Dave Tippett Discussion - The Off-Season Edition

[Mosby]

We tied the league lead for rookies last season with 5 - Domi, Duclair, Dahlbeck, Domingue, Martinook. I think we'll start this year with 1, maybe 2: Strome and Dvorak. By season's end, that number could grow to 4 with Perlini and Samuelsson.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Wait, what? Isn't that the whole Tippett thing -- his rosters punch above their weight class?

That's his reputation. I don't quite believe it's fully warranted, to be honest. It's just my opinion, but the reason why Tippett's Coyotes teams did so well at the start was that they were built to trap. Aucoin and Whitney, along with Smitty's outlier of an awesome season, were the big keys to our 2012 run.

The post-2012 annual losing streaks are why I think Tippett is not the Plucky Underdog Whisperer. I think he's a good coach, but I don't think he's a great or legendary one. If Chayka and he can put together a solid roster, I think they'll get solid results, but I don't believe Tippett can push them to a level above their weight class.

I think you're confusing talent with some sort of epiphany. He just flat out hasn't had the talent in the past.

Tip adjust his tactics to what he believes the roster talent is. I think the controversy is his ability to evaluate roster talent - some believe he's too conservative in his assessments, others say that he's too enamored with the type of player he himself was (which is typical of most ex-player coaches).

The problem with the NHL in general is that the league is so incredibly subjective. It's nearly impossible - even with analytics - to have an objective appraisal of anyone. It's why Jack Adams winners can get fired less than six months later, and why OEL will never win a Norris as a Coyote. Tippett is a hero in 2012, and a whipping boy in 2016. If we make the playoffs this year, he goes back to being a hero. That's the way the puck slides.

 

[KG]

An erudite analysis rarely seen on forum 40

 

[Bonsai Tree]

We tied the league lead for rookies last season with 5 - Domi, Duclair, Dahlbeck, Domingue, Martinook. I think we'll start this year with 1, maybe 2: Strome and Dvorak. By season's end, that number could grow to 4 with Perlini and Samuelsson.

Strome, Dvorak, MacInnis, Perlini, and DeAngelo all need to be established on the team this year. Next year we get Chychrun, Keller, and maybe Fischer.

Once we are a playoff team, we won't be able to take the chance with more than 1 or 2 rookies, because the 3-6 games that might move from the win column to the loss column would be too expensive. This year, however, we can afford to lose those extra 3-6 games in order to season the young players.

 

[RemoAZ]

Strome, Dvorak, MacInnis, Perlini, and DeAngelo all need to be established on the team this year. Next year we get Chychrun, Keller, and maybe Fischer.

Once we are a playoff team, we won't be able to take the chance with more than 1 or 2 rookies, because the 3-6 games that might move from the win column to the loss column would be too expensive. This year, however, we can afford to lose those extra 3-6 games in order to season the young players.

I think you are now my favorite poster!

 

[RemoAZ]

An erudite analysis rarely seen on forum 40

I had to look that up. I thought Erudites were only an EverQuest race. Didn't realize that was an actual term for intelligence. First time I ever saw the word used since I was addicted to EverQuest many moons ago.

 

[cobra427]

Evaluating a coach comes down to expectations based on the roster and injuries for that year. The Ribs year is the only year under Tip that the team was under realistic expectations (include injuries/56 point season). Other than the Ribs year, Tip has met or exceeded realistic expectations.

Just adding Gogo this year increases expectations. Last year was 78 points, so we should have a higher expected point total. We have to wait and see what players might be added, but today, I would think 85-90 points would be reasonable.

The same guys that don't like Tip, won't like him no matter what, he can do nothing right. Last year we played the most rookies in the NHL and beat expectations. It didn't change anyone's mind that disliked Tip.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

I think you are now my favorite poster!

I have some real estate in Brooklyn for sale. Waterfront. If you think that I know the slightest bit about what I am talking about that's one of us!

 

[RemoAZ]

Evaluating a coach comes down to expectations based on the roster and injuries for that year. The Ribs year is the only year under Tip that the team was under realistic expectations (include injuries/56 point season). Other than the Ribs year, Tip has met or exceeded realistic expectations.

Just adding Gogo this year increases expectations. Last year was 78 points, so we should have a higher expected point total. We have to wait and see what players might be added, but today, I would think 85-90 points would be reasonable.

The same guys that don't like Tip, won't like him no matter what, he can do nothing right. Last year we played the most rookies in the NHL and beat expectations. It didn't change anyone's mind that disliked Tip.

Geeze I said I was optimistic. Baby steps...

