Dahlin vs Heiskanen

[Phil McKraken]

I"m pretty sure both these guys are 7-8 years away from their real prime.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Points aren't everything and the most defining quality for a defenseman.

This. HF Boards over utilizes point totals to evaluate player effectiveness.

 

[sabremike]

This. HF Boards over utilizes point totals to evaluate player effectiveness.

Yup, people who understand and follow the sport at a high level understand that point totals are not the biggest criteria when judging a defenseman.

*Looks at list of past Norris Trophy winners*

Nevermind.....

 

[dortt]

Accomplishing things no defenseman has at his age since roughly 40 years ago. Yup, 0 signs of generational talent there.

He is a superstar in the making. But not generational. The term generational is overused big time here on HF. Generational is the Orr level (the list I had named). Here, generational seems to = superstar

 

[tsujimoto74]

He is a superstar in the making. But not generational. The term generational is overused big time here on HF. Generational is the Orr level (the list I had named). Here, generational seems to = superstar

Literally what Dahlin is doing hasn't been done in several generations of players. He is very much on track to be as special as he was hyped to be.

 

[Oan]

Literally what Dahlin is doing hasn't been done in several generations of players. He is very much on track to be as special as he was hyped to be.

Defensemans priority should be to defend. Is his defending ability generational, or on track to become one?

 

[hairylikebear]

Literally what Dahlin is doing hasn't been done in several generations of players. He is very much on track to be as special as he was hyped to be.

Would you mind elaborating what Dahlin has been doing that you consider generational?

 

[Kcb12345]

Defensemans priority should be to defend. Is his defending ability generational, or on track to become one?

I defend Heiskanen a lot and am pro-Heiskanen obviously, but Dahlin certainly could become one of the top defensemen in the NHL defensively one day. Sabres are the team I watch the 2nd most outside of Dallas cause I spend a lot of my time in New York (state) with Sabres fans.

Biggest issue I see with Dahlin isn't as much his defensive abilities as it is his immaturity both physically and mentally. Understandable for a 19 year old, but he clearly does not know how to use his size to his advantage yet and often times when he tries to he takes a bad penalty. He also gets caught cruising around in his own zone quite a bit which is another area that mentally he will have to get past cause it's not an ability issue.

Next biggest problem with his defensive game is understanding when to join the rush. Sometimes he will already be out of the defensive zone and headed down the ice before the puck has even left their zone, and shows very little effort in getting back to his position once someone turns it over (mental issue again). He's very heavily focused on only the offensive side of things when he steps foot on the ice and sometimes seems to have no interest in playing in his own end and just wants all offense all the time, and as a result guys just skate around him and win puck battles over him (which shouldn't happen once he mentally engages in the D zone and uses his size to his advantage). He's a very similar player to prime John Klingberg right now (but is 19 years old). Fancy and always putting in effort in the offensive zone and creating chances, but makes too many costly mistakes and doesn't put the effort he needs in at the other end of the rink.

He's not like this all the time though, but more-so this season than last for some reason. Maybe it's a "sophomore slump" or no motivation while playing for the Sabres because of bad teammates or coaching or who knows. When he does put in the effort he's a fine dman in his own end. Some of the turnovers he has had this season while transitioning the puck are just bizarre given what we saw from him last year. Unforced errors that almost seem like panic moves for no reason yet last season I rarely remember him turning pucks over like that. Felt like every outlet pass from him got through

 

[tsujimoto74]

Defensemans priority should be to defend. Is his defending ability generational, or on track to become one?

Have you ever watched Dahlin play, man? He's not Karlsson. He plays on all 200' of the ice. He's not perfect in his own zone yet, but---aside from a rough stretch earlier this season---he's been good there, and his offensive talent is just insane.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Literally what Dahlin is doing hasn't been done in several generations of players. He is very much on track to be as special as he was hyped to be.

Aaron Ekblad only had 5 points less than Dahlin in their rookie years. I think generational players show up and they are top 5 in the league (see Crosby, see Ovechkin, McDavid). Not just good compared to other youngsters of the same age, but just one of the best period.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Aaron Ekblad only had 5 points less than Dahlin in their rookie years. I think generational players show up and they are top 5 in the league (see Crosby, see Ovechkin, McDavid). Not just good compared to other youngsters of the same age, but just one of the best period.

We don’t know how good Dahlin would be if he played the amount per game he should. It’s not his fault he plays 19 minutes per game.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

We don’t know how good Dahlin would be if he played the amount per game he should. It’s not his fault he plays 19 minutes per game.

It might be, it might not be. We're not NHL coaches.

 

[RorschachWJK]

I don't disagree that Dahlin has the potential to be one of the very best dmen in nhl. What I do disapprove is when his proponents are salivating over a difference in total points between Dahlin and Heiskanen, yet ignoring a difference in usage (PP time and PK time) which is at least as big. That's just dishonest. Also, even though I don't have the numbers, I strongly suspect that Dahlin is getting easier ES minutes than Heiskanen.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

It might be, it might not be. We're not NHL coaches.

I don’t like appeals to authority.

Is it wrong to suggest that he’s the best defenseman on that team? Which other team plays their best defenseman 19 minutes per game?

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I don’t like appeals to authority.

