News Article: 'Culture change' necessary in Senators dressing room

[Joeyjoejoe]

ah ffs! I knew by providing my opinion you guys would start trying to twist my words as much as you could.

Look, I like EK as a player, I have his jersey and my kids look up to the guy.

I just never thought he was the right person for the captaincy, he's just not the rah-rah type of personality you need to be successful in that role.

Doesn't mean he's a bad person or I'm assassinating his character and all that.

Oh yes I remember reading reports of Daniel Alfredsson's Miracle on Ice rah-rah type of speeches in the locker room during the 2007.

wtf is this.

 

[BonkTastic]

Very creative. Kudos

Now see how many fit the fact that EK choose this particular rumour to break his silence and set the record straight after so many others were simply ignored.

They all fit.

He's protecting his public image. Even if it was his camp that leaked it (and again, I'm not saying they did, just that the possibility exists that they might have), they will deny it because the goal is to control the public message, regardless of what you are trying to accomplish behind closed doors.

 

[Smash88]

Ok guys, take however you want, I can't go on a 10 minute diatribe to explain what I think it takes to be a good captain.

I don't think Erik Karlsson was good for the captain, but we had no other choice.

If you think he is good, then so be it.

 

[Smash88]

Rah-rah personality...like Joe Sakic? Steve Yzerman? Daniel Alfredsson?

Don't get me wrong, I've always thought Karlsson was rushed into the captaincy, but being an effective leader isn't always about how much of an extrovert you are.

Yeah maybe I used the wrong words, I don't know how to exactly explain it.

It takes a special mix of being a good enough player that can lead on-ice and have a strong enough personality to lead the rest of the guys on the team off the ice.

 

[Tuna99]

Ok guys, take however you want, I can't go on a 10 minute diatribe to explain what I think it takes to be a good captain.

I don't think Erik Karlsson was good for the captain, but we had no other choice.

If you think he is good, then so be it.

Why isn't he a good Captain. He carries the team on the ice. He is a super pro in the press and he represents the NHL with excellence and dignity.

Mario Lemieux was an introvert who said nothing in the dressing room but was exactly like EK - carried his team on the ice and displayed excellence at a level never seen before. Stevie Y was criticized for not being a good Captain and not being able to elevate his team for years until he did, Stevie Y was once considered selfish and uncoachable.

The year we went to playoffs everyone loved EK - the GM, the fans, the media, Craig Anderson. Now we have a horrid season and it's all EK's fault and Boro is here to save the day.

This is stupid. Mark Messier's teams missed the playoffs for essentially the last decade f his career and they coudn't get rid of him out of Vancouver fast enough and he's supposed to be the Poster Boy for Captains.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Why isn't he a good Captain. He carries the team on the ice. He is a super pro in the press and he represents the NHL with excellence and dignity.

Mario Lemieux was an introvert who said nothing in the dressing room but was exactly like EK - carried his team on the ice and displayed excellence at a level never seen before. Stevie Y was criticized for not being a good Captain and not being able to elevate his team for years until he did, Stevie Y was once considered selfish and uncoachable.

The year we went to playoffs everyone loved EK - the GM, the fans, the media, Craig Anderson. Now we have a horrid season and it's all EK's fault and Boro is here to save the day.

This is stupid. Mark Messier's teams missed the playoffs for essentially the last decade f his career and they coudn't get rid of him out of Vancouver fast enough and he's supposed to be the Poster Boy for Captains.

I can't imagine Gretz was that vocal in the rooms he was in but literally have nothing to base it on, I agree that the captain doesn't need to be the most vocal in the room. I also believe there needs to be at least a few respected guys in there that keep everyone in check verbally.

 

[Sensung]

They all fit.

He's protecting his public image. Even if it was his camp that leaked it (and again, I'm not saying they did, just that the possibility exists that they might have), they will deny it because the goal is to control the public message, regardless of what you are trying to accomplish behind closed doors.

So you think it is plausible that his camp leaked it and are so incompetent that they couldn't see how it would damage his image and then scrambled the next day to break their official silence policy and have EK set the record straight?

I'd file that one under highly unlikely.

So instead of chasing down wild geese, why don't we look at your list and speculate as to what is the most likely scenario.

What is your best guess?

Who benefits the most?
What about this particular rumour sees EK break his silence?