 

[Mosby]

Strome, Dvorak, MacInnis, Perlini, and DeAngelo all need to be established on the team this year. Next year we get Chychrun, Keller, and maybe Fischer.

Once we are a playoff team, we won't be able to take the chance with more than 1 or 2 rookies, because the 3-6 games that might move from the win column to the loss column would be too expensive. This year, however, we can afford to lose those extra 3-6 games in order to season the young players.

I think Keller is more of a long-term project, particularly if he goes the BU route.

 

[Jakey53]

No reason to be sorry. I'm actually feeling pretty optimistic with the off season moves so far. I think there's a real chance Tippett has modernized his thinking a bit. I bet he watched a lot of tape evaluating last season and the more he saw our young guys playing, the better he has to feel about the direction they're leading us. We'll see soon enough.

DT's thinking is still the same today as it was last year. Your system, game plan or whatever you want to call will depend on the TALENT you have to work with.

 

[Jakey53]

I think you're confusing talent with some sort of epiphany. He just flat out hasn't had the talent in the past.

Edit: I'm sorry for me, these threads are like a damn train wreck I keep coming back to. A train wreck of unsubstantiated, contradictory and unwarranted blame.

Exactly, but this is so hard for some to understand.

 

[Jakey53]

Look at the difference between Turris and Domi. Domi embraced going back to Jr's and spoke positively of the decision. Employers often test ones metal. Punk az whiner's need not apply.

There is just so much we don't know as fans as well.

Isn't that the truth.

Why? Really, why? This season isn't about making the playoffs, or being a competitive team. This season is about maturing our young players for an extended playoff run for the next 6 to 10 seasons. I want to see another 4 or 5 rookies this year. Then, starting next year, just one or two a year.

I agree, but I don't think we will see 5 rookies this year, and I'm not sure if we have 5 that are ready.

 

[Jakey53]

Strome, Dvorak, MacInnis, Perlini, and DeAngelo all need to be established on the team this year. Next year we get Chychrun, Keller, and maybe Fischer.

Once we are a playoff team, we won't be able to take the chance with more than 1 or 2 rookies, because the 3-6 games that might move from the win column to the loss column would be too expensive. This year, however, we can afford to lose those extra 3-6 games in order to season the young players.

You forgot HS. I think MacInnis and Keller are two and three years away, but it would be nice to see a surprise rookie like Martinook each of the next two years. MacInnis had a good training camp last year followed by a great junior year, so maybe he might surprise, or maybe Chychrun.

 

[rt]

I think Strome gets a full season. Dvorak should get the call-up for any LW or C needs throughout the year, eventually accounting for maybe a half season worth of games. Samuelsson should be the RW call-up and get quite a few games that way. DeAngelo should be the first D called up and end up with around half a season worth of games, like Dvorak. Hopefully the season after, each of those three are full-time NHLers for us. And then it's Perlini, MacInnis, Fischer, and Wood who take over as the favored call-ups.

 

[RemoAZ]

DT's thinking is still the same today as it was last year. Your system, game plan or whatever you want to call will depend on the TALENT you have to work with.

I believe a big factor is how much you are willing to work with your talent. Not everyone is plug and play. That's a big part of our differing opinions. And that's all they are; opinions. Nobody is right or wrong. The arguments might be the "same old" ones but I am starting to see a possible shifting in approach or philosophy or whatever you want to call it and I hope it continues. Your opinion is he didn't have any talent before. I believe the talent was not developed properly for a long time here. But again, that's the past. I'm looking forward to and hoping for a much different and improved future.

Trying to be positive here. [MOD] How about focusing on the future?

 

[Jakey53]

I think Strome gets a full season. Dvorak should get the call-up for any LW or C needs throughout the year, eventually accounting for maybe a half season worth of games. Samuelsson should be the RW call-up and get quite a few games that way. DeAngelo should be the first D called up and end up with around half a season worth of games, like Dvorak. Hopefully the season after, each of those three are full-time NHLers for us. And then it's Perlini, MacInnis, Fischer, and Wood who take over as the favored call-ups.

Fischer? That is kind of the way I see it shake out, but I would like 2 rookies getting a full season.

 

[RemoAZ]

I think Strome gets a full season. Dvorak should get the call-up for any LW or C needs throughout the year, eventually accounting for maybe a half season worth of games. Samuelsson should be the RW call-up and get quite a few games that way. DeAngelo should be the first D called up and end up with around half a season worth of games, like Dvorak. Hopefully the season after, each of those three are full-time NHLers for us. And then it's Perlini, MacInnis and Wood who take over as the favored call-ups.

