Player Discussion David Quinn: Part IV

[duhmetreE]

I wrote to dispute the idea that the credit only belongs to the assistant coach. I don't have a pro-Quinn agenda. There are plenty of things Quinn does, like any coach, that I question. Like I said in my last post, he absolutely deserves blame for the offensive and PP failures so far this year.

He had two years with a tire fire of a defensive personnel and the defense was a tire fire. He's still to blame, because he sat there with a system that wasn't tailored to the defensemen and defensive capabilities of the forwards he had, but that context is definitely important here. They're playing the same system with some tweaks they played last year and the year before. Players are faster to fall into the structure in the D zone and there are more sticks in lanes, but it's the same structure.

Literally every head coach needs good/great assistant coaches to help... or you know, assist... with implementing their system. That's the role.

In this instance, it does imho.

 

[Tawnos]

In this instance, it does imho.

And again, with ignoring the entirety of the post after the first sentence.

 

[duhmetreE]

And again, with ignoring the entirety of the post after the first sentence.

I'm not ignoring it. I just think it's wrong.

From what we've seen so far, Quinn is not good at implementing and coaching the team. This same exact team/roster would have been a tire fire, just like it was in the past without Martin. It's fine tuned with Martin. The nuances of the defensive game are present. Positioning, gaps, stick work, reads etc are all top notch. IF Quinn was 'involved' we would see this translate to the offensive side. It does not.

We're going in circles. We just disagree.

best way I can put it, Quinn is an 'individual' guy. Development of the player.
Martin is a team guy. Development of the team structure.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

If you really think that the assistant coach is the only one "directly responsible" for things and the head coach is not, maybe you should be the one to sit this one out. Every single thing that the assistant coaches are responsible for, the head coach is also responsible for. It's literally the reason why they're the head coach. If Martin is solely responsible for the defense and PK, then Oliver is solely responsible for the forwards and PP, Allaire for the goalies, and Brown for video coaching. And if that's all true, exactly what need is there for a head coach at all? The logic here is patently absurd. Assistants don't really do anything without the explicit or implicit approval of the head coach and the head coach has his hands in literally every aspect. Stop overemphasizing the role an assistant plays and underemphasizing the role the head coach plays.

Quinn DOES get blame the coach deserves for the offense and the PP, but he doesn't have any more of a hand in than the defense and the PK. It's the same thing. The problem, in both cases, is that we don't have a full picture. If the defense slowly falls apart over the course of the rest of the season, Quinn will get the blame the head coach deserves for that. If the defense maintains this level for the rest of the season, Quinn will get the credit the head coach deserves for that. If the offense turns around, Quinn will get the credit the head coach deserves for that. If the offense continues to suck, Quinn will get the blame the head coach deserves for that. Notice a trend here? The head coach gets the credit for the things that are good AND the blame for the things that are bad.

All of this can be informed by the personnel and the roster makeup, which is part of how much credit or blame really can be pinned on the coach, but it's no less true.

Our assistant coach (JM) runs and D and the PK. Those are his responsibilities direct responsibilities. The head coach doesn't really have his hand in those at all outside of signing off on who plays on the PK and when the D get deployed. Was the same way under Ruff. You can't semantic your way out of this by taking the "HURRRR YOU NEED TO LOOK AT THIS HOISTICALLY!!!" Yes technically you're right, but Quinn isn't the one who brought the changes, he's listening to the guy who did so if he gets credit for anything, it's getting credit for not being completely close minded so yay for that.

Also, he has MUCH more of a hand in the offense at 5v5 which has struggled for a myriad of reasons and at the very least, he has tried some different things here and tossed shit around a bit, but he's also looked completely clueless by reducing the ice time of guys who have been going in games and force feeding guys who haven't done anything. The PP is Oliver's responsibility (not 5v5, may want to take another look at his job responsibilities, thats Quinn) but again DQ signs off on who they use and when they're used. He's going to get more heat here because the PP sucks and he keeps running back to using the same group of players even though it hasn't worked. No one would be complaining if they were torching the league, but again, they aren't and he hasn't budged on changing things here - No one is placing all of the blame on him either, but this is another case of him taking a shitty situation and making it worse.

