Speculation: Dan Bylsma Hot Seat Pt. II

[IcedCapp]

They've seen it during games? Really? Please tell me how MAF is a superior goalie to TV in every way. As far as I can see, TV is better than stopping the puck and playing the puck. Fleury might look cooler when he makes saves, but that's about it.

I think the supporting of Fleury is twofold. 1.) They genuinely like the guy and he has been with this team longer than everyone other than Orpik and 2.) Saying he sucks to the media doesn't help anybody.

The Penguins are a bunch of friends. Sid and Geno? Best friends. MAF? Friend! Kris Letang? Little brother. They all love each other so ****ing much that they just don't have it in them to ever get really pissed at anyone.

"We have the two best players in the world, and we really like each other, I'm not sure why they don't just give us Cups at beginning of season!"

 

[Shady Machine]

I played hockey at various levels for about 15 years. When I was playing, we always knew who our best goalie was... and not just the forwards; the defencemen knew better than anyone. Even when we were really young, (7-8 years old) it's automatic that you know who your best goalie is. Coaches know it, and the players on the team know it.

Like I said, I'm not arguing for MAF one way or another. The guy has big-time meltdowns, in big-time games. The skaters on the team don't know why this happens to him. All they do know, is that he is a better goaltender than TV. They see and experience it almost everyday for 8 months of the year. Everyday fans only watch the games. They see the meltdowns that Fleury has, and say he's a s**tty goaltender. They're not seeing what the players and coaches see day in and day out.

I guess I'm just trying to give an inside perspective to people who have never played the game, if they're wondering why everyone on the team is still standing up for MAF.

You're just making **** up. How do YOU know how the players feel about the 2 goalies. I have played hockey for 20 years. Does that make my uneducated opinion on what the players think about Fleury or TV any more valid than yours? The proof is in the pudding and Fleury sucked AGAIN while TV played lights out when it mattered. So either our players are delusional or you are.

 

[Giant Yankee Pens]

They've seen it during games? Really? Please tell me how MAF is a superior goalie to TV in every way. As far as I can see, TV is better than stopping the puck and playing the puck. Fleury might look cooler when he makes saves, but that's about it.

I think the supporting of Fleury is twofold. 1.) They genuinely like the guy and he has been with this team longer than everyone other than Orpik and 2.) Saying he sucks to the media doesn't help anybody.

Not to barge in on your twos argument, but, SM does have a point. MAF has quicker reflexes, flexibility, ability to steal a game, glove hand, post to post coverage... the list is actually greater, but those are all that come to mind now... the point is (i think) that SM is trying to make, is that MAF has more talent then TV to be the better goalie. TV however has played better in games (particularly the big games and most recent games). I'm not blaming the coaches per se, but I'd love to give flower one more chance with a new goalie and new head coach and see if he could turn that talent into actual on ice performance. If not, TV can bail us out again in the playoffs. Just my two cents.

 

[Shady Machine]

Not to barge in on your twos argument, but, SM does have a point. MAF has quicker reflexes, flexibility, ability to steal a game, glove hand, post to post coverage... the list is actually greater, but those are all that come to mind now... the point is (i think) that SM is trying to make, is that MAF has more talent then TV to be the better goalie. TV however has played better in games (particularly the big games and most recent games). I'm not blaming the coaches per se, but I'd love to give flower one more chance with a new goalie and new head coach and see if he could turn that talent into actual on ice performance. If not, TV can bail us out again in the playoffs. Just my two cents.

Yeah that's a reasonable opinion for sure. He does have quicker reflexes and flexibility. He also has poor positioning and has to rely on those reflexes more than Vokoun does. That said, Fleury has had 9 NHL seasons to work on that. How much more time are the Pens willing to give? Also, if the cap wasn't going down then I'd be more inclined to give him another shot. We will likely have to lose a valuable player to keep Fleury around. That may mean not signing Dupuis or Cooke, or trading Orpik, etc. Personally, I've seen enough of him in the burgh.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

McGuire said yesterday that Shero backs Bylsma as his coach. McGuire stopped short of saying Bylsma would DEFINITELY be back, though, hinting that if there's a change it would have to come from 'upper management'.

So basically, it sounds like Shero is going to go down with his man behind the bench.

I completely HATE the situation we're in.

 

[Giant Yankee Pens]

Yeah that's a reasonable opinion for sure. He does have quicker reflexes and flexibility. He also has poor positioning and has to rely on those reflexes more than Vokoun does. That said, Fleury has had 9 NHL seasons to work on that. How much more time are the Pens willing to give? Also, if the cap wasn't going down then I'd be more inclined to give him another shot. We will likely have to lose a valuable player to keep Fleury around. That may mean not signing Dupuis or Cooke, or trading Orpik, etc. Personally, I've seen enough of him in the burgh.

