D-Day - Canucks waive Baertschi, Biega, Goldobin

Hoghandler

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Jul 9, 2019
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Reid Boucher also has a good shot and can also put up 15-20 goals. Let's put him in. Oh wait, we wouldn't do that because he is a non-factor in every other area of the game and we would get roasted with him on the ice. Sutter is legitimately living off reputation rather than performance.

They can't. The only way Sutter is a help to the team is if he plays at the level he did three years ago while also being shifted to the wing.

This stupid ****ing setup of Sutter and Beagle will bleed goals based on past evidence. The players around them are not new.

Before this week, I had taken the wait and see approach with Green as he always had nothing to work with. They had the choice to go with Gaudette and Baertschi in a scoring line and change things up from this group that bleeds goals and they didn't.

Haven't been this annoyed with a Benning regime move in 2.5 years.

Reid Boucher has never scored 9 goals in a season. Sutter has averaged 16 goals/82 games as a canuck, while battling brutal injuries during that time. As I said, durability is the question mark. If Sutter stays healthy, look for him to once again break 15 goals.

Sutter also brings PK utility. He is not a 'non factor' unless his body can't hold up. Don't confuse overpaid with useless. Sutter is the former, not the latter.
 

4Twenty

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Dec 18, 2018
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after the back and forth we had of you consistently insisting i was auto defending, this line sound disingenuous as hell.


It might.. if we were talking about a player that isn't an NHL caliber player.

Also makes ya wonder.... what makes a guy try to ram label of managerial auto defender or pro-Benning on someone because he thinks a guy with "slight chance" of being better isn't being played right now. Quite the hill to choose to die on.
Why are you so worried about being labeled pro?

I honestly had you pegged similarly. But I think you’re more on an anti-neg and that’s confusing. Because it sometimes comes across as defending.


I’ve got a question for you re: Beagle vs Gaudette:

When will we know Beagle is no longer an NHL player? Are there certain benchmarks? Having a contract in the league is one thing but what kind of low bar would be have to fail to clear to not be an NHLer? If he performs identically this coming season to last season is that still an NHL player? Gaudette put 5 pucks past goalies in the league last year, Beagle 2.

I think you’re also failing to recognize the difference in cost of the players. And why do they need two RH checking players? Were you impressed with Horvat’s play when Beagle was out? Remember him head to head with MCdavid and winning the matchup?

I can bet Connor MCDavid would prefer to play against Beagle than Horvat. He’ll have the puck in our end against Beagle. Absolute no threat. These guys aren’t valuable anymore imo. Especially when they’re older and on inflate salaries.


Beagle is a better player than Sutter. Better GA/60, better at face offs, better durability, better analytics.
Which years are you using? How many games is in your sample? Have you accounted for usuals?


Jay Beagle at his peak in his prime was a 4th liner. He’s never been as good as Sutter. I’m no fan of Sutter but he’s a much better hockey player than Beagle.

I’ll never understand the support Beagle as a player gets. He was brutal last year. Seems a helluva guy but that isn’t really consequential.
 

Canucks1096

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Feb 13, 2016
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Reid Boucher also has a good shot and can also put up 15-20 goals. Let's put him in. Oh wait, we wouldn't do that because he is a non-factor in every other area of the game and we would get roasted with him on the ice. Sutter is legitimately living off reputation rather than performance.

They can't. The only way Sutter is a help to the team is if he plays at the level he did three years ago while also being shifted to the wing.

This stupid ****ing setup of Sutter and Beagle will bleed goals based on past evidence. The players around them are not new.

Before this week, I had taken the wait and see approach with Green as he always had nothing to work with. They had the choice to go with Gaudette and Baertschi in a scoring line and change things up from this group that bleeds goals and they didn't.

Haven't been this annoyed with a Benning regime move in 2.5 years.

Who will kill penalties for the Canucks in 2019-20?

Sutter was the best Penalty killer just last year. Best GA/60 on the Pk, Boucher never scored 15 to 20 goals in the bottom 6. Sutter did more than a few times.

Boucher is not an nhl player. Sutter is,

Sutter 26 plus Regular games was helping the team. He was 5th in esp on the team and led the team in plus/minus. Yes plus/minus is a misleading stat however you said he bleed goals. If wasn't like that just 26 plus nhl games ago.
 
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Melvin

21/12/05
Sep 29, 2017
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I mean, all of this comes from the Canucks not buying out Schaller at the start of the off-season, and then spending the summer twiddling their thumbs hoping they can find a trade partner for Eriksson (which we all knew wouldn't happen.)
 

tyhee

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Feb 5, 2015
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Can you clarify what you mean by this? Can a team really keep a player on LTIR based on how the team is going? (performing?). The flip side of what I think you're suggesting is that teams can pressure players to return from injury before they are ready for cap reasons, which is wrong in many different ways. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you are saying though.

