D-Day - Canucks waive Baertschi, Biega, Goldobin

[StreetHawk]

I think 3 years was ok. I said as much at the time, but they couldn't pay him close to market value, which is what this deal is.....they should've said take us to arbitration and get a 1yr award in a year you're likely to lose your spot to guys like Leipsic, Goldobin etc, or get him on term, but on a team friendly deal. I think if he was paid closer to $2m or even $2.5m he's an asset, at $3.37m, he's a bad contract.

That’s my point. Either high cap and short term or term with a more reasonable cap hit.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Green likes his 'grunts' in the bottom 6.and also has an aversion to 'one dimensional' forwards in his top 6. (goodbye Goldy,Sven).

I guess the reason that Green wanted to keep Motte,and Schaller was the PK..(how many of the top 6 PK..?)...At least there's a reason Green picked those players over Baertschi..but Eriksson..?..I dont get that one.

eriksson can also pk pretty good.

 

[4Twenty]

eriksson can also pk pretty good.

Im intrigued how you or we determine what makes a good PKer. As far as I've seen people just mention they play on the PK, but what makes one good at it? Is it measurable? I'd say PKing is easily more teachable than PP.

Judging by Travis Green, it seems he just puts guys out there he really isn't concerned by them getting hit with the puck....they put bad players or bottom 6 players on the PK for injury risk aversion, not that they're somehow smarter hockey players better at reading the play.

 

[LaVar]

Except we don't save a couple million... We save exactly $1.075 million unless he's claimed and due to his cap hit and injury history such a claim is unlikely.

In which scenario are you seeing us saving more than $1.075 million with this move?

like you said, we'd save more if he was claimed

he's clearly better than schaller, motte, and loui, so they probably assumed he had the best chance of being claimed...

 

[krutovsdonut]

Im intrigued how you or we determine what makes a good PKer. As far as I've seen people just mention they play on the PK, but what makes one good at it? Is it measurable? I'd say PKing is easily more teachable than PP.

Judging by Travis Green, it seems he just puts guys out there he really isn't concerned by them getting hit with the puck....they put bad players or bottom 6 players on the PK for injury risk aversion, not that they're somehow smarter hockey players better at reading the play.

it's much more teachable and requires less skill but some are still better at it than others. burrows is a guy who gave an extra effort that elevated it to an art form. loui is not an artist. he is a very steady calm guy who does everything correctly by the book.

 

[LaVar]

eriksson can also pk pretty good.

and yet beagle, sutter, motte, and schaller all averaged more sh toi per game last year than eriksson.

so what, we kept 6m loui up to be our 5th best pker?

 

[timw33]

But that includes Roussel as well. Certainly not ideal for a bottom feeder hoping to rise to the top but it all fits. I will worry about next season after this one ends. In regards to cap space that is.

Right now regular season is upon us and I am ready! That is where my focus is.

This is the exact attitude that has us in a cap crunch in the first place. Lack of any shred of foresight.

Roussel may be back within 24 days/10 games and wont go on LTIR, in which case we have 167k in cap space. Also, Roussel can go on LTIR, we can exceed by $3MM, but then when Roussel comes back we have to get cap compliant and will be back to having 167k in space. LTIR is a band aid solution.

 

[PG Canuck]

But that includes Roussel as well. Certainly not ideal for a bottom feeder hoping to rise to the top but it all fits. I will worry about next season after this one ends. In regards to cap space that is.

Right now regular season is upon us and I am ready! That is where my focus is.

This is how you don't build a contender, folks. Just read this post, and this is how you dwell in mediocrity.

 

[4Twenty]

it's much more teachable and requires less skill but some are still better at it than others. burrows is a guy who gave an extra effort that elevated it to an art form. loui is not an artist. he is a very steady calm guy who does everything correctly by the book.

But how are you coming to the conclusion he's good at it. Just feel/eye test? I don't hold it against if you if that's the case, I'm just trying to figure out how people conclude a given player is good on the PK.

I start digging through some numbers and those calm steady guys have PK reps, but the best PKers for my money are guys like Grabner, Bergeron, Marchand, even young Jared McCann who can play positionally well, but can pounce on opportunities and turn it into scoring chances. I was surprised how far up the list McCann is on the numbers I'm looking at.

For this reason, I don't see why Green wouldn't try Virtanen or even Baertschi on the PK. These guys are at least threats to go the other way.

 

[LaVar]

this puts us at 13f/7d with roussel also out...

wonder who we're going to call up!

 

[timw33]

This is how you don't build a contender, folks. Just read this post, and this is how you dwell in mediocrity.

Post up in a nice lazyboy, let your jaw muscles go slack, maybe just let the drool fall out of your mouth, and just enjoy the different colours racing around frozen water and hope everyone out there has fun.

 

[settinguptheplay]

This is the exact attitude that has us in a cap crunch in the first place. Lack of any shred of foresight.