It's not as simple as getting no credit for the good (and he shouldn't get much credit for the things this team has done well, we've covered this extensively) but if you look at what has plagued this team so far this year, everything isn't his fault, but a lot of it does fall on his plate whether or not you want to admit it.

 

[True Blue]

Either way, you're wrong. David Quinn is not a great coach and he relies on a good/great coach, Martin

Funny. I do t recall claiming that he’s a great coach. As such, what am I wrong about?

If Martin is so great, why has he not been HC in so long? What he is, is an excellent assistant coach. And no one sings the accolades of an assistant ahead of the HC.

Stating that, is not really the same thing as claiming that a coach is a great coach or a hall of fame coach, now is it?

 

[duhmetreE]

Funny. I do t recall claiming that he’s a great coach. As such, what am I wrong about?

If Martin is so great, why has he not been HC in so long? What he is, is an excellent assistant coach. And no one sings the accolades of an assistant ahead of the HC.

Stating that, is not really the same thing as claiming that a coach is a great coach or a hall of fame coach, now is it?

If you're not calling Quinn a 'Great Coach', the point you were attempting to make is irrelevant. That's the point.

Using 'Great Coaches' as a parallel to David Quinn is the problem.

 

[Tawnos]

Our assistant coach (JM) runs and D and the PK. Those are his responsibilities direct responsibilities. The head coach doesn't really have his hand in those at all outside of signing off on who plays on the PK and when the D get deployed. Was the same way under Ruff. You can't semantic your way out of this by taking the "HURRRR YOU NEED TO LOOK AT THIS HOISTICALLY!!!" Yes technically you're right, but Quinn isn't the one who brought the changes, he's listening to the guy who did so if he gets credit for anything, it's getting credit for not being completely close minded so yay for that.

Also, he has MUCH more of a hand in the offense at 5v5 which has struggled for a myriad of reasons and at the very least, he has tried some different things here and tossed shit around a bit, but he's also looked completely clueless by reducing the ice time of guys who have been going in games and force feeding guys who haven't done anything. The PP is Oliver's responsibility (not 5v5, may want to take another look at his job responsibilities, thats Quinn) but again DQ signs off on who they use and when they're used. He's going to get more heat here because the PP sucks and he keeps running back to using the same group of players even though it hasn't worked. No one would be complaining if they were torching the league, but again, they aren't and he hasn't budged on changing things here - No one is placing all of the blame on him either, but this is another case of him taking a shitty situation and making it worse.

It's not as simple as getting no credit for the good (and he shouldn't get much credit for the things this team has done well, we've covered this extensively) but if you look at what has plagued this team so far this year, everything isn't his fault, but a lot of it does fall on his plate whether or not you want to admit it.

Most of this spiel is based on nothing as far as I can tell.

Show me where you're getting this idea that the assistant in charge of the defense and PK suddenly has a bigger role under Quinn than any assistant we had previously and any other assistant in the league. Show me where you're getting this idea that Quinn has more of a hand in the 5v5 offense than the 5v5 defense and that Oliver has less of a hand with the forwards than Martin does with the D. Under AV, Ulf Samuelsson was that assistant for 3 years, Jeff Beukeboom for 1, and Lindy Ruff for 1. Scott Arniel handled the forwards and PP. Did Beuk and Ruff change the design the defensive zone system? Or did they offer their tweaks, which AV either took or didn't, and work with the D on implementation? My point is that Quinn should be getting credit for more than just listening to Martin in regards to the defensive performance thus far. The changes we've seen this year are a result of tweaks Martin has made to the existing system and structure. They're tweaks, not complete changes and that existing system and the structure is Quinn's. Saying Martin deserves credit for it and Quinn doesn't is like saying the guy who chose the perfect frame deserves credit for a great piece of art while the painter doesn't.

On that last line, not only is it a great example of self contradiction (he shouldn't get much credit for the good but he should get a lot of blame for the bad), but I already said that Quinn deserves blame for areas we've played poorly this year.

 

[Tawnos]

I'm not ignoring it. I just think it's wrong.

From what we've seen so far, Quinn is not good at implementing and coaching the team. This same exact team/roster would have been a tire fire, just like it was in the past without Martin. It's fine tuned with Martin. The nuances of the defensive game are present. Positioning, gaps, stick work, reads etc are all top notch. IF Quinn was 'involved' we would see this translate to the offensive side. It does not.