 

[Tuna99]

When we trade EK and he goes on the be the top player in the game for another team and he wins a Cup - what will Ottawa fans be left with to justify the trade? Anderson was sick of controversy after he admittedly left Ottawa for the summer and didn't lift a finger for the entire summer to address the locker room issues, Boro had the owners back so EK had to go.

This entire EK is a bad Captain thing is ridiculous, immature and mindless. He's had how many coaches, how many of our best players have been traded, how many of our leadership guys have been let go?

 

[Tuna99]

I can't imagine Gretz was that vocal in the rooms he was in but literally have nothing to base it on, I agree that the captain doesn't need to be the most vocal in the room. I also believe there needs to be at least a few respected guys in there that keep everyone in check verbally.

Phaneuf, Alfie, Brassard, Methot, Fisher, Kelly - all traded by the team. Who is EK supposed to turn to, the #7 Dman? Alex Burrows? Ben Harpur?

this is stupid. If there's a lack of leadership it's because the GM and Owner haven't brought good leaders in. They did with Phaneuf and then got rid of him 1 year later. They did with Brassard and traded him 1 year later.

 

[BonkTastic]

So you think it is plausible that his camp leaked it and are so incompetent that they couldn't see how it would damage his image and then scrambled the next day to break their official silence policy and have EK set the record straight?

I'd file that one under highly unlikely.

It's not incompetence if it's a planned strategy. Leak the info for behind-closed-doors reasons, deny it publicly.

And what is this "official silence policy" you speak of?

 

[BatherSeason]

The year we went to playoffs everyone loved EK - the GM, the fans, the media, Craig Anderson. Now we have a horrid season and it's all EK's fault and Boro is here to save the day.

This is exactly what people need to remember.

"On the 8th Day God created Erik Karlsson" - Pierre Dorion

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

That's all assuming the rumor was legit. Chances are some reporter simply wanted more clicks to create a buzz, or some random person fed bogus crap to said reporter for shits and giggles.

 

[BonkTastic]

That's all assuming the rumor was legit. Chances are some reporter simply wanted more clicks to create a buzz, or some random person fed bogus crap to said reporter for ****s and giggles.

Oh yeah. This possibility should have been on my list. It gets a new category, though.

CATEGORY 5: EKLUND, AND EKLUND-LIKE EFFECTS

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Oh yeah. This possibility should have been on my list. It gets a new category, though.

CATEGORY 5: EKLUND, AND EKLUND-LIKE EFFECTS

The Eklund Effect. Someone should write a thesis on that.

The social media rumor mill and crazy that goes with it sure has changed sports in the past decade.

 

[Sensung]

It's not incompetence if it's a planned strategy. Leak the info for behind-closed-doors reasons, deny it publicly.

And what is this "official silence policy" you speak of?

Highly unlikely, but within the realm of possibility.

What other official statements have been made by EK or his representatives?

Now, what do you believe is the most likely scenario?

 

[BonkTastic]

What other official statements have been made by EK or his representatives?

About what? In what timeframe?

Now, what do you believe is the most likely scenario?

I think there are multiple "likely scenarios", which is why from the beginning my issue has been with people making definitive statements and objective claims about a situation they can't possibly have the authority to make objective statements about.

I'd say there are at least 5 legitimate, very possible explanations for that statement being put out into the public sphere. For me to say definitively that one is overwhelmingly more likely than the others would be arrogance on my part, and presumptive of information I clearly don't have access to.

Could it be a smear job on EK by the team? Sure. It could. But it could also just as likely be other scenarios as well. It's just as likely that a team like Tampa or Dallas floated it to try and lower Karlsson's trade price, to name one of a handful of very likely and plausible explanations.

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

Ahhh yesssss this is what this fanbase and city knows what to do best. We have so much experience in this.

Team has a horrible season.
Lets blame the most talented player and try to make some shitty rumors stick to him regarding his character and sight stupid shit like "leadership, culture change, character, and attitude"
Then we look for a scrub hero to latch on to and compare him to the talented player and say things like "why can't he be like Boro" "Boro is a true leader"
Instead of actually blaming the team's lack of success on the lack of talent.

I have seen it so many times with this fanbase, shit is like clockwork. I love it.

Team loses to Buffalo in the playoffs.
It's Alfie Fault! Trade him for Conroy, not a leader!