True, I'm fine if they let him go, and I'm fine if they keep him. One thing is for sure though. They need to at least let one (if not both of) him go and/or BYLSMA GO. I'd rather change the coach and keep the talent then ditch the talent and keep the coach. Not that I blame DB entirely, (the Bruins and Rask played outstanding), but I think a coaching change helps this team more than a full blown shake up. We had all the right pieces, just didn't put it all together for another 4 wins. Coach should go imo.

 

[Shady Machine]

True, I'm fine if they let him go, and I'm fine if they keep him. One thing is for sure though. They need to at least let one (if not both of) him go and/or BYLSMA GO. I'd rather change the coach and keep the talent then ditch the talent and keep the coach. Not that I blame DB entirely, (the Bruins and Rask played outstanding), but I think a coaching change helps this team more than a full blown shake up. We had all the right pieces, just didn't put it all together for another 4 wins. Coach should go imo.

I'd personally like to see both go, but I agree overall.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

They both have to go. Whatever your feelings are about Fleury, he's still a $5 million drag on the salary cap. For $5 million, we need a no-questions-asked 60-game starter that for sure will play in the postseason...not a talented enigma who may or may not be great, may or may not look like the worst goalie in the league.

If all this talk about Bylsma staying is true, and I won't believe it until I hear it from the powers that be, then one of two things MUST happen:

a) Shero takes away Bylsma's toys (no more Fleury, no more Adams, Dupuis).

b) 'upper management' cleans house.

I'm sorry but it's come to that. Inertia is the last thing this franchise needs right now.

 

[brewski420]

I played hockey at various levels for about 15 years. When I was playing, we always knew who our best goalie was... and not just the forwards; the defencemen knew better than anyone. Even when we were really young, (7-8 years old) it's automatic that you know who your best goalie is. Coaches know it, and the players on the team know it.

Like I said, I'm not arguing for MAF one way or another. The guy has big-time meltdowns, in big-time games. The skaters on the team don't know why this happens to him. All they do know, is that he is a better goaltender than TV. They see and experience it almost everyday for 8 months of the year. Everyday fans only watch the games. They see the meltdowns that Fleury has, and say he's a s**tty goaltender. They're not seeing what the players and coaches see day in and day out.

I guess I'm just trying to give an inside perspective to people who have never played the game, if they're wondering why everyone on the team is still standing up for MAF.

Is that you DB?

My guess is that the vast majority of people on this board have played some sort of organized sport for a portion of their life so I guess we all have the same "inside perspective" as you. But I doubt many would come to this conclusion that you somehow have. We all know that some are great practice people, some are great regular season people and some come up big when it really matters. It does not matter if someone who is my best friend falls in either of the former categories, everyone knows where they stand for the most part. The past two years there should be no question in anyone's mind about MAF.

 

[Shady Machine]

They both have to go. Whatever your feelings are about Fleury, he's still a $5 million drag on the salary cap. For $5 million, we need a no-questions-asked 60-game starter that for sure will play in the postseason...not a talented enigma who may or may not be great, may or may not look like the worst goalie in the league.

If all this talk about Bylsma staying is true, and I won't believe it until I hear it from the powers that be, then one of two things MUST happen:

a) Shero takes away Bylsma's toys (no more Fleury, no more Adams, Dupuis).

b) 'upper management' cleans house.

I'm sorry but it's come to that. Inertia is the last thing this franchise needs right now.

Yup I agree. His toys that need to go should also include Rierden and Granato.

 

[KIRK]

the longer it goes, the more likely it is that Bylsma is staying.

And perhaps Shero is trying to quietly get the lay of the coaching land before making a decision. Maybe he wants to fire Bylsma, but if there's no one better available, he won't make the move just to make it. Maybe he wants to see what happens with Tippett. Maybe he's trying to wait the Rangers out so that Bylsma doesn't go to a division rival. Lots of reasons for quiet and patience right now. Won't get antsy until Wednesday.

Or, CV could be right. Monday, organizational meetings. Tuesday, word leaks that coach is fired. Wednesday, Shero speaks/confirms. Not sure that length tells anything either way.

Here's an added thought: If Bylsma is retained, then Shero effectively has told ownership that he's 'all in' with Bylsma. IMO, if it blows up, then it's not necessarily Bylsma who only would be gone. If Bylsma is not retained, then Shero buys himself a little time. Not suggesting that it will or should influence the decision, but Shero's jumping right onto the hot seat with Bylsma if there's no coaching change.

