Defense Prospects - where are all the yutes?

[Cornwallace]

Myers plays 20+ minutes a night , and plays on the PK..?..(against the other teams best players)...How is that sheltered?

As for J,Fresh's charts...I guess that Darnell Nurse, Seth Jones and Josh Morrissey must all be replacement level D men as well..?

Can you at least attempt to not be completely disingenuous and misconstrue what I say? I said he was "somewhat sheltered" which is entirely true.

He doesn't play hard minutes very often and his QoC proves that. You can play lots of minutes while still being somewhat sheltered...

Ah yes, the classic attempt to discredit a jfresh graphic by only looking at WAR and disregarding literally everything else on it. Then you following it up by comparing Myers to guys that actually played tough minutes all season... Are you really going to compare Myers to defensemen that literally at least 2x'd his QoC?

He's an offensive defensemen that's dreadful defensively. The eye test suggests that and the advanced stats back it up.

 

[MS]

Using the horribly flawed and inconsistently tracked giveaway/takeaway stats as evidence of anything at all is evidence that you're a fan that fell off the turnip truck, like, yesterday.

 

[Get North]

Using the horribly flawed and inconsistently tracked giveaway/takeaway stats as evidence of anything at all is evidence that you're a fan that fell off the turnip truck, like, yesterday.

I watch the games, don't really care about stats. Advanced stats like EV Corsi have Myers ahead and also common stats like hits, goals, points, game winning goals, etc. Him and Schmidt get paid the same, I would rather have Myers skill-set.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

I watch the games, don't really care about stats. Advanced stats like EV Corsi have Myers ahead and also common stats like hits, goals, points, game winning goals, etc. Him and Schmidt get paid the same, I would rather have Myers skill-set.

So...you think takeaways are important...but you really don't care about the stats.

You really don't seem to understand how deployment affects point totals.

 

[VanJack]

Hugo Gabrielsson is looking like an interesting prospect, at least judging from some of the pre-season tournaments in Europe. One of the few European prospects who got into 41 games last year, so Canuck scouts would have had a good look at him.

Paired most of the season with top-10 pick Simon Edvinsson, and looked the steadier guy in that pairing. Was rated a top-100 pick, but slipped to the Canucks in Round #6 (169th overall). Will be interesting to see if he can make Sweden's WJHC team this winter.

Looks a good, all-around d-man plucked later on this draft.....sooner or later they have to 'hit' on one of these d-men drafted late.

 

[Nucker101]

Hugo Gabrielsson is looking like an interesting prospect, at least judging from some of the pre-season tournaments in Europe. One of the few European prospects who got into 41 games last year, so Canuck scouts would have had a good look at him.

Paired most of the season with top-10 pick Simon Edvinsson, and looked the steadier guy in that pairing. Was rated a top-100 pick, but slipped to the Canucks in Round #6 (169th overall). Will be interesting to see if he can make Sweden's WJHC team this winter.

Looks a good, all-around d-man plucked later on this draft.....sooner or later they have to 'hit' on one of these d-men drafted late.

They did hit on a late round dman.

Gustav Forsling.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

They did hit on a late round dman.

Gustav Forsling.

Hit on Tryamkin too, imho. But of course they couldn't hang onto him.

 

[FOurteenS inCisOr]

Hit on Tryamkin too, imho. But of course they couldn't hang onto him.

Benning: “Hey there, you’re a tall glass of Smirnoff.”

Tryamkin: “wth..?” *walks away*

 

[Cornwallace]

So...you think takeaways are important...but you really don't care about the stats.

You really don't seem to understand how deployment affects point totals.

Or deployment in general...

5on5 GA
Schmidt: 44
Myers: 50

One of these players played considerably harder minutes than the other

 

[Get North]

Or deployment in general...

5on5 GA
Schmidt: 44
Myers: 50

One of these players played considerably harder minutes than the other

Those stats don't take into account if Chatfield, Benn, Juolevi or Rafferty were on the ice. Myers and Hughes our only defencemen to have games with 30+ minutes. Our defence were stretched last year even when Hamonic was healthy.

I watch the NHL playoffs. I've seen Schmidt play well in Vegas. He had a bad season in Vancouver, maybe he was babysitting Edler or he wasn't motivated coming from Vegas. There's videos of him costing us goals on YouTube with bone headed plays. Vegas' management upgraded on Schmidt after falling short in the playoffs. It was reported Nate requested a move out of Vancouver and it makes sense the way he played. He's like a TJ Brodie type. Nothing unique or great about his game.

We saw how well Myers and Rathbone played with each other. They looked better than Edler-Schmidt, and I don't mind giving them the same "deployment". It leaves us with excellent depth for the 2nd and 3rd pairings with OEL, Poolman, Hughes, Schenn, and Hamonic (if he stays healthy).

