.


Joni Jurmo. 20 GP in Liiga. -11 with 0 points
Toni Utunen 51 GP in Liiga -6 with 6 points.
Cole Candela plays in the ECHL now.
matt brassard plays in the ECHL now
Gill Breezbah is ass.


Forsling was good but we traded him for nothing.