If I'm not mistaken we've seen positive reviews for both Perlini and Sam in the past from the coaching staff during camp. Sam got derailed by injuries and Perlini probably by his own disappointment for not making the team and an injury. They both had shots to make the club in the past. Another year of maturity to already NHL caliber bodies along with now knowing what to expect from camp might give them an inside track to cracking the roster this season.

 

[Jakey53]

I believe a big factor is how much you are willing to work with your talent. Not everyone is plug and play. That's a big part of our differing opinions. And that's all they are; opinions. Nobody is right or wrong. The arguments might be the "same old" ones but I am starting to see a possible shifting in approach or philosophy or whatever you want to call it and I hope it continues. Your opinion is he didn't have any talent before. I believe the talent was not developed properly for a long time here. But again, that's the past. I'm looking forward to and hoping for a much different and improved future.

Trying to be positive here. [MOD] How about focusing on the future?

I have always focused on the future regarding this team AND ownership, [MOD]

As far as talent development goes, I don't think we had much talent to develop. Just look at our scouting over the years, hell, we didn't have enough scouts to cover areas that other team did, which resulted in not finding more talent. This ownership, FO, scouts and coaches have done a fantastic job the last two years, and I believe the future is very bright.

 

[hbk]

The main goal to add to D corps so we could properly slot guys on left side has been accomplished.

If we are going to run with 2-3 rookies this year after inserting upwards of 4 rookies full time last year the roster could only get cheaper.

Barring a trade of futures/prospects for high priced vet there is and was very little chance we would significantly add to payroll/cap. That's how a rebuild/youth movement works.

 

[Jakey53]

The main goal to add to D corps so we could properly slot guys on left side has been accomplished.

If we are going to run with 2-3 rookies this year after inserting upwards of 4 rookies full time last year the roster could only get cheaper.

Barring a trade of futures/prospects for high priced vet there is and was very little chance we would significantly add to payroll/cap. That's how a rebuild/youth movement works.

Yup. I payroll is going to skyrocket in three years.

 

[RemoAZ]

I have always focused on the future regarding this team AND ownership, [MOD]

As far as talent development goes, I don't think we had much talent to develop. Just look at our scouting over the years, hell, we didn't have enough scouts to cover areas that other team did, which resulted in not finding more talent. This ownership, FO, scouts and coaches have done a fantastic job the last two years, and I believe the future is very bright.

I'll never be a fanboy that likes everything the organization does. [MOD] I like that Domi and Duclair made the club and got to play but I didn't like that they were split up so much when it was obvious to me they and the club were much better with them together. I don't think you have to love everything the team does to be a real fan just as I don't think you have to go to games when you don't like the direction of the team. That's just me but I respect different opinions. Differing opinions is what makes coming here interesting especially since there are so few hockey fans (in and around my life anyway) to talk Yotes with.

 

[cobra427]

DT's thinking is still the same today as it was last year. Your system, game plan or whatever you want to call will depend on the TALENT you have to work with.

I agree, and don't think Tip's thinking or game plan has changed. The game has evolved and puck movers on D are much more important then 5 years ago with bigger D like Dmo/Klesla/Rozy. We have more dynamic forwards now in Domi/Duclair, but it still starts with possession, solid D, and good goal tending. The basic system is exactly the same, so is the coach, we just have more talent up front now.

 

[Ebb]

Why? Really, why? This season isn't about making the playoffs, or being a competitive team. This season is about maturing our young players for an extended playoff run for the next 6 to 10 seasons. I want to see another 4 or 5 rookies this year. Then, starting next year, just one or two a year.

Two rookies a season is aplenty for me (I also don't personally think we have 5 ready for NHL duty), but we still need offensive players. Many of the slots I mentioned can eventually be filled by youngsters, but we need at least one proven scorer/playmaker to help out the ones developing.

For example, Martinook. We've been playing him on the 3rd with Richardson and Doan (and he may end up on the 4th this season--although I hope not). While that line has done well, imagine if we played Martinook with a proven scorer/playmaker, he would most likely improve quite a bit.

The same can potentially be applied to Strome, Dvorak, and Perlini. They will be a helluva lot more successful if we had a proven scorer to help them transition better to the NHL level.

Going back to my last post the #1 and #2 Center could eventually be Strome & Dvorak. The #2 LW could potentially be Perlini. Murphy is probably a solid #2 RD in terms of skill (or should be this season). That leaves the elusive #1 RW and #1 RD as the main slots to fill in the next few seasons. So, I guess I'd settle for a versatile #2 RW (with upside) this season that we can move up and down the lineup as the young players develop; I know, it's probably asking too much...

 

[hbk]

I wonder how much smoke there is on NYR / Coyote trade discussions. How desperate are Rangers to move Rick Nash?