Team doesn't make the playoff for 2013-14 season.
It's Spezza's fault! Doesn't get along with the coach! Bad Captain!
It was definitely not the fault of crappy goaltending, and their 3.0GAA and terrible defense structure.

Team misses the playoffs and is 30th in the league for 2017-18 season.
It's Karlsson's fault! Bad leader! Bad Captain! Bad Culture! Forget the 16-17 playoffs where he carried the team almost to the finals and everyone was singing his praises as a captain.
It was definitely not the fault of sub .900SV% goaltending, a bottom 5 offence and defense, and a coach that couldn't adapt his ways as the rest of the league figured his system out. It was definitely the fault of the captain that lead the team in scoring again even after coming off surgery and no summer training or training camp.

Can't wait for the Stone bad leader days, then Tkachuk then so forth. It will never end with this city vilify the talent when things go wrong.

 

[Sensung]

About what? In what timeframe?

Since the end of the season

I think there are multiple "likely scenarios", which is why from the beginning my issue has been with people making definitive statements and objective claims about a situation they can't possibly have the authority to make objective statements about.

I'd say there are at least 5 legitimate, very possible explanations for that statement being put out into the public sphere. For me to say definitively that one is overwhelmingly more likely than the others would be arrogance on my part, and presumptive of information I clearly don't have access to.

Could it be a smear job on EK by the team? Sure. It could. But it could also just as likely be other scenarios as well. It's just as likely that a team like Tampa or Dallas floated it to try and lower Karlsson's trade price, to name one of a handful of very likely and plausible explanations.

Of the 5 legitimate possible explanations, which one do you feel is the most likely to be true?

Keep in mind that EK has no stake in his trade value. If, as you suggested, a team floated it out there to lower his value, why would EK break his silence and set the record straight?

Why should he care if someone screws the Sens?

Sure the Sens might issue a statement to try and prop up his value, but why would EK?

Sorry, like most if the scenarios you proposed it just doesn't make sense.

I freely agree that I overstated the situation by stating a belief/opinion as fact.

However, the team smearing EK is the most likely reason for the leak and EK's quick rebuttal, in my opinion.

 

[BonkTastic]

Of the 5 legitimate possible explanations, which one do you feel is the most likely to be true?

I'm not sure how many more times you're going to ask me this question, with my answer being some variation of "I have no clue how likely any of the possible scenarios are based on the information I have" without it becoming repetitive. Three more times? Four?

The most COMMON explanations would probably be a trading partner trying to lower Karlsson's trade value by putting Dorion in a spot where he feels he has no choice to but to trade Karlsson and take back less than he wants, or Karlsson's camp trying to pressure a trade for the same reasons (putting Dorion in a corner and reducing the leverage he has). Those would be my top 2 based on literally nothing else other than a gut feeling and common sense. 3rs would be that the rumour is legit, but only a half truth and the real scenario is similar but different, and neither party (team or player) wanted it to get out, but sometimes these things find a way.

The team engaging in character assasination is... Possible. It's not the first thing that I'd consider, though.

All this being said, like I said, there's no way any of us could possibly lean in one direcrion so heavily that we are sure it is the case, unless we are letting our emotions and biases lead us rather than our objective, crirically thinking selves.

 

[Sensung]

I'm not sure how many more times you're going to ask me this question, with my answer being some variation of "I have no clue how likely any of the possible scenarios are based on the information I have" without it becoming repetitive. Three more times? Four?

The team engaging in character assasination is... Possible. It's not the first thing that I'd consider, though.

All this being said, like I said, there's no way any of us could possibly lean in one direcrion so heavily that we are sure it is the case, unless we are letting our emotions and biases lead us rather than our objective, crirically thinking selves.

Interesting that you should mention critical thinking.

One of the methods used to assess critical thinking is exactly the type of comparative analysis I'm asking you to engage in. Ranking a variety of scenarios from most to least likely is a common critical thinking task.

The most COMMON explanations would probably be a trading partner trying to lower Karlsson's trade value by putting Dorion in a spot where he feels he has no choice to but to trade Karlsson and take back less than he wants,

In this scenario, why does EK break his silence and set the record straight? What does he have to gain from propping up his trade value?

or Karlsson's camp trying to pressure a trade for the same reasons (putting Dorion in a corner and reducing the leverage he has). Those would be my top 2 based on literally nothing else other than a gut feeling and common sense. 3rs would be that the rumour is legit, but only a half truth and the real scenario is similar but different, and neither party (team or player) wanted it to get out, but sometimes these things find a way.

