Player Discussion David Quinn: Part VI

[Tawnos]

Isn't that exactly what happened when he was promoted to Pittsburgh from Wilkes-Barre?

He took an underperforming team and made them live up to their abilities.

 

[JHS]

Happens every year right now: predictions of the decline of Crosby and Malkin. If it doesn't happen, the Penguins making the playoffs isn't over-performing. It hasn't happened yet. Maybe next year.

Wait- so how can a team over perform by any other definition other than out playing the predictions and realities( about half their roster is out/ injured including Malkin.)? If you can;'t give Sullivan credit for getting his team into a playoff run without a good deal of his roster and missing half the stars on the team I'm not sure who you'd ever consider coaching up a team. He coached up a team and is getting them to outperform. I'm seriously at a loss as to how you define coaching a team to outperforming.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Isn't that exactly what happened when he was promoted to Pittsburgh from Wilkes-Barre?

I know they had in juries in 14-15 but they always have injuries. He took an 8 seed that was out in 5 in the first round in 14-15 to back to back cups. People are falling over themselves to defend Quinn, but apparently that's not impressive.

 

[3rd Guy High]

I’ve made it pretty apparent I think Quinn is a bad coach.

I think others are making it apparent that they don’t necessarily love the guy, but there aren’t many options at the moment.

And then there’s a very minority third group that likes him and wants him to get an extension (which I group in as not necessarily knowing what they are looking at to say it nicely)

GMs typically get to hire two coaches. Quinn is out some point soon. Question is, what does Gorton do? Personally, I think they start the year with Quinn, can him ~10 games in if the rangers don’t get off to a hot start, let Martin fill in until they see someone they like (Mike Sullivan etc).

 

[JHS]

I know they had in juries in 14-15 but they always have injuries. He took an 8 seed that was out in 5 in the first round in 14-15 to back to back cups. People are falling over themselves to defend Quinn, but apparently that's not impressive.

Yeah I mean it's literally comical. Quinn gets blanket passes for everything. Sullivan has virtually the same excuses if not more, does a far better job coaching but apparently still not better.--at least according to the Quinnbros

 

[Tawnos]

Wait- so how can a team over perform by any other definition other than out playing the predictions and realities( about half their roster is out/ injured including Malkin.)? If you can;'t give Sullivan credit for getting his team into a playoff run without a good deal of his roster and missing half the stars on the team I'm not sure who you'd ever consider coaching up a team. He coached up a team and is getting them to outperform. I'm seriously at a loss as to how you define coaching a team to outperforming.

As always, context is king. Every prediction and “reality” where people were down on the Penguins was based on those guys declining and a residual of them losing to the Habs in the play-in. But they aren’t. And the Penguins have been easily making the playoffs for 10+ years with major man games lost, not just from the top 2 guys, but from a lot of the team. It’s not overperforming if it’s what they’ve done at least a half dozen times... including before Sullivan even got there.

Sullivan’s Penguins team is performing as you’d expect under the circumstances. Quinn’s team is performing as you’d expect under the circumstances.

 

[JHS]

As always, context is king. Every prediction and “reality” where people were down on the Penguins was based on those guys declining and a residual of them losing to the Habs in the play-in. But they aren’t. And the Penguins have been easily making the playoffs for 10+ years with major man games lost, not just from the top 2 guys, but from a lot of the team. It’s not overperforming if it’s what they’ve done at least a half dozen times... including before Sullivan even got there.

Sullivan’s Penguins team is performing as you’d expect under the circumstances. Quinn’s team is performing as you’d expect under the circumstances.

I can't go down the circular logic pathway again. Because the Penguins have overperformed for years by having several games with a shortened roster filled with injured players now means the coach can't get guys to overperform and collectively be viewed as a coach who has a tradition of getting his teams to outperform....the logic here escapes me. You are making my point-- he's got a track record of getting his teams to outperform and overcome obstacles.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Happens every year right now: predictions of the decline of Crosby and Malkin. If it doesn't happen, the Penguins making the playoffs isn't over-performing. It hasn't happened yet. Maybe next year.

They won 1 cup before he came. They were a one and out 8 seed the season before he came and won back to back cups. It's not like he just got them in the playoffs, he got them cups. Now the last couple of years they haven't been that impressive, losing in the bubble last year and I think the first round the season before that, but part of the reason it wasn't as impressive is because of the standard he set for the team. Quinn has done so little that a non-playoff team is considered a great job. If he actually did anything as a coach prior to this year this would be considered a disappointment.

 

[Tawnos]

I can't go down the circular logic pathway again. Because the Penguins have overperformed for years by having several games with a shortened roster filled with injured players now means the coach can't get guys to overperform and collectively be viewed as a coach who has a tradition of getting his teams to outperform....the logic here escapes me. You are making my point-- he's got a track record of getting his teams to outperform and overcome obstacles.