We're going in circles. We just disagree.

best way I can put it, Quinn is an 'individual' guy. Development of the player.
Martin is a team guy. Development of the team structure.

Already last season, the "tire fire" aspect was starting to diminish, aside from the hiccup during the play-in. Why would that be? Martin wasn't even here yet. The answer is that players were getting better at playing in the structure. How could that possibly happen if Quinn was not good at implementation or coaching? For sure, part of that is player development, since Lindgren and Fox had started to emerge as the top defensive pairing by then. If players develop and they don't have a good structure in which to manifest that development, you're not going to see any of it. And we saw it.

Regarding the offense, the team's xGF is 6th in the league. Their 5th in scoring chances and 6th in high danger chances. Where Quinn is failing isn't system. Where Quinn is failing is getting guys to execute. One lever he has to press is line combinations, but the only thing he seems to look for with that is instant gratification. If it doesn't work right away, he doesn't stick with it. He took Kreider off Zibanejad's line one game, somewhere in January or earlier this month... it didn't get either of them going, so he put them back together the next game. Getting players to listen to what you're preaching is a skill too, and one where he hasn't been great so far with the offense. Shooting the puck isn't a problem... they do it a lot, but you know he's been preaching "more straight line plays" and "stop in front of the net" for weeks and weeks and the guys haven't been doing it. Those aren't structure problems, they're execution problems. Looks like some of those things are turning a corner.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Most of this spiel is based on nothing as far as I can tell.

Show me where you're getting this idea that the assistant in charge of the defense and PK suddenly has a bigger role under Quinn than any assistant we had previously and any other assistant in the league. Show me where you're getting this idea that Quinn has more of a hand in the 5v5 offense than the 5v5 defense and that Oliver has less of a hand with the forwards than Martin does with the D. Under AV, Ulf Samuelsson was that assistant for 3 years, Jeff Beukeboom for 1, and Lindy Ruff for 1. Scott Arniel handled the forwards and PP. Did Beuk and Ruff change the design the defensive zone system? Or did they offer their tweaks, which AV either took or didn't, and work with the D on implementation? My point is that Quinn should be getting credit for more than just listening to Martin in regards to the defensive performance thus far. The changes we've seen this year are a result of tweaks Martin has made to the existing system and structure. They're tweaks, not complete changes and that existing system and the structure is Quinn's. Saying Martin deserves credit for it and Quinn doesn't is like saying the guy who chose the perfect frame deserves credit for a great piece of art while the painter doesn't.

On that last line, not only is it a great example of self contradiction (he shouldn't get much credit for the good but he should get a lot of blame for the bad), but I already said that Quinn deserves blame for areas we've played poorly this year.

On the bolded, you need to read what I said again.

He deserves blame for whats gone wrong because he's thrown fuel onto the flames with his decision making. If you want to give him credit for not trying to mix things up with something that is clearly working (and doesn't really have a hand in, repeating that he does will not change facts and make it true) then sure, toss those gold starts to your hearts content.

Also, you clearly don't understand how coaches hand out responsibilities in this league. Whats happening now is NO different than it's ever been. This just so happens to be the first time in a while where an assistant was brought in who has a drastically different approach/vision than his predecessor. The other times this has happened, it's been because the top guy was being replaced, so obviously the other guys would change as well (with the exception of the Quinn hire, but its not a coincidence that they still played D like they did under AV until he left and was replaced. Hmm, wonder what caused that to change?)

I'm bowing out of this one now as its really a waste of time as we're never going to agree and don't really feel like getting dragged into another HS debate club style of conversation with you.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Already last season, the "tire fire" aspect was starting to diminish, aside from the hiccup during the play-in. Why would that be? Martin wasn't even here yet. The answer is that players were getting better at playing in the structure. How could that possibly happen if Quinn was not good at implementation or coaching? For sure, part of that is player development, since Lindgren and Fox had started to emerge as the top defensive pairing by then. If players develop and they don't have a good structure in which to manifest that development, you're not going to see any of it. And we saw it.