McGuire said yesterday that Shero backs Bylsma as his coach. McGuire stopped short of saying Bylsma would DEFINITELY be back, though, hinting that if there's a change it would have to come from 'upper management'.

So basically, it sounds like Shero is going to go down with his man behind the bench.

I completely HATE the situation we're in.

Make no mistake, if that happens, Shero will have tied his fate 100% to Bylsma.

 

[KIRK]

to be fair, KIRK and I would guide the Pens to an undefeated record until we killed each other.

Which would be sometime during the first shift of the first practice.

 

[KIRK]

Scary, but more likely than Tippett IMO.

Maurice is starting to intrigue me more as I think about this and the liklihood that certain other candidates just wouldn't fit or won't leave (Torts and Tippett, respectively).

Leaves Ruff, Maurice, a few others. Pretty sure we don't want Ruff. Guy is notorious for his line juggling. Definitely harder on players when the F up though and that's a good thing.

Not entirely sure about Maurice. Part is not knowing. Part is reading some stuff about his warts. Then again, as some have noted, it took him about three games to be so sick of Malkin playing Bylsma hockey (cheating up ice, no defense) that he benched him for a period.

You know, ANY replacement is going to have warts. It's just the way it works.

Side question: Anyone else find it odd that with all of the players accepting blame for the defeat, the one person in the entire organization who would not deign to say 'I could have done better' is Bylsma? IMO, that's all you need to know about why he needs to go.

IIRC one of the complaints about Maurice was how he handles young players. I remember reading an an interview he did after he came back from Russia, and he talked about how coaching there changed his perspective about some things. I wonder if being forced by KHL rules to play at least one rookie changed his perspective on that, too.

At least we know he's not afraid to hold his players accountable, and that he's not afraid to change up lines if they're not working.

Here's the interview: http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs...l_maurice_talks_about_his_time_in_russia.html. Some tidbits . . .

Nik (Kulemin) was a player with that team before, and Magnitogorsk, that’s his hometown. He came and worked out with us for a bit, and this was two and a half months before (the NHL lockout ended), but boy, did he work hard, it was great to see. And Malkin, he practiced harder than anyone. The best of the best push themselves harder than anyone, so it was something to see for everyone there

But probably the biggest thing I walked away with is a blanket apology to every Russian player I ever coached. When they come to Canada and play the way they do, there’s a reason for it. Things sometimes get said about them, like they’re not tough, but I can tell you there are tough players over there. They just play the game so differently. We expect them to make adjustments in a couple of weeks when they get here, you want them to tip the puck in and chase it, and you want them to do this and go there, and then you think they don’t want to play your game. It’s not like that at all, and you’d have to be there to see where they come from and the culture and the hockey. So a blanket apology … I have a better understanding of their world, how they train, how they play, and why they play the way they do

 

[KIRK]

If I'm Shero, I'm holding onto Bylsma unless there is a better candidate out there to coach the Pens. That said, the only candidate better than Bylsma at this point would be Tippett.

If you fire Bylsma now, you run the risk of settling for someone if you don't get your guy. Tippett won't be available until at least June 30th. Ruff and AV will probably be gone by then. I don't really want Ruff here.

I'm a guy who has criticized Bylsma a lot and I truly believe his stubborness, belief that his strategy > adjustments to the other team, and terrible decisions regarding personnel such as Iginla led to the downfall of the Pens this year.

There is one circumstance where I'd be fine with Bylsma staying. Shero tells Bylsma there has to be accountability for what happened and the poor decisions that led to the outcome this year. Shero tells Bylsma he has to fire Granato and Rierdan. They are replaced with a bad cop that won't be afraid to tell Bylsma off and say what he thinks: Rick Tocchet and also have a guy on the bench that is a strategy wizard and has the respect of Malkin: Dave King.

If Bylsma still doesn't get it and the Pens are in disarray, you have two guys more than qualified to take over the team.

What makes a candidate better? Generally speaking, I get that Tippett probably is the only better possible option. But, this is a specific situation. In much the same way that Bylsma was the perfect choice to replace Therrien despite his complete inexperience, a guy who brings structure and discipline to the table is the perfect option to replace Bylsma at this specific moment. It's really why you've got the adage 'coaches are hired to be fired', because you can take a snap shot of a team and say 'this guy is perfect' and then take a snap shot three or four years later and say 'anyone would be better' and visa versa.

 

[IcedCapp]

Which would be sometime during the first shift of the first practice.

our legacy would be the lines we left behind

 

[IcedCapp]

Here's an added thought: If Bylsma is retained, then Shero effectively has told ownership that he's 'all in' with Bylsma. IMO, if it blows up, then it's not necessarily Bylsma who only would be gone.