Again, if this is a tactic to lower EK's value to facilitate a trade, why make the on the record definitive statement breaking months of silence the next day?

So the rumour got out...great it lowers EK's value and puts more pressure on PD. So why is EK helping PD out the next day and lessening the likelyhood of the trade he is supposedly trying to facilitate?

Can you build a reasonable case for some random St-Louis based writer fabricating the story to get attention and then EK's rebuttal to protect his image? Sure.

When you put it in the context of 1) The Sens track record of character assassination when previous stars were moved. 2) The Garrihack article promoting the idea that EK is likely to be moved before camp to promote team chemistry and avoid the distraction 3) The timing of this rumour coming out 4) the Anderson "drama" article and 5) the Warren smear job then I think the pattern suggest that the Team Leak to smear/diminish and EK protect my reputation is the most likely case.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I'm not sure how many more times you're going to ask me this question, with my answer being some variation of "I have no clue how likely any of the possible scenarios are based on the information I have" without it becoming repetitive. Three more times? Four?

The most COMMON explanations would probably be a trading partner trying to lower Karlsson's trade value by putting Dorion in a spot where he feels he has no choice to but to trade Karlsson and take back less than he wants, or Karlsson's camp trying to pressure a trade for the same reasons (putting Dorion in a corner and reducing the leverage he has). Those would be my top 2 based on literally nothing else other than a gut feeling and common sense. 3rs would be that the rumour is legit, but only a half truth and the real scenario is similar but different, and neither party (team or player) wanted it to get out, but sometimes these things find a way.

The team engaging in character assasination is... Possible. It's not the first thing that I'd consider, though.

All this being said, like I said, there's no way any of us could possibly lean in one direcrion so heavily that we are sure it is the case, unless we are letting our emotions and biases lead us rather than our objective, crirically thinking selves.

Bonk, you were a mod once, why do you do this to yourself

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Yes, the “culture change” will be complete when the players that want to win don’t re-sign with this team.

 

[BonkTastic]

Interesting that you should mention critical thinking.

One of the methods used to assess critical thinking is exactly the type of comparative analysis I'm asking you to engage in. Ranking a variety of scenarios from most to least likely is a common critical thinking task.



In this scenario, why does EK break his silence and set the record straight? What does he have to gain from propping up his trade value?


Again, if this is a tactic to lower EK's value to facilitate a trade, why make the on the record definitive statement breaking months of silence the next day?

So the rumour got out...great it lowers EK's value and puts more pressure on PD. So why is EK helping PD out the next day and lessening the likelyhood of the trade he is supposedly trying to facilitate?

Can you build a reasonable case for some random St-Louis based writer fabricating the story to get attention and then EK's rebuttal to protect his image? Sure.

When you put it in the context of 1) The Sens track record of character assassination when previous stars were moved. 2) The Garrihack article promoting the idea that EK is likely to be moved before camp to promote team chemistry and avoid the distraction 3) The timing of this rumour coming out 4) the Anderson "drama" article and 5) the Warren smear job then I think the pattern suggest that the Team Leak to smear/diminish and EK protect my reputation is the most likely case.

Man, you are so dead-set on refusing to look at the sutuation objectively. Everything here is dripping with bias and editorialization.

You're so willing to take such a deep dive on your own pet theory and so quick to dismiss others based on nothing but fleeting "whatabout"isms.

Let me know when you're willing to have this debate openly, and critically. So far, you're not willing to really consider any other theory other than your own, you seem to have your mind made up already, and are finding reaaons why you don't have to think about the multitude of other possibilities out there.

 

[Sensung]

Man, you are so dead-set on refusing to look at the sutuation objectively. Everything here is dripping with bias and editorialization.

You're so willing to take such a deep dive on your own pet theory and so quick to dismiss others based on nothing but fleeting "whatabout"isms.

Let me know when you're willing to have this debate openly, and critically.

Let me know when you're ready t

You haven't answered a single objection I raised with regards to the article after asking what bothered me about it.

You haven't answered a single objection I raised with regards to the scenarios you proposed.

I freely admitted I overstated my case and that you were correct to point it out.

I posted that I respected your opinion and was interested to hear what you had to say.

Yet I'm the one being painted as not being willing to have an open debate.

Interesting.

 

[Flamingo]

This thread has a culture problem.