Regarding the offense, the team's xGF is 6th in the league. Their 5th in scoring chances and 6th in high danger chances. Where Quinn is failing isn't system. Where Quinn is failing is getting guys to execute. One lever he has to press is line combinations, but the only thing he seems to look for with that is instant gratification. If it doesn't work right away, he doesn't stick with it. He took Kreider off Zibanejad's line one game, somewhere in January or earlier this month... it didn't get either of them going, so he put them back together the next game. Getting players to listen to what you're preaching is a skill too, and one where he hasn't been great so far with the offense. Shooting the puck isn't a problem... they do it a lot, but you know he's been preaching "more straight line plays" and "stop in front of the net" for weeks and weeks and the guys haven't been doing it. Those aren't structure problems, they're execution problems. Looks like some of those things are turning a corner.

Where I will knock Quinn is the line combos. I don't understand his stubbornness with the the Kreider-Zib-Buch line. Sure they had some success and chemistry last season that they have not duplicated this one. But when he does break them up and there aren't immediate positive result, he quickly retreats and switches them back. I understand the hesitation to play Panarin andZib together, but it was nice to see it yesterday.

As far as the defense is concerned, from what I have seen the system being played this year is pretty similar to the one last year, just there is more comfort and familiarity to it and the guys who are executing it have a year's more experience.

 

[True Blue]

If you're not calling Quinn a 'Great Coach', the point you were attempting to make is irrelevant. That's the point.

Using 'Great Coaches' as a parallel to David Quinn is the problem.

No explaining that assistant coaches do not get mentioned as the head coach does, is not at all calling one great or not

 

[Tob]

Let's put it this way, you can remove Brown, Oliver, or Quinn and the defense would still function the same. If you removed Martin, it would eventually fall back apart. It's like one of those truck stuck in the snow plank of wood for traction situations. Quinn and his assistants are pushing from behind but without Jacque "The Plan" Martin, it'd never get anywhere. I refuse to give credit to the fry cook for the Colonel's chicken with his secret blend of 11 herbs and spices.

 

[duhmetreE]

Already last season, the "tire fire" aspect was starting to diminish, aside from the hiccup during the play-in. Why would that be? Martin wasn't even here yet. The answer is that players were getting better at playing in the structure. How could that possibly happen if Quinn was not good at implementation or coaching? For sure, part of that is player development, since Lindgren and Fox had started to emerge as the top defensive pairing by then. If players develop and they don't have a good structure in which to manifest that development, you're not going to see any of it. And we saw it.

Regarding the offense, the team's xGF is 6th in the league. Their 5th in scoring chances and 6th in high danger chances. Where Quinn is failing isn't system. Where Quinn is failing is getting guys to execute. One lever he has to press is line combinations, but the only thing he seems to look for with that is instant gratification. If it doesn't work right away, he doesn't stick with it. He took Kreider off Zibanejad's line one game, somewhere in January or earlier this month... it didn't get either of them going, so he put them back together the next game. Getting players to listen to what you're preaching is a skill too, and one where he hasn't been great so far with the offense. Shooting the puck isn't a problem... they do it a lot, but you know he's been preaching "more straight line plays" and "stop in front of the net" for weeks and weeks and the guys haven't been doing it. Those aren't structure problems, they're execution problems. Looks like some of those things are turning a corner.

I completely disagree. The tire fire may have seemed to diminish but it coincides with Shesty playing like a Vezina candidate. If I remember right we were still giving high quality scoring chances at Ruff rates.

I am weary of leaning on analytics for the offense because it does not pass the eye test. We dump/chip and chase predominantly. When we do get offensive zone time, everything is to the perimeter, with extremely rare presence in the middle of the ice. I disagree, in that not going to the middle of the ice is a structure/coaching problem. Quinn can say whatever he wants but there's an issue here with how its being implemented. All the players are getting it wrong and Quinn is right? or is it a communication/coaching issue?

We are decent at keeping possession but I have a hard time believing we lead the league in high danger chances. I'd like to see the source and how it's calculated. I'd argue that most of our shots are low-quality. Our offense is the example I'd give on why not to solely trust analytics. Our neutral zone game has improved significantly, along with the defense which in turn helps possession stats. Dont get me wrong, our finishing could be better, especially with Zibs doing a 180... I just don't think that's the main problem.