Miller trade to prop up Petey. Same with OEL/Hughes.

 

[Cornwallace]

Those stats don't take into account if Chatfield, Benn, Juolevi or Rafferty were on the ice. Myers and Hughes our only defencemen to have games with 30+ minutes. Our defence were stretched last year even when Hamonic was healthy.

I watch the NHL playoffs. I've seen Schmidt play well in Vegas. He had a bad season in Vancouver, maybe he was babysitting Edler or he wasn't motivated coming from Vegas. There's videos of him costing us goals on YouTube with bone headed plays. Vegas' management upgraded on Schmidt after falling short in the playoffs. It was reported Nate requested a move out of Vancouver and it makes sense the way he played. He's like a TJ Brodie type. Nothing unique or great about his game.

We saw how well Myers and Rathbone played with each other. They looked better than Edler-Schmidt, and I don't mind giving them the same "deployment". It leaves us with excellent depth for the 2nd and 3rd pairings with OEL, Poolman, Hughes, Schenn, and Hamonic (if he stays healthy).

Miller trade to prop up Petey. Same with OEL/Hughes.

When you play easier match ups you get lower quality teammates, it's not a hard concept to grasp. If Myers was half as good as you think he is defensively he would been able to manage the easier match ups with a worse partner.

I'm honestly not even sure if you're being serious or trolling at this point lol... Myers and Rathbone as the first pairing? You clearly still don't understand deployment if you're comparing guys who ate the tough minutes to a guy who got shit on in easier match ups and a rookie who averaged 15min/game lol... Do you actually think it would be a good idea to deploy them as the first defensive pair? Yikes!

 

[Breakers]

Helps if you have a coaching staff that can implement systems.

 

[M2Beezy]

Helps if you have a coaching staff that can implement systems.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Those stats don't take into account if Chatfield, Benn, Juolevi or Rafferty were on the ice. Myers and Hughes our only defencemen to have games with 30+ minutes. Our defence were stretched last year even when Hamonic was healthy.

I watch the NHL playoffs. I've seen Schmidt play well in Vegas. He had a bad season in Vancouver, maybe he was babysitting Edler or he wasn't motivated coming from Vegas. There's videos of him costing us goals on YouTube with bone headed plays. Vegas' management upgraded on Schmidt after falling short in the playoffs. It was reported Nate requested a move out of Vancouver and it makes sense the way he played. He's like a TJ Brodie type. Nothing unique or great about his game.

We saw how well Myers and Rathbone played with each other. They looked better than Edler-Schmidt, and I don't mind giving them the same "deployment". It leaves us with excellent depth for the 2nd and 3rd pairings with OEL, Poolman, Hughes, Schenn, and Hamonic (if he stays healthy).

Miller trade to prop up Petey. Same with OEL/Hughes.

Myers didn't play with...any of those players for any length of time.

Myers and Hughes had higher incidences of 30+ minutes of icetime because they kept on getting pinned in their own end.

Nobody would argue Pietrangelo wouldn't be an upgrade on Schmidt. Obviously Schmidt didn't work out here and wanted out, but if you really think TJ Brodie wouldn't instantly improve the Canucks' D, then I just don't know what to tell you.

I love Rathbone as much as anyone on this board. I said in the summer (and I stand by it) that I think he *could* be better than Hughes. But he has 8 NHL games, and you're talking about sticking him with Myers on top shutdown duties? Complete insanity. You trying to give the kid a nervous breakdown or something?

And deployment is real. It's a thing. Oh, I dropped my beer and it fell to the floor because of "gravity". Yeah, no.

 

[strattonius]

Myers didn't play with...any of those players for any length of time.

Myers and Hughes had higher incidences of 30+ minutes of icetime because they kept on getting pinned in their own end.

Nobody would argue Pietrangelo wouldn't be an upgrade on Schmidt. Obviously Schmidt didn't work out here and wanted out, but if you really think TJ Brodie wouldn't instantly improve the Canucks' D, then I just don't know what to tell you.

I love Rathbone as much as anyone on this board. I said in the summer (and I stand by it) that I think he *could* be better than Hughes. But he has 8 NHL games, and you're talking about sticking him with Myers on top shutdown duties? Complete insanity. You trying to give the kid a nervous breakdown or something?

And deployment is real. It's a thing. Oh, I dropped my beer and it fell to the floor because of "gravity". Yeah, no.

Suggesting at this point that Rathbone could be better than Hughes is also insanity.

Even projecting Rathbone to develop in to a stellar two way defenseman would mean you think Hughes' defensive game will remain completely stagnant after his 2nd season.

How easy we forget Hughes' miraculous rookie season where he was at the very least solid in his own end with a competent partner.

Just saying- if you're going to call someone out for insanity just know we all have our own dose of it.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Suggesting at this point that Rathbone could be better than Hughes is also insanity.