If Shero goes to bat for Disco, he is all in with him, and they should share the same fate.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

What makes a candidate better? Generally speaking, I get that Tippett probably is the only better possible option. But, this is a specific situation. In much the same way that Bylsma was the perfect choice to replace Therrien despite his complete inexperience, a guy who brings structure and discipline to the table is the perfect option to replace Bylsma at this specific moment. It's really why you've got the adage 'coaches are hired to be fired', because you can take a snap shot of a team and say 'this guy is perfect' and then take a snap shot three or four years later and say 'anyone would be better' and visa versa.

Personally, I'd rather not go the recycled coach route. A guy like Ron Francis would be my first choice. Ulf Samuelsson. Rick Tocchet. Any two of those behind our bench would be great, one as an associate coach. Then maybe a technical guy like Dave King as an assistant. And I'd love to hire Paul Coffey to work with the PP.

I have no idea who would be the right guy to be the goalie coach, but somebody with a new voice wouldn't be bad. But if Vokoun likes Meloche then keep him. Who cares about Fleury at this point.

I think someone who reminds our players what it means to play for the Penguins, what it means to WIN in Pittsburgh, would be fantastic at this time.

 

[Dutchess]

As a non-Pens fan, let me tell you guys that it could be worse. Much, much worse. Just my objective two cents: Bylsma goes. Mario will want change at the top and go from there.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

If Shero goes to bat for Disco, he is all in with him, and they should share the same fate.

Agreed.

 

[KIRK]

our legacy would be the lines we left behind

And our replacements, Cole and MTL, would reap the glory.

 

[KIRK]

If Shero goes to bat for Disco, he is all in with him, and they should share the same fate.

A point that I hope ownership will make abundantly clear. Then again, I hoped the same thing last year, so . . .

 

[KIRK]

Personally, I'd rather not go the recycled coach route. A guy like Ron Francis would be my first choice. Ulf Samuelsson. Rick Tocchet. Any two of those behind our bench would be great, one as an associate coach. Then maybe a technical guy like Dave King as an assistant. And I'd love to hire Paul Coffey to work with the PP.

I have no idea who would be the right guy to be the goalie coach, but somebody with a new voice wouldn't be bad. But if Vokoun likes Meloche then keep him. Who cares about Fleury at this point.

I think someone who reminds our players what it means to play for the Penguins, what it means to WIN in Pittsburgh, would be fantastic at this time.

I'm fairly certain that Francis wants to be a GM not a coach. From Pierre Lebrun earlier this year speaking about assistant GM's ready to be GM's: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/22084/assistant-gms-ready-to-take-next-step. Here's his comment about Francis:

I didn't mention Hall of Famer Ron Francis because, well, he's not going anywhere. He'll be GM in Carolina once veteran Jim Rutherford feels like kicking himself upstairs.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I'm fairly certain that Francis wants to be a GM not a coach. From Pierre Lebrun earlier this year speaking about assistant GM's ready to be GM's: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/22084/assistant-gms-ready-to-take-next-step. Here's his comment about Francis:

I didn't mention Hall of Famer Ron Francis because, well, he's not going anywhere. He'll be GM in Carolina once veteran Jim Rutherford feels like kicking himself upstairs.

I know. However, it's not unprecedented to see a guy being groomed as a GM somewhere reverse course. Guy Carbonneau was being groomed to be Bob Gainey's heir apparent as Dallas GM a while back. Then, he became head coach in Montreal instead. At that time, it seemed quite unlikely that Carbonneau would leave Dallas (he's Brenden Morrow's father-in-law). And yet he took the challenge.

I'd definitely ask to speak to Francis to be sure he doesn't want it.

 

[KIRK]

I know. However, it's not unprecedented to see a guy being groomed as a GM somewhere reverse course. Guy Carbonneau was being groomed to be Bob Gainey's heir apparent as Dallas GM a while back. Then, he became head coach in Montreal instead. At that time, it seemed quite unlikely that Carbonneau would leave Dallas (he's Brenden Morrow's father-in-law). And yet he took the challenge.

I'd definitely ask to speak to Francis to be sure he doesn't want it.

Sure, I'd just think he's a lot less likely than the unlikely Tippett.

It's a tough spot. Anyone is going to have warts. Wouldn't mind seeing Tippett if he gets the old cup band back together . . . Ulfie and Tocchett as assistants, along with Dave King involved in some capacity.

 

[sexyllama]

(Yes, that was a real product)

It also explains his state of mind...