Roussel may be back within 24 days/10 games and wont go on LTIR, in which case we have 167k in cap space. Also, Roussel can go on LTIR, we can exceed by $3MM, but then when Roussel comes back we have to get cap compliant and will be back to having 167k in space. LTIR is a band aid solution.

If I was the GM I would more readily care about that. As a fan I have no control. I said it was not an ideal situation. I also said it fits. Are either of these things false? Then why sweat it. Next season is a long way off when it comes to cap concerns.

Not a band aid solution. We are cap compliant even with Roussel. What is the issue? That we can't trade for a big contract?

This is how you don't build a contender, folks. Just read this post, and this is how you dwell in mediocrity.

Oh please enlighten me. Did I claim it to be a way to build a contender? Did I say it was the ideal situation? No. You have done this to me before. Putting words in my mouth that I never said. You argue in bad faith and intellectual dishonesty.

Post up in a nice lazyboy, let your jaw muscles go slack, maybe just let the drool fall out of your mouth, and just enjoy the different colours racing around frozen water and hope everyone out there has fun.

No brother. Just been around long enough to know all the panty twisting does nothing to change fate. All of the uptight back straight wannabe forum GM's sitting on our seats does nothing to change that. The whole idea that someone who see's value in just being a fan needs to be mocked just goes to show the level of discourse that happens in these parts. Intellectual hackery.

I am willing to stick to hockey. Are you?

 

[tradervik]

Im intrigued how you or we determine what makes a good PKer. As far as I've seen people just mention they play on the PK, but what makes one good at it? Is it measurable? I'd say PKing is easily more teachable than PP.

Judging by Travis Green, it seems he just puts guys out there he really isn't concerned by them getting hit with the puck....they put bad players or bottom 6 players on the PK for injury risk aversion, not that they're somehow smarter hockey players better at reading the play.

You can look at shot attempts and goals to evaluate a player's effectiveness killing penalties. Loui is pretty good by those metrics. I'd even say he's excellent. Check out this Pass it to Bulis article for a deeper dive.

 

[krutovsdonut]

But how are you coming to the conclusion he's good at it. Just feel/eye test? I don't hold it against if you if that's the case, I'm just trying to figure out how people conclude a given player is good on the PK.

I start digging through some numbers and those calm steady guys have PK reps, but the best PKers for my money are guys like Grabner, Bergeron, Marchand, even young Jared McCann who can play positionally well, but can pounce on opportunities and turn it into scoring chances. I was surprised how far up the list McCann is on the numbers I'm looking at.

For this reason, I don't see why Green wouldn't try Virtanen or even Baertschi on the PK. These guys are at least threats to go the other way.

i think he's sound positionally, doesn't get drawn our of position and seems to be good at denying the shot, puck recovery, clearances and ragging the puck. he's not exceptional, but he's very competent and i think really steady.

i think loui's whole deal is that he plays an extremely disciplined conservative game and waits patiently for his opportunities. he's gotten too conservative in terms of physical play and he lacks the edge and jump to use his opportunities the way he used to.

 

[krutovsdonut]

and yet beagle, sutter, motte, and schaller all averaged more sh toi per game last year than eriksson.

so what, we kept 6m loui up to be our 5th best pker?

are you under the impression i want eriksson on the team?

 

[timw33]

If I was the GM I would more readily care about that. As a fan I have no control. I said it was not an ideal situation. I also said it fits. Are either of these things false? Then why sweat it. Next season is a long way off when it comes to cap concerns.

You are aware that we're going to burn through that $167k by calling up players to fill in for short term (non LTIR) injuries and could end up in a situation where we can't even carry a full 23 man roster anymore (see Calgary a couple years back)?

 

[settinguptheplay]

You are aware that we're going to burn through that $167k by calling up players to fill in for short term (non LTIR) injuries and could end up in a situation where we can't even carry a full 23 man roster anymore (see Calgary a couple years back)?

I never disagreed with you in the first place. It is not an ideal situation and the reasons for that run deep. My point was to suggest that we are cap compliant. Can circumstances change that? Perhaps. That 167k is based off a 24 man roster. There is some wiggle room there. If we get hit with 4~5 non ltir injuries then ya... Could spell trouble.

 

[Canucko]

You are aware that we're going to burn through that $167k by calling up players to fill in for short term (non LTIR) injuries and could end up in a situation where we can't even carry a full 23 man roster anymore (see Calgary a couple years back)?

Why would we not be using the cap relief gained from Roussell’s LTIR stint?

 

[timw33]

Why would we not be using the cap relief gained from Roussell’s LTIR stint?

If Roussel isn't LTIR eligible (24 days or 10 games) then it's a moot point and there's no relief to be had.