Even projecting Rathbone to develop in to a stellar two way defenseman would mean you think Hughes' defensive game will remain completely stagnant after his 2nd season.

How easy we forget Hughes' miraculous rookie season where he was at the very least solid in his own end with a competent partner.

Just saying- if you're going to call someone out for insanity just know we all have our own dose of it.

I said *could*, okay? See the asterisks? Could. Not will, not necessarily, not let's pretend he's going to be...just that he could.

I mean, he definitely won't if he's thrown into shutdown duty with Tyler freaking Myers anytime soon...

But I dunno. I just saw something really special with this kid. His skating reminded me a lot of Hughes; but much more confident with the puck in his own zone. I just hope he gets the chance to develop properly.

 

[Get North]

When you play easier match ups you get lower quality teammates, it's not a hard concept to grasp. If Myers was half as good as you think he is defensively he would been able to manage the easier match ups with a worse partner.

I'm honestly not even sure if you're being serious or trolling at this point lol... Myers and Rathbone as the first pairing? You clearly still don't understand deployment if you're comparing guys who ate the tough minutes to a guy who got shit on in easier match ups and a rookie who averaged 15min/game lol... Do you actually think it would be a good idea to deploy them as the first defensive pair? Yikes!

The defence is better than last year. Imagine the season never ended when Rathbone joined the team. That pairing had better on ice results than Schmidt-Edler in 8 games, and if that continued for 10-20 games then why wouldn't you give Rath/Myers more ice-time? No Jordie Benn means we'll have 6 NHL defencemen and less liabilities when injuries hit.

We can continue to bang our head on the wall and deploy Edler as 1st pairing LD, but that hasn't brought us success in 10 years. The defence core needed to be rearranged and Myers provides more aid to our LDs than Schmidt.

Rathbone and Hughes are the most talented players on defence, but they're 22 years old. Next season Green should make sure they develop well. That's the most important thing. There's a ton of flexibility, we shouldn't see the same pairings for weeks on end unless we're winning.

Nate Schmidt didn't want to be here. The stats can tell you whatever, it's not worth reading them from last year. We played without Petey/Hamonic. Guys like Miller and Holtby used fatigue as an excuse to give up. You put a lot of opinion into the final number, but make sure you focus on the variables and how it might affect the stat.

 

[Cornwallace]

The defence is better than last year. Imagine the season never ended when Rathbone joined the team. That pairing had better on ice results than Schmidt-Edler in 8 games, and if that continued for 10-20 games then why wouldn't you give Rath/Myers more ice-time? No Jordie Benn means we'll have 6 NHL defencemen and less liabilities when injuries hit.

We can continue to bang our head on the wall and deploy Edler as 1st pairing LD, but that hasn't brought us success in 10 years. The defence core needed to be rearranged and Myers provides more aid to our LDs than Schmidt.

Rathbone and Hughes are the most talented players on defence, but they're 22 years old. Next season Green should make sure they develop well. That's the most important thing. There's a ton of flexibility, we shouldn't see the same pairings for weeks on end unless we're winning.

Nate Schmidt didn't want to be here. The stats can tell you whatever, it's not worth reading them from last year. We played without Petey/Hamonic. Guys like Miller and Holtby used fatigue as an excuse to give up. You put a lot of opinion into the final number, but make sure you focus on the variables and how it might affect the stat.

Cool straw man bro

How can the bolded be true when you're the one clutching to random statistics while completely disregarding the variables (sheltered minutes) that they were generated in? That's such an asinine thing thing to say when all you've been doing is ignoring such variables...

You're basing everything off of an extremely small sample size of 8 games during which Myers was only Rathbones partner for 60% of his ice-time. How are you going to talk about making sure Rathbone develops well while simultaneously suggesting he be thrown to the wolves with first line match ups?

You can make up whatever excuses you'd like but they won't magically make Myers or a 22 year old with 8 games NHL games experience capable of playing 1st line minutes.

 

[Get North]

Cool straw man bro

How can the bolded be true when you're the one clutching to random statistics while completely disregarding the variables (sheltered minutes) that they were generated in? That's such an asinine thing thing to say when all you've been doing is ignoring such variables...

You're basing everything off of an extremely small sample size of 8 games during which Myers was only Rathbones partner for 60% of his ice-time. How are you going to talk about making sure Rathbone develops well while simultaneously suggesting he be thrown to the wolves with first line match ups?

You can make up whatever excuses you'd like but they won't magically make Myers or a 22 year old with 8 games NHL games experience capable of playing 1st line minutes.

We'll see in training camp what happens. You can find a Nate Schmidt for a 3rd round pick and Edlers in free agency, it's really not a big deal that we lost those players. They couldn't play with Rathbone or OEL which Myers actually can. You're worried so much about the deployment against 1st line players, but it's a relief because it can't get worse from last year.

