Confirmed with Link: Declan Chisholm claimed by Minnesota.

Jet

Free Capo!
Jul 20, 2004
33,440
33,023
Florida
+/- : Some goals count. Some don't.
Bad player on good team gets skewed results.
Good player on bad team gets skewed results.
Among many other things. Honestly, +/- has been so analyzed and explained away to death it shouldn't need to be discussed any more. There is something real underlying it but the flaws create so much noise overtop of the real thing measured that it gets completely buried. It becomes just a random number.

I posted a link to one of Garrett's articles on it just a few days ago.

The "some posters say" is simply providing some actual eyes on observation. It isn't absolute proof of anything but it appears to be near unanimous. Take it FWIW.

What strawmen? What emotion? If either of us is posting emotionally, it appears to me to be you. You are ignoring that I agree that Capo has earned a look. But Ville earned more than a look. He earned an opening night spot in the NHL. Probably would have started, though we can't know that for certain. Whether he would have kept that job or not we can't know either. If he had faded against NHL competition he would have been sent down. But injury prevented any of that.
It started with plus minus rightfully having its shortcomings pointed out, to people getting whipped into a frenzy and then all of the sudden its the most worthless stat ever! Then it bounces around the echo chamber until it's this undeniable fact somehow.

Plus minus still has value, in context. The nhl still uses it, and particular in outlier cases with a good sample size it can help tell the story, as in Capos case.

What's HILARIOUS about it is the fancystats dudes who trumpet how bad it is and point out all the reasons why conveniently leave out that many of their 'advanced stats' have the very same flaws.

Hmmmm, maybe they have something to gain??
 

Mortimer Snerd

You kids get off my lawn!
Sponsor
Jun 10, 2014
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It started with plus minus rightfully having its shortcomings pointed out, to people getting whipped into a frenzy and then all of the sudden its the most worthless stat ever! Then it bounces around the echo chamber until it's this undeniable fact somehow.

Plus minus still has value, in context. The nhl still uses it, and particular in outlier cases with a good sample size it can help tell the story, as in Capos case.

What's HILARIOUS about it is the fancystats dudes who trumpet how bad it is and point out all the reasons why conveniently leave out that many of their 'advanced stats' have the very same flaws.

Hmmmm, maybe they have something to gain??

All stats have flaws. +/- minus is flawed to complete uselessness. You are free to keep using it and quoting it if you wish. I will continue to believe that it is worthless.

The NHL continuing to use it is not an endorsement.

Have you read Garrett's writings on the subject? Totally convinced me. YMMV.

Whatever, you can use it but don't expect it to win you any debating points with those of us who do not.
 

Jet

Free Capo!
Jul 20, 2004
33,440
33,023
Florida
All stats have flaws. +/- minus is flawed to complete uselessness. You are free to keep using it and quoting it if you wish. I will continue to believe that it is worthless.

The NHL continuing to use it is not an endorsement.

Have you read Garrett's writings on the subject? Totally convinced me. YMMV.

Whatever, you can use it but don't expect it to win you any debating points with those of us who do not.
LOL ok then. I'm not really looking to convince people who are closed minded anyways.

In my line of work, I learned very early to challenge set notions and beliefs, and it's served me well.

I'd rather investigate and think independently and come to my own conclusions based on logic and data as opposed to just read and believe.
 
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Inanna

Maybe this year...
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Aug 29, 2022
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All stats have flaws. +/- minus is flawed to complete uselessness. You are free to keep using it and quoting it if you wish. I will continue to believe that it is worthless.

The NHL continuing to use it is not an endorsement.

Have you read Garrett's writings on the subject? Totally convinced me. YMMV.

Whatever, you can use it but don't expect it to win you any debating points with those of us who do not.
I like plus minus simply because I understand it.

All these other "advanced stats" are becoming ridiculous. I agree (just once) with the Walrus Wizard who dismisses them as just snake oil. They have shot maps and heat maps (which look like a mammogram reading) and percentages above and below expectations and similar nonsense. At some point, it all starts to look completely foolish, even if you think the actual data capture was accurate in the first place, which it often isn't as some critics have pointed out.

Let's just enjoy the action and not the stats. The crash and bang of the game, the brilliant plays, the accurate shots, the swish of AJF's hair as he.....oh, wait a minute.
 

Atoyot

Registered User
Jul 19, 2013
13,859
25,271
It started with plus minus rightfully having its shortcomings pointed out, to people getting whipped into a frenzy and then all of the sudden its the most worthless stat ever! Then it bounces around the echo chamber until it's this undeniable fact somehow.

Plus minus still has value, in context. The nhl still uses it, and particular in outlier cases with a good sample size it can help tell the story, as in Capos case.

What's HILARIOUS about it is the fancystats dudes who trumpet how bad it is and point out all the reasons why conveniently leave out that many of their 'advanced stats' have the very same flaws.