For the most part we play a 'Neanderthal simple' north south game. is that style predicated to this rosters strength? Can we carry the puck out? or into zone entry? Is it because of our Centers? Panarin sort of refutes that. I feel our system is not conducive to modern day NHL. It's Torts-era hockey but we have a high skill roster. I just don't get it.

Our positioning/spacing/puck support can be really, really bad some games, as if there's no structure to follow. Or is it by design? Forwards cheating for better positioning for the upcoming dump/chip? We see it way too often, someone has the puck and that puck carrier has literally ZERO options/outlets. Absolutely no where to go with the puck, where it typically ends in a turnover, a 'hope pass' or a dump/chip. It happen in every zone and I'm not a fan of just conceding possession at the rate we do. All of the inconsistencies and issues in the offense is why I do not think Quinn is a good coach and why I do not credit him for the defensive turnaround. He may be decent at player development but he's terrible at implementing/coaching the team.

Dont get me started on the PP. How do paid professionals think this is the 'optimal' setup with this roster? Oliver is 'in charge' of the PP but why is Quinn not changing the obvious things? Because I've come to realize, Quinn struggles with the obvious and/or over thinks it.

So, when we put it all together, I see major issues in everything but our defense. I give credit, predominantly, to Martin for that transformation. Hopefully Quinn proves me wrong, because that would mean the team is succeeding.

 

[Tawnos]

On the bolded, you need to read what I said again.

He deserves blame for whats gone wrong because he's thrown fuel onto the flames with his decision making. If you want to give him credit for not trying to mix things up with something that is clearly working (and doesn't really have a hand in, repeating that he does will not change facts and make it true) then sure, toss those gold starts to your hearts content.

Also, you clearly don't understand how coaches hand out responsibilities in this league. Whats happening now is NO different than it's ever been. This just so happens to be the first time in a while where an assistant was brought in who has a drastically different approach/vision than his predecessor. The other times this has happened, it's been because the top guy was being replaced, so obviously the other guys would change as well (with the exception of the Quinn hire, but its not a coincidence that they still played D like they did under AV until he left and was replaced. Hmm, wonder what caused that to change?)

I'm bowing out of this one now as its really a waste of time as we're never going to agree and don't really feel like getting dragged into another HS debate club style of conversation with you.

I mean, I already think you should sit this one out. If you don't want to be involved in these conversations, it's pretty simple. Stop posting. I don't mean in this conversation. I mean in general. Especially if you think the point of this is to convince anyone of your point-of-view.

I read what you said. You said "Our assistant coach (JM) runs and D and the PK. Those are his responsibilities direct responsibilities. The head coach doesn't really have his hand in those at all outside of signing off on who plays on the PK and when the D get deployed." That would make Martin essentially a defensive coordinator like they have in football. Assistant coaches in the NHL are not like that. Occasionally associate coaches will be. So I read what you said, but you still haven't shown me that this is true. Especially considering that the approach and vision aren't drastically different with Martin as an assistant than they were under Ruff. Execution is better and there have been tweaks in a positive direction. Both of those things are a credit to Martin as well as Quinn. It's not one or the other. There's no need, at all, to compartmentalize these things.

Thinking they played the same structure under Quinn as AV is just really poor recognition of what went on. Results wise, things were pretty similar, which shouldn't be a shock because the quality of the roster hadn't gotten any better than at the very end of AV's last season. Superficially, a shitty defensive roster is going to look the same no matter what structure is being played. Even then, the things the team was trying to do in the defensive zone were VASTLY different than what they were doing under AV.

Like I said in another post, I haven't been a fan of the way he's gone about lineup changes and the way he doesn't stick to them. No gold stars there.

 

[kovazub94]

Do those of you who argue Martin > Quinn (when it comes to defense)

1. Think the Rangers are playing different defensive system this year?

2. Did not see improvement in rookies Fox and Lindgren last season from the beginning to the end, and further improvement this season?

 

[Tawnos]

I completely disagree. The tire fire may have seemed to diminish but it coincides with Shesty playing like a Vezina candidate. If I remember right we were still giving high quality scoring chances at Ruff rates.