I'm not an expert on the CBA between owners and players, but my sense has always been that LTIR was never intended to make it easier for teams to find loopholes to circumvent the cap.

Right now it doesn't appear to me that the Canucks get any benefit if they get relief from the league for Roussel's long-term injury.

Technically there's no LTIR list. People use it as an easy way to refer to a situation where a player is on injured reserve for a long term and the team requests cap relief from the league.

There is no separate list that players who are injured long-term are put on and there is no cap relief unless the team requests it. When requested and granted, the injured player's cap hit still counts against the cap but the team is permitted to exceed the cap.

The following is my understanding of how the relief calculation works, set out in simplified terms. I'll ask if someone who knows the ins and outs of the CBA can show me where I'm mistaken if that is the case.

Perhaps an easy way to think about how much the team can exceed the cap is to start with the cap hits of the injured and replacement players. Take the lower one-the team can't get a benefit more than the cap hit of the replacement player nor more than the cap hit of the injured player.

Then take that figure and assume the team has to use all of it's available cap space first, so subtract the amount of cap space from the cap hit of the injured or replacement player.

Now since it's all done daily it all gets divided by 186, the number of days in the season.

Because it's done that way, there's no accrual of any extra space. The team will be at it's new cap hit for the entire period the player is on injured reserve, with no amount being accrued to take care of later injuries.

For example, let's say that the Canucks, to get cap compliant and reduce the roster to 23 players, temporarily loaned a player, let's say Gaudette, to Utica. That would get them to 23 players including Roussel but not Gaudette and a total cap hit of about $80.417 million, about $1.083 million.

Now if the Canucks put Roussel on injured reserve and get relief from the league, they'd first have to use up their available space. Since Gaudette's cap hit of $916,667 is less than the $1.083 million they have in available cap space, they have to use that up first. That means, essentially, that they're left with a cushion of only about $167K to cover short term injuries, such as they currently have with Motte and Fantenberg (at least we hope they're short-term.)

As it appears to me right now the Canucks have no benefit from relief from Roussel's injury and a of $167 K to cover short term injuries AND any performance bonuses that may be earned by Pettersson, Hughes and Gaudette, all of whom have made the team. The performance bonuses can be deferred to next season but that would leave the team with little flexibility next season. Consider that Pettersson's performance could be as much as $2.85 million (and he maxed it out last season), Hughes and Gaudette each could be as much as $850K, that leaves a maximum in performance bonuses that might have to be almost entirely deferred to next season of over $4.5 million. It's likely to be less of course, but also likely to be substantial.

That may be why the Canucks are leaving Motte and Fantenberg on the roster at present, avoiding using up some of that precious $167 K cushion until they are sure they need to.

Of course, circumstances could change so that there are additional injuries resulting in the team getting some long-term relief, but at present unless I'm mistaken they're stuck using up most of their available cap space leaving very little cusion.
 

Bleach Clean

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Aug 9, 2006
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after the back and forth we had of you consistently insisting i was auto defending, this line sound disingenuous as hell.


It shouldn’t. You’re finally talking about why you chose to auto-defend management’s decision to have Beagle over Gaudette. It addresses the topic at hand.


It might.. if we were talking about a player that isn't an NHL caliber player.

Also makes ya wonder.... what makes a guy try to ram label of managerial auto defender or pro-Benning on someone because he thinks a guy with "slight chance" of being better isn't being played right now. Quite the hill to choose to die on.


I said you auto-defended this managerial decision without thinking it through - I stand by that assertion. You took it as a given when I don’t think you should have.

And the “slight chance” to be an NHLer vs non-NHLer is being very, very kind to the non-NHLer. It’s the start of the hill. We’ll see who dies upon it.
 

wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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Does anyone really think any of these 3 players were going to be any part of a SC playoff team?

Maybe Biega as a role player, glad the other 2 aren't on the team as there is zero need for them.
 
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Canucko

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Sep 6, 2019
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Does anyone really think any of these 3 players were going to be any part of a SC playoff team?

Maybe Biega as a role player, glad the other 2 aren't on the team as there is zero need for them.

It has little to do with the players. It’s just another opportunity for the usual people to complain about the usual topics. This is as much about Eriksson as it is about Baer.

A lot of the criticism is warranted, but it gets really tiring reading it thread after thread after thread. Doesn’t matter what the thread “topic” is - it’ll end up with the usual BS complaining. Doesn’t matter if it’s been covered 100s of times, it’ll be brought up again, and again, and again.
 