Is it wrong to suggest that he’s the best defenseman on that team? Which other team plays their best defenseman 19 minutes per game?

He doesn't kill penalties, which is why they've argued between him, Risto and Jokiharju this season.

 

[Kcb12345]

I don’t like appeals to authority.

Is it wrong to suggest that he’s the best defenseman on that team? Which other team plays their best defenseman 19 minutes per game?

Cale Makar plays 20 minutes. Unless you kill penalties and are trusted defensively in all situations, you aren't getting more than that. If the Sabres have a one goal lead going into the final few minutes of play, it's likely Dahlin doesn't see the ice for the rest of the night. Playing a few extra minutes per game would most likely not affect his point totals when he is already getting all the prime offensive minutes he can in a game

 

[tsujimoto74]

Aaron Ekblad only had 5 points less than Dahlin in their rookie years. I think generational players show up and they are top 5 in the league (see Crosby, see Ovechkin, McDavid). Not just good compared to other youngsters of the same age, but just one of the best period.

If you think Ekblad and Dahlin are comparable, I'm not really sure what to tell you.

Also, by your logic, the only generational defenseman ever to play in the NHL was Orr. D virtually always take longer to reach their peak than forwards. Apples and oranges.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

If you think Ekblad and Dahlin are comparable, I'm not really sure what to tell you.

Also, by your logic, the only generational defenseman ever to play in the NHL was Orr. D virtually always take longer to reach their peak than forwards. Apples and oranges.

No. IF Dahlin has a career like Lidstrom, then he is also a generation Dman. And Lidstrom wasn't considered generational until he proved it. For now, Dahlin is a good dman on track to be a star dman. No where near generational. Top tier young star dman in the league. Hasn't separated himself from the others. I'll take Heiskanen by a hair.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

If you think Ekblad and Dahlin are comparable, I'm not really sure what to tell you.

Also, by your logic, the only generational defenseman ever to play in the NHL was Orr. D virtually always take longer to reach their peak than forwards. Apples and oranges.

I mean this thread isn't a good comparison either. One is a very good all around defenseman that is putting up 40+ pts, the other is a guy that has elite level offense that is being used primarily as an OFD and isn't that good defensively (yet, but likely won't be as good as Heiskanen is defensively).

It's weird that these types of threads pop up, it's like someone is desperate to compare a guy that isn't a good comparison and then gets mad at anyone that disagrees. Far too many of these pop up and are argued to death.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Would you mind elaborating what Dahlin has been doing that you consider generational?

The way rookie Dmen are tearing up the league currently (Makar & Hughes) it makes Dahlin’s production seem mediocre. Dahlin still has the potential to be a superstar but definitely not generational.

 

[sabremike]

It might be, it might not be. We're not NHL coaches.

I completely trust the judgement of a coach who continues to throw the completely washed up and horrible Zack Bogosian (who is Corey Schneider level cooked and is not good enough to belong on an NHL roster at this point) out onto the ice to cost the team games on a nightly basis.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Cale Makar plays 20 minutes. Unless you kill penalties and are trusted defensively in all situations, you aren't getting more than that. If the Sabres have a one goal lead going into the final few minutes of play, it's likely Dahlin doesn't see the ice for the rest of the night. Playing a few extra minutes per game would most likely not affect his point totals when he is already getting all the prime offensive minutes he can in a game

That's the thing about a kid like Heiskanen. As a coach, you would be 100% fine throwing him out on the PP as much as you would in the last min of the game to protect the lead because he's just that f***ing good.

People have this desire to think the OFD's out there are so easily changed into complete defensemen when it's further from the truth, they are what they are, they end up needing a partner that balances their weaknesses. But guys like Heiskanen for example, they're those guys that you wish you had 3-4 more of.

 

[Chimpradamus]

They're difficult to compare. Heiskanen plays in a more defensive minded enviroment than Dahlin does. Dallas has 125 GF and has allowed 120. Buffalo has scored 145 goals and allowed 152.

It's not because Dallas lacks star power, that they don't score more. Dallas arguably has more offensive star power than Buffalo has.

 

[Panthaz89]

I mean this thread isn't a good comparison either. One is a very good all around defenseman that is putting up 40+ pts, the other is a guy that has elite level offense that is being used primarily as an OFD and isn't that good defensively (yet, but likely won't be as good as Heiskanen is defensively).

It's weird that these types of threads pop up, it's like someone is desperate to compare a guy that isn't a good comparison and then gets mad at anyone that disagrees. Far too many of these pop up and are argued to death.

These have literally been popping up and starting due to Finn fans starting all the way back to Dahlin's rookie season in his own prospect thread......they've done the same thing to Hughes over and over again too your actually arguing for the insecure side if anything and can't even let certain guys get 2 years into their career without bashing them to death especially with people posting that Dahlin has been horrid defensively when he was good at both ends since he was 18.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

These have literally been popping up and starting due to Finn fans starting all the way back to Dahlin's rookie season in his own prospect thread......they've done the same thing to Hughes over and over again too your actually arguing for the insecure side if anything and can't even let certain guys get 2 years into their career without bashing them to death especially with people posting that Dahlin has been horrid defensively when he was good at both ends since he was 18.

There was a debate which one would have a better rookie season and many swedes ridiculed finns who picked Heiskanen.