I am weary of leaning on analytics for the offense because it does not pass the eye test. We dump/chip and chase predominantly. When we do get offensive zone time, everything is to the perimeter, with extremely rare presence in the middle of the ice. I disagree, in that not going to the middle of the ice is a structure/coaching problem. Quinn can say whatever he wants but there's an issue here with how its being implemented. All the players are getting it wrong and Quinn is right? or is it a communication/coaching issue?

We are decent at keeping possession but I have a hard time believing we lead the league in high danger chances. I'd like to see the source and how it's calculated. I'd argue that most of our shots are low-quality. Our offense is the example I'd give on why not to solely trust analytics. Our neutral zone game has improved significantly, along with the defense which in turn helps possession stats. Dont get me wrong, our finishing could be better, especially with Zibs doing a 180... I just don't think that's the main problem.

For the most part we play a 'Neanderthal simple' north south game. is that style predicated to this rosters strength? Can we carry the puck out? or into zone entry? Is it because of our Centers? Panarin sort of refutes that. I feel our system is not conducive to modern day NHL. It's Torts-era hockey but we have a high skill roster. I just don't get it.

Our positioning/spacing/puck support can be really, really bad some games, as if there's no structure to follow. Or is it by design? Forwards cheating for better positioning for the upcoming dump/chip? We see it way too often, someone has the puck and that puck carrier has literally ZERO options/outlets. Absolutely no where to go with the puck, where it typically ends in a turnover, a 'hope pass' or a dump/chip. It happen in every zone and I'm not a fan of just conceding possession at the rate we do. All of the inconsistencies and issues in the offense is why I do not think Quinn is a good coach and why I do not credit him for the defensive turnaround. He may be decent at player development but he's terrible at implementing/coaching the team.

Dont get me started on the PP. How do paid professionals think this is the 'optimal' setup with this roster? Oliver is 'in charge' of the PP but why is Quinn not changing the obvious things? Because I've come to realize, Quinn struggles with the obvious and/or over thinks it.

So, when we put it all together, I see major issues in everything but our defense. I give credit, predominantly, to Martin for that transformation. Hopefully Quinn proves me wrong, because that would mean the team is succeeding.

Regarding the numbers, it does depend which model you're looking at. I was looking at hockey-reference, but Natural Stat Trick puts us more in the middle of the pack. Natural Stat Trick has a LOT more counted as high danger for everyone. I think the idea that we're doing fine on high danger chances is right though. Not every game... but I definitely think the Rangers have been the better team in at least 4 of their 7 regular losses this season. Though, 3 of those were in the earlier part of the season and not on this recent losing streak. It's a little bit of an illusion that we haven't been good offensively outside of conversion. It's easy to forget about a good scoring chance almost immediately after it happens without a goal. It's also easy to forget that we had a good amount of them in a game where they didn't convert much. This last stretch was tough, because some games they were getting plenty of chances and not converting, and others they weren't getting them. But before those 4 games, they were doing well. I chalk up the poor performance of the losing streak more to frustration and lack of confidence than anything.

I agree that our positioning/spacing/puck support isn't good some games, but when I see that I know it's not the team executing the game plan. Why do I say that? Because there have been PLENTY of games this season, some last season particularly in one stretch of hockey, and a few the season before where they're all over the puck with lots of great support and positioning in the offensive zone (like, say, yesterday). That's the system executed how it should be. Lots of support in the offensive zone, with a high forward or a defenseman taking away the walls, forcing the defender to put the puck into a bad spot.

How do paid professionals think this is the optimal setup with this roster? Because it was the best powerplay in the league for a long stretch of last season... with the same exact setup. They've already seen it work. Is it taking more time to shift based on it not working this year than it should? Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think it's possible to be both understanding of why it's happening and critical of the time it's taking to change it.

 

[Tawnos]

Where I will knock Quinn is the line combos. I don't understand his stubbornness with the the Kreider-Zib-Buch line. Sure they had some success and chemistry last season that they have not duplicated this one. But when he does break them up and there aren't immediate positive result, he quickly retreats and switches them back. I understand the hesitation to play Panarin andZib together, but it was nice to see it yesterday.

As far as the defense is concerned, from what I have seen the system being played this year is pretty similar to the one last year, just there is more comfort and familiarity to it and the guys who are executing it have a year's more experience.

I do think there are some things in the system that are slightly different. The sticks in lanes is the big one. That's too much different to be simply an improvement in execution. Plus, sticks in lanes is like the only thing Staal is still good at.