If he is eligible, then we have temporary space while Roussel is out to be used on a replacement player. We have to get cap compliant when he comes back, which seems like could be sooner than we originally thought. We also don't accrue additional cap space while using up our LTIR (i.e if we had 167k to start year, by the trade deadline that would be closer to $400k assuming we didn't need to call anyone up for short term injuries).

 

[F A N]

I love how you jump THAT to equating to being a managerial auto defender.

Are you one to perpetuate categorizing people as haters and benning bros as well?
Our mod ladies and gentlemen.

I made the same criticism. Discussions inevitably end up feeling being pigeon holed and where you are stupidly being pushed into a corner so that my arguments can be categorized. You're arguing that there is a grey area based on many variables but then the response is that the only valid and logical argument is that you choose between black and white. Different way to live I guess. Logic is apparently one-sided.

 

[DL44]

Your adoption of management’s perceived pecking order is an auto-defense of their thinking here. You were/are immediately aligned with it.

That does not apply to your thinking overall, but I understand why _you_ would conflate it as such.

You are so wrong you are the mayor of wrongville wrong.

I haven't jumped on the Gaudette bangwagon yet because how I perceive him to have played and has been be playing. The fact you are trying to spin my own opinion - which i had prior to people seeing him as the extra forward yesterday- as some sort of managerial auto defending is laughable.

But you keep on trying... keep on doubling down. You do you.

Edit.. wait.. just checking... but are my past criticisms of Beiga also now considered managerial auto defending by you now that he's been waived? Let me know, k. bye.

 

[Bleach Clean]

It’s interesting how this discussion has gone:

- I question an automatic adoption of a management belief by DL44. They both think Beagle is better than Gaudette.

- He cites an agreement with said pecking order... I disagree.

- He then conflates “auto-defense of management” for this belief with him being an auto-defender of all things Benning in every belief.

- Then, he proceeds to point out that he does not agree with Gaudette being a spare. Showing that he is not an auto-defender.

- Not realizing that Gaudette being a spare/sent to Utica is a strawman. The initial Beagle/Gaudette discussion remains unresolved.

- Cries of wrong-doing ensues. Baiting and accusations of tribalism.

- Initial auto-defense remains in the background, unanswered.


So HF, you decide.

I know that as a long-time poster here, I am acutely aware of who is predominantly pro-Benning and anti-Benning. Everyone here knows... Is that pertinent to this discussion? Well, I didn’t think so, but apparently it is.

 

[DL44]

It’s interesting how this discussion has gone:

- I question an automatic adoption of a management belief by DL44. They both think Beagle is better than Gaudette.

- He cites an agreement with said pecking order... I disagree.

- He then conflates “auto-defense of management” for this belief with him being an auto-defender of all things Benning in every belief.

- Then, he proceeds to point out that he does not agree with Gaudette being a spare. Showing that he is not an auto-defender.

- Not realizing that Gaudette being a spare/sent to Utica is a strawman. The initial Beagle/Gaudette discussion remains unresolved.

- Cries of wrong-doing ensues. Baiting and accusations of tribalism.

- Initial auto-defense remains in the background, unanswered.


So HF, you decide.

I know that as a long-time poster here, I am acutely aware of who is predominantly pro-Benning and anti-Benning. Everyone here knows... Is that pertinent to this discussion? Well, I didn’t think so, but apparently it is.

Keep trying...

Pandering may pay off.

here's another fact - idgaf who the GM is.. I ain't pro or anti anything Benning.

Edit: Awe... my posts getting deleted now... weird... wonder how.

 

[Tables of Stats]

I still don't get the notion that Gaudette had to make the team considering he's not even in the top 9 and unlikely to be in the lineup, but guess how much cap space they would have if they sent down Gaudette and not Baertschi? $8,461. I don't think they were comfortable running that close to the cap and that had a major influence on the decision.

I don't think our management team has the brightest cookies in the toolshed running it but I hope that they'd realize that running with ~170k of cap space and running with ~8k in cap space means that exact same thing. Once you don't have enough cap for a league minimum contract you're in the same place either way. The only real consideration is accrued cap space for the TDL but that shouldn't be a concern right now.

You could be right in that they really wanted to save an extra 150k because being 8k from the cap is spooky, but I doubt it.

The moves were made with the cap in mind. That's where. I thought it was obvious. There are people denying the cap had any implications. I think it's clear they did.

Then explain the cap implications for what they did versus using LTIR or sending another player down. If you can't do so, stop talking as if you have any clue about the salary cap.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Keep trying...

Pandering may pay off.

here's another fact - idgaf who the GM is.. I ain't pro or anti anything Benning.

Edit: Awe... my posts getting deleted now... weird... wonder how.

I think your post history will speak to how posters perceive your position. Just as my history will speak to my position. It’s not something we need to discuss here though.

I’m still isolating it to Beagle/Gaudette — I question management’s decision and your own assertion that Beagle is better. I do not take that as a given. Do you?