At some point, you have to stop considering something that happens over and over as a team overperforming. That's pretty basic logic there. Also, they did it plenty with Dan Bylsma as their coach. It's a very normal level of performance for them (depressingly for us Rangers fans).

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

No way to Babcock - the way he treats player any star who could would bolt and horrible for young player development.

Having a coach who doesn’t know how to coach winning hockey is worse for player development. The leafs kids developed pretty freakin well for such a horrible problematic coach.

 

[WojtekWolski86]

I know they had in juries in 14-15 but they always have injuries. He took an 8 seed that was out in 5 in the first round in 14-15 to back to back cups. People are falling over themselves to defend Quinn, but apparently that's not impressive.

Ironically, Sullivan is like the polished version of what Quinn wants his team to play like. As much as we hate Crosby for his cry baby antics on the ice. That dude lives, eats, breathes hockey and putting in the work. Call it their development system in the AHL or scouting but at the end of the day if you get called up and see Crosby out their with weighted vests on and be the hardest working dude in practice (especially when he was the #1 player in hockey before McDavid came along) you are thinking that you can't let him outwork you. Especially if you are supposed to be the grinder.

 

[RempireStateBuilding]

At some point, you have to stop considering something that happens over and over as a team overperforming. That's pretty basic logic there. Also, they did it plenty with Dan Bylsma as their coach. It's a very normal level of performance for them (depressingly for us Rangers fans).

Bylsma had to do next to nothing and still managed to f*** up some prime years in Pittsburgh. 1 Cup in 08-09 when Malkin had his monster playoffs, then the next highest showing in the following 6 years was a single conference finals appearance. Oh and don't forget that massive collapse they had where NYR came back from being down 3-1 in the 2nd round to beat them under Bylsma's watch. Wouldn't consider what they did under him as "overperforming" or even performing up to their abilities.

The Pens hired Sullivan in 14-15 a couple of years after NYR gave him and Torts the boot, then proceeded to win back to back Cups after his first season.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Bylsma had to do next to nothing and still managed to f*** up some prime years in Pittsburgh. 1 Cup in 08-09 when Malkin had his monster playoffs, then the next highest showing in the following 6 years was a single conference finals appearance. Oh and don't forget that massive collapse they had where NYR came back from being down 3-1 in the 2nd round to beat them under Bylsma's watch. Wouldn't consider what they did under him as "overperforming" or even performing up to their abilities.

The Pens hired Sullivan in 14-15 a couple of years after NYR gave him and Torts the boot, then proceeded to win back to back Cups after his first season.

I wonder if half the Pens board died on the Bylsma hill.

 

[B17 Apricots]

Might not be the big ticket some are looking for but I'm not against promoting from within and giving Knoblauch a shot. Guy has coached some tremendous talent in the past

 

[Tawnos]

Bylsma had to do next to nothing and still managed to f*** up some prime years in Pittsburgh. 1 Cup in 08-09 when Malkin had his monster playoffs, then the next highest showing in the following 6 years was a single conference finals appearance. Oh and don't forget that massive collapse they had where NYR came back from being down 3-1 in the 2nd round to beat them under Bylsma's watch. Wouldn't consider what they did under him as "overperforming" or even performing up to their abilities.

The Pens hired Sullivan in 14-15 a couple of years after NYR gave him and Torts the boot, then proceeded to win back to back Cups after his first season.

Yeah, I'm aware of all of that*. I was more talking about regular season performance, where they've pretty much been the same team, year-in, year-out. They've just never had any problems overcoming injuries (which they've had a ton of) and winning a lot of games, regardless who their coach was. A ton of that has to do with the personalities of Crosby and Malkin. The team was over 100 points and finished 1 or 2 in the division in every season under Bylsma. Their playoff performance ultimately cost him his job, but they performed as expected in the regular season every year.

Nothing I'm saying is to take away from what Sullivan has actually done. I just don't think he's gotten the team to overperform. He's gotten them to perform as expected, which is no small feat.

*Sullivan was hired in 15-16 after a year and a half of Mike Johnston being the Pens coach. Johnston got fired because the Penguins made a bunch of roster moves after their worst season since the Crosby era got into full swing and the team still wasn't doing well.

 

[JHS]

At some point, you have to stop considering something that happens over and over as a team overperforming. That's pretty basic logic there. Also, they did it plenty with Dan Bylsma as their coach. It's a very normal level of performance for them (depressingly for us Rangers fans).

No you have to look at the sum of the parts and if the sum of the parts is low( ie players are injured and missing games meaning the overall roster is not very good) but the outcome is consistently better than the parts( ie consistent playoff appearances plus overachieving predictions) the coach, by definition is coaching his team to a better than expected outcome. I’m floored by your logic. You seem to believe that because the Penguins are consistently good and Sullivan is consistently coaching a roster filled with injured players that this somehow makes him not a coach with a proven record of outperforming expectations. So he now gets punished in your eyes for doing a great job because he’s expected to always do a great job? Ok-....