Who knows if Green will even "match" lines. When you have a deep team, you can take turns using defencemen against 1st lines. It depends on the right side partner and forwards too. The regular season doesn't necessarily require the same attention to match-ups as playoffs do. The roster isn't perfect, but it's good enough to win games with a competent coach. The bottom of the roster is most impressive if you pencil in Rathbone as 3rd pairing. It could be best 3LD in the division.

 

[strattonius]

I said *could*, okay? See the asterisks? Could. Not will, not necessarily, not let's pretend he's going to be...just that he could.

I mean, he definitely won't if he's thrown into shutdown duty with Tyler freaking Myers anytime soon...

But I dunno. I just saw something really special with this kid. His skating reminded me a lot of Hughes; but much more confident with the puck in his own zone. I just hope he gets the chance to develop properly.

I'm saying your hypothetical 'could' scenario is insanely unlikely - about as unlikely as Rathbone and Myers with top pairing duties.

This is the off-season of Rathbone. Everyone is all horned up on what he could bring and offer to the roster. Hughes had a lackluster sophomore season, especially with what we were sampled with in his rookie season. So often we're getting this Rathbone potentially better than Hughes rhetoric. I don't know maybe I'm just triggered with all the negative Hughes talk.

 

[Hit the post]

They did hit on a late round dman.

Gustav Forsling.

The Canucks scout that found Gradin, Ohlund, Naslund, Henrik & Daniel Sedin, EP, and of course Forsling. Delorme: "They were the best players I ever saw in practice".

The greatest Canuck!

 

[iceburg]

Reviving this thread given camp is about to start. Key line from original post in 2021:

"there is a significant need to build the defense prospect pool in order to have any kind of sustained success."

Clearly, this is something that has yet to be addressed sufficiently. 2021 list with 2022 notes:

Rathbone - expectation to be with NHL club for full season.
Woo - fallen down the depth charts. Expect him to be a career AHLer.
Jurmo - showed well at prospects camp. Good year in Liiga 21/22. Important cog for the Finish WJC-20 team.
Persson - decent size and skating, RHD but, at 20 for most of the season, he should have done more in the WHL last year. Not high expectations. Liiga this year.
Truscott - very good NCAA year. Selected to the WJC-20 club.
Myrenberg - RHD decent size. Good junior year to add to 15 games in the SHL. HockeyAllsvenskan for 2022 start. Some reported a very good development camp.
Gabrielson - shoulder surgery. Will miss beginning of Allsvenskan season. Interested to see if he gets some SHL time this year.
Utunen - unsigned. No longer in the system.


New this year:

Johansson - RHD. former 1st rounder in 2018 unsigned by Minn. Canucks signed him to ELC. SHL 2022. Reports from development camp weren't great.
Pettersson - LHD. 2022 draft 3rd round. Good development camp. One to watch for sure.
Dorrington - LHD. 2022 draft 6th round
Kudryavstev - LHD. 2022 draft 7th round


So, to compare years, I see these as the risers, fallers, and to watchers. Note that this is just in my brain based in large part on what my expectations were last year and with less information at that time.

Risers

Rathbone - showed that he can dominate the AHL. NHL caliber.
Jurmo - this is an important year for him. Could he be in Abbotsford in 23/24?
Truscott - should be a go to guy in the NCAA this year. We'll see how he responds.
Myrenberg - really looking forward to following him this year. Hoping he gets lots of SHL time.

Fallers
Persson - a faller probably more to do with higher than reasonable expectations last year.
Woo - will need to show something more this year if he isn't going to be relegated to AHL career status.

To Watchers:

Gabrielson
Johansson
Pettersson
Dorrington
Kudryavstev

Final thoughts: Beyond the NHL roster (which will include Rathbone) the club still does not have any defensive prospects that are clearly expected to be NHL players. In-other-words, a year later there is still a lot of work to do.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Last go round the team built the D in quite an unorthodox way. Tanev (undrafted), Hamhuis (home town FA signing), Ehrhoff (opportunistic trade with cap strapped team), Edler (non first round draft pick).
While I don’t think that this is replicable as there was some luck involved plus the team had the cap space to make favourable trades/signings, given the current state of our D prospect pool, we have to take advantage of all avenues and hope for some luck with later round draft picks hitting. Freeing up cap space next off season would certainly be a great first step and drafting some young D earlier in the draft would also help.

 

[Hit the post]

Mike Gillis left Jim Rutherford with nothing.

 

[VanJack]

I think there's a chance that Myrenberg, Elias Pettersson II, or Jurmo could play. At least they're trending in the right direction in Europe. All have good size, skating ability and some offensive upside.

But I guess every team in the NHL has players like this in their system. So only time will tell.