Blue and Green

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Dec 17, 2017
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Right now it doesn't appear to me that the Canucks get any benefit if they get relief from the league for Roussel's long-term injury.

They do benefit. He was put on IR today, bringing the roster down to 23. The Canucks' upper limit will be reset temporarily to $81.33M instead of $81.5M while he is on LTIR. The team can exceed that temporary limit by Roussel's hit ($3M) on a prorated basis during that stint.
 

Blue and Green

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I mean, all of this comes from the Canucks not buying out Schaller at the start of the off-season, and then spending the summer twiddling their thumbs hoping they can find a trade partner for Eriksson (which we all knew wouldn't happen.)

Agree on Eriksson but buying out Schaller wouldn't have helped, especially with 500k of his money this season coming from a signing bonus.
 

tyhee

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Feb 5, 2015
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They do benefit. He was put on IR today, bringing the roster down to 23. The Canucks' upper limit will be reset temporarily to $81.33M instead of $81.5M while he is on LTIR. The team can exceed that temporary limit by Roussel's hit ($3M) on a prorated basis during that stint.

I don't see how what you say helps them benefit.

With Roussel on the roster they were under by about $1.083 million per season. With Roussel and Gaudette both on the roster they're still under. Even if Baertschi is the replacement they're still under (his pay is mostly on the Canucks' cap hit anyway as only $1.075 million can be buried, and the $1.075 million is less than the available space without using long term injury relief) besides which not all of Baertschi's contract as replacement could be used anyway since he makes more than Roussel.

I understand if and when the injury circumstances get worse they could benefit from long term injury relief but as things are now, I don't see it.
 

valkynax

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I remember someone said that Benning and his cronies may actually have the courage to send Eriksson down if he does not perform up to par.

R...ight.

Answer me this: what if anything has this guy done to earn him a spot on the roster, aside from his wildly overpaid contract?
 

Canucko

Registered User
Sep 6, 2019
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I remember someone said that Benning and his cronies may actually have the courage to send Eriksson down if he does not perform up to par.

R...ight.

Answer me this: what if anything has this guy done to earn him a spot on the roster, aside from his wildly overpaid contract?

He hasn’t. Perhaps ownership doesn’t want to burry it; they plan on moving him down when Roussel returns; or they are still (wrongfully imo) hoping he regain something.

It’s a bad contract for a player who’s fallen of a cliff. I think it’s been covered. What else can be said?
 

valkynax

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He hasn’t. Perhaps ownership doesn’t want to burry it; they plan on moving him down when Roussel returns; or they are still (wrongfully imo) hoping he regain something.

It’s a bad contract for a player who’s fallen of a cliff. I think it’s been covered. What else can be said?

yet he's still on the roster, unjustifiably so.

he's here because he's earning 6 million a year, our management/ownership is too dumb and/or too embarrassed to send him packing.
 

Blue and Green

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Dec 17, 2017
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I don't see how what you say helps them benefit.

With Roussel on the roster they were under by about $1.083 million per season. With Roussel and Gaudette both on the roster they're still under. Even if Baertschi is the replacement they're still under (his pay is mostly on the Canucks' cap hit anyway as only $1.075 million can be buried, and the $1.075 million is less than the available space without using long term injury relief) besides which not all of Baertschi's contract as replacement could be used anyway since he makes more than Roussel.

I understand if and when the injury circumstances get worse they could benefit from long term injury relief but as things are now, I don't see it.

It's immaterial whether Baertschi makes more than Roussel; what matters is the marginal cap hit of returning Baertschi to the NHL ($1.075M) compared to the LTIR relief for Roussel ($3M). Baertschi already counts for nearly $2.3M toward the upper limit; only the buried $1.075M would kick in additionally against the relief pool if he is recalled during Roussel's LTIR or toward the cap if he is recalled after Roussel returns to the roster.

Again, the upper limit gets reset when a team enters/exits LTIR. For the Canucks, it is now $81.33M-- the annualized cap hit if all of the current cap obligations remained on the books exactly as is for the entire season.

Here is a primer on LTIR from CapFriendly. LTIR FAQ - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps I was in the dark on how LTIR worked until I read it a year ago.
 

4Twenty

Registered User
Dec 18, 2018
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It has little to do with the players. It’s just another opportunity for the usual people to complain about the usual topics. This is as much about Eriksson as it is about Baer.

A lot of the criticism is warranted, but it gets really tiring reading it thread after thread after thread. Doesn’t matter what the thread “topic” is - it’ll end up with the usual BS complaining. Doesn’t matter if it’s been covered 100s of times, it’ll be brought up again, and again, and again.
What’s wrong with fans making valid criticisms on moves that shape the lineup?

Especially when it involves current events.

Like get off your high horse.
 

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