 

[JHS]

Bylsma had to do next to nothing and still managed to f*** up some prime years in Pittsburgh. 1 Cup in 08-09 when Malkin had his monster playoffs, then the next highest showing in the following 6 years was a single conference finals appearance. Oh and don't forget that massive collapse they had where NYR came back from being down 3-1 in the 2nd round to beat them under Bylsma's watch. Wouldn't consider what they did under him as "overperforming" or even performing up to their abilities.

The Pens hired Sullivan in 14-15 a couple of years after NYR gave him and Torts the boot, then proceeded to win back to back Cups after his first season.

Exactly— but our friend here wants to give 0 credit to the coach for “outperforming” because he does it each and every year and therefore we should come to expect that. Ranger fans can only hope to have a team for several seasons that is “expected to outperform” the sum of the parts.

 

[fm]

I'm not a fan of Quinn -- but I think a lot of his decisions that frustrate us, are ones that 90% of other NHL coaches do. Line blender, kids on a tighter leash than vets, leaning on the big guns.

That said, he takes some of them to the extreme. The first unit taking all of the PP time -- are they doing that or is he? Crazy. But coaches do a lot of short sighted things when they're trying to sprint into the playoffs. Your best guys want to play. They feel they deserve it. Remember when Torts benched Richards? Richards sucked and he deserve to sit. But IMO that cost Torts the room and his head. You play your best players. Torts failed Richards long before it came to sitting during elimination games.

I'm not sure Quinn is the motivator needed to win at this level. Sort of reminds me of the Renney era. Guy had a different set of rules for the Jagr cadre and for the rest of the team (who were mainly young bangers). The game is different now though. You need 4 lines going.

It will be very interesting to see what happens this summer. The roster needs some umph. The coaching isn't great. Would love a shakeup in both areas. Just not a fan of Eichel.

 

[Tawnos]

No you have to look at the sum of the parts and if the sum of the parts is low( ie players are injured and missing games meaning the overall roster is not very good) but the outcome is consistently better than the parts( ie consistent playoff appearances plus overachieving predictions) the coach, by definition is coaching his team to a better than expected outcome. I’m floored by your logic. You seem to believe that because the Penguins are consistently good and Sullivan is consistently coaching a roster filled with injured players that this somehow makes him not a coach with a proven record of outperforming expectations. So he now gets punished in your eyes for doing a great job because he’s expected to always do a great job? Ok-....

Literally not one thing I said is a punishment of Sullivan in any way. I'm tired of explaining this. It's not remotely a difficult concept to understand. Look inward.

Nothing I'm saying is to take away from what Sullivan has actually done. I just don't think he's gotten the team to overperform. He's gotten them to perform as expected, which is no small feat.

 

[huerter]

If we had Scott Dolson in charge of the search I might be able to be swayed. But we have freaking JD and Gorts.

Stay the course. See how next year goes.

 

[JHS]

Literally not one thing I said is a punishment of Sullivan in any way. I'm tired of explaining this. It's not remotely a difficult concept to understand. Look inward.

You said the Penguins consistently deal with issues and still find their way into the playoffs. I said that makes the coach someone capable of getting his teams to outperform expectations and then you went on about how consistently doing something means it can’t be considered outperforming since the team always does it. How consistently outperforming is not something achievable in your mind is what’s lost on me. It’s entirely possible for a team to have lower expectations each season and still exceed those expectations. Consistently exceeding expectations does not then, therefore, make the coach only capable of being credited with meeting the expectations.

Bottom line is, anyone who watches hockey and was gifted with eyesight can see Sullivan is clearly a way better coach than Quinn will ever be. In fact, you don’t even need eyesight, you could just have someone read their resumes and listen to them side by side and it’s not even remotely close. If you want to spin the circular semantically based wizardry that seems all to common around here to claim victory in discussions you can have that. I’ll take realistic hockey evaluation.

 

[Tawnos]

Who the f*** was comparing Sullivan and Quinn?

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Hey guys it's f***ing impossible to beat the unstoppable juggernaut Islanders. So the fact that Quinn got embarrassed in every big game he had against them is just a product of how terrible the poor man's roster is and how all time great the Islanders team is. Oh wait, the Islanders just lost to Buffalo. Carry on...

 

[MrEctions]

Quinn is trash. He never has this team ready to play out of the gate. He has zero f***ing clue in how to build lines and play to the teams strength. He has no fire or care for whats actually happening in the game. He needs to be shown the door, period.

 

[RGY]

They literally did nothing about Wilson. The season is over and he knocked your best player out of the game and you did nothing.

This Coach... it doesn’t need to be said anymore. This latest example just compounds what needs to be done.