Hmmmm, maybe they have something to gain??
Teams don't use +/-. It's used in the media and on stat pages because it's what fans are familiar with. There's no sense in using it over 5v5 +/-.
 

Mortimer Snerd

You kids get off my lawn!
Sponsor
Jun 10, 2014
57,414
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I like plus minus simply because I understand it.

All these other "advanced stats" are becoming ridiculous. I agree (just once) with the Walrus Wizard who dismisses them as just snake oil. They have shot maps and heat maps (which look like a mammogram reading) and percentages above and below expectations and similar nonsense. At some point, it all starts to look completely foolish, even if you think the actual data capture was accurate in the first place, which it often isn't as some critics have pointed out.

Let's just enjoy the action and not the stats. The crash and bang of the game, the brilliant plays, the accurate shots, the swish of AJF's hair as he.....oh, wait a minute.

I wish the NHL would just alter +/- to take out some of its worst flaws. A straightforward stat that could be understood by those of us who haven't studied stats for ~60 years, if ever. Even strength G for minus against per 60.
 
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JetsFan815

Registered User
Jan 16, 2012
19,240
24,403
Teams don't use +/-. It's used in the media and on stat pages because it's what fans are familiar with. There's no sense in using it over 5v5 +/-.

Every coach I have heard an interview from has said they don't use +/- as published by the NHL. These are not just advanced guys but complete dinosaurs like Maurice, Torts, Bones and Babcock. They all say they use their own variation which is closer to 5v5 +-
 
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Hobble

Registered User
Sep 2, 2010
8,106
7,313
Just scored in his first ever game for Minny. It was a PP goal too lol.
1708217041367.gif
 

bustamente

Kinda Optimistic
Jun 29, 2015
41,976
80,637
White Out MB
Trading for Schmidt has been more of a hinderance than helpful for this team. I don't know if Chisholm will ever become a regular in the NHL but the Jets current top six are cemented in place this year.
 
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scelaton

Registered User
Jul 5, 2012
3,653
5,591
Played 21.5 mins today, led all Wild d-men in in 5 on 5 TOI. Also 3 points so far in 5 games with Minny.

Wild fans pretty happy with the returns on Chisholm so far


I think a lot of Jets fans are happy for him as well. He's a skilled player and is finally getting the opportunity he deserves.
There is nothing to be gained by having recriminations at this point...but it is a good case study for anyone who does not understand the meaning of "opportunity cost".
 

Jet

Free Capo!
Jul 20, 2004
33,440
33,023
Florida
22nd overall
36th overall
Jonathan Kovacevic
Declan Chisholm

The cost so that Logan Stanley can sit in the PB.

Absolutely brutal asset management.
Ok, now do all of the moves the Jets made that was good asset management and improved our pool beyond what we had.

I'll do one that absolutely wipes out Chisholm and Kovacevic: Hellebuyck - 130th overall.

I said when it happened that I thought exposing Chisholm was a mistake. Kovacevic i still don't care about because he's still nothing more than a tweener who got to play simply based off of how bad Montreals D is. Even with that, he's been healthy scratched so that's all you really need to know.

I think the Jets should have cut bait with Stanley this past offseason and got whatever they could for him, simply based off of what we had ready to come out of the pipeline.

Looking at it wholelistically, Stanley is one of the few mistakes Chevy and group has made. Every team makes asset management mistakes and all you can do is try to win more than you lose, and I think e can agree Chevy has done that in spades.
 

Maukkis

EZ4ENCE
Mar 16, 2016
10,589
7,317
22nd overall
36th overall
Jonathan Kovacevic
Declan Chisholm

The cost so that Logan Stanley can sit in the PB.

Absolutely brutal asset management.
If Chevy adds a depth defenseman for the playoff run, fire him immediately. He doesn't deserve to add one after losing two for nothing.

You can likely add Heinola to the list next year. The reports I've seen in Finnish don't exactly say it, but it seems like a trade request was submitted some time ago already. We'll have to wait and see just how expensive this Stanley debacle gets for the org.
 

CorgisPer60

Barking at the net
Apr 15, 2012
21,352
9,988
Please Understand
Looking at it wholelistically, Stanley is one of the few mistakes Chevy and group has made. Every team makes asset management mistakes and all you can do is try to win more than you lose, and I think e can agree Chevy has done that in spades.

Agreed. I've been long a fan of Chevy's drafting model, and has hit more hits than misses as far as relative value for the pick is. There are a bunch of players that he missed on, but were picked so far back in the draft that it's a crap shoot. When you're picking in the middle of the 1st round, though, that window of opportunity is much larger. Picking Stanley where he was, then doing every single f***ing thing he could to keep him around for 8 years is worse than just picking him. As I said, I'm so frustrated with all the baggage surrounding him that I want him gone so I never have to be angry about his usage again. It's not his fault that Chevy and his team made a bad choice, but it's entirely Chevy's fault that he's where he is. I would much rather have Chisholm on the back end than Stanley. Bet on the ceiling, not the floor. f***ing christ.
 

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