But I just go back to the same thing: there's an enormous difference in the quality of the minutes being put in by guys, both because they're better and the personnel is better. Lindgren and Fox are both better. Miller is already better than Skjei was for us last year. Hajek/Bitetto/Smith are better defensively thus far than Staal and DeAngelo.

 

[True Blue]

Let's put it this way, you can remove Brown, Oliver, or Quinn and the defense would still function the same. If you removed Martin, it would eventually fall back apart. It's like one of those truck stuck in the snow plank of wood for traction situations. Quinn and his assistants are pushing from behind but without Jacque "The Plan" Martin, it'd never get anywhere. I refuse to give credit to the fry cook for the Colonel's chicken with his secret blend of 11 herbs and spices.

What did Martin have to do with the defense the second half of last year?

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

What did Martin have to do with the defense the second half of last year?

He was creating the Colonel's recipe. Or making fries. I guess.

 

[True Blue]

He was creating the Colonel's recipe. Or making fries. I guess.

Well he is French Canadian. So maybe he sent poutine over.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Well he is French Canadian. So maybe he sent poutine over.

Or getting wood.

 

[True Blue]

Or getting wood.

There is that

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

I do think there are some things in the system that are slightly different. The sticks in lanes is the big one. That's too much different to be simply an improvement in execution. Plus, sticks in lanes is like the only thing Staal is still good at.

But I just go back to the same thing: there's an enormous difference in the quality of the minutes being put in by guys, both because they're better and the personnel is better. Lindgren and Fox are both better. Miller is already better than Skjei was for us last year. Hajek/Bitetto/Smith are better defensively thus far than Staal and DeAngelo.

Sure. I said it looked very similar to last years system, not identical. And, by and large, the personnel on the blue line is better than last year.

 

[duhmetreE]

What did Martin have to do with the defense the second half of last year?

Shesterkin playing like a Vezina does not mean the defense was good. We were still giving up a lot of shot and opportunities.

The turn around coincides with Shesterkin being called up and Panarin and Zibs catching fire.

 

[duhmetreE]

Regarding the numbers, it does depend which model you're looking at. I was looking at hockey-reference, but Natural Stat Trick puts us more in the middle of the pack. Natural Stat Trick has a LOT more counted as high danger for everyone. I think the idea that we're doing fine on high danger chances is right though. Not every game... but I definitely think the Rangers have been the better team in at least 4 of their 7 regular losses this season. Though, 3 of those were in the earlier part of the season and not on this recent losing streak. It's a little bit of an illusion that we haven't been good offensively outside of conversion. It's easy to forget about a good scoring chance almost immediately after it happens without a goal. It's also easy to forget that we had a good amount of them in a game where they didn't convert much. This last stretch was tough, because some games they were getting plenty of chances and not converting, and others they weren't getting them. But before those 4 games, they were doing well. I chalk up the poor performance of the losing streak more to frustration and lack of confidence than anything.

I agree that our positioning/spacing/puck support isn't good some games, but when I see that I know it's not the team executing the game plan. Why do I say that? Because there have been PLENTY of games this season, some last season particularly in one stretch of hockey, and a few the season before where they're all over the puck with lots of great support and positioning in the offensive zone (like, say, yesterday). That's the system executed how it should be. Lots of support in the offensive zone, with a high forward or a defenseman taking away the walls, forcing the defender to put the puck into a bad spot.

How do paid professionals think this is the optimal setup with this roster? Because it was the best powerplay in the league for a long stretch of last season... with the same exact setup. They've already seen it work. Is it taking more time to shift based on it not working this year than it should? Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think it's possible to be both understanding of why it's happening and critical of the time it's taking to change it.

Thats the point.

If a team can't execute consistently, maybe... just maybe they are being poorly coached. If strutcure/system was properly implemented, there would be a lot more consistency.

Now see our defense this year. We are consistent. Yes, we will have some bad games/bad periods but we have, for the most part, been good all year. That's the difference between good and suspect coaching imo.

The PP setup is different as well. They were setting up Zibs and Panrin for more shots; utilizing Kreider in front. Now, no one is position to shoot and they pass it around. Zibs flubs a lot but the optionality has not been there for the amount of weapons we have