News Article: 'Culture change' necessary in Senators dressing room

[BonkTastic]

You haven't answered a single objection I raised with regards to the article after asking what bothered me about it.

You haven't answered a single objection I raised with regards to the scenarios you proposed.

I freely admitted I overstated my case and that you were correct to point it out.

I posted that I respected your opinion and was interested to hear what you had to say.

Yet I'm the one being painted as not being willing to have an open debate.

Interesting.

Ok then. Let's have a little thought exercise:

List me the possible / hypothetical reasons why you think your own theory might be wrong. In your opinion.

 

[BonkTastic]

Bonk, you were a mod once, why do you do this to yourself

I have no idea.

 

[Sensung]

Ok then. Let's have a little thought exercise:

List me the possible / hypothetical reasons why you think your own theory might be wrong. In your opinion.

I have already admitted my theory could be wrong and given reasons why I believe it to be the most plausible explanation, in spite of the variety of alternatives.

You have yet to address the issues I raised with your theories or my problems with the Warren article.

Is that your idea of an open, critical debate?

 

[armani]

This thread needs a culture change.

 

[BonkTastic]

I have already admitted my theory could be wrong and given reasons why I believe it to be the most plausible explanation, in spite of the variety of alternatives.

You have yet to address the issues I raised with your theories or my problems with the Warren article.

Is that your idea of an open, critical debate?

It never was an open debate, because you haven't opened yourself up to the possibility that other explanations might carry some weight. I've tried to introduce very legitimate scenarios, and you haven't given them more than a fart's whisper of consideration.

You're so held up on this notion that Karlsson making a public statement about one rumour actually means a damn, that you're using it as a catch-all excuse for literally every alternate theory but your own.

Like, you are so convinced that a team can lie and make up a rumour in order to slander someone, but so convinced that a player would never lie, or tell a half truth, or try to work behind the scenes to manipulate his own situation... Or so convinced that OUR team would lie about it, but outright dismissive that ANOTHER team would lie if it benefitted them somehow.

I mean, I'm not trying to convince you of anything here other than to keep an open mind about these things. I'm not saying the team lied. I'm not saying Karlsson lied. I'm not saying a 3rd team lied, or that anyone leaked anything, or that the leak is legit or fabricated... My entire point all along is that you were so quick to jump to one conclusion without considering anything else, and that point is further strengthened by the fact that you've continued to ask me for a "counterpoint" that somehow disproves your theory. That was never the conversation I was trying to have. I asked you to tryand think critically about the situation, on your own. To consider alternate possibilities. Instead you asked ME for a counterpoint, and dismissed like a dozen alternate theories under a very narrow line of reasoning in order to do what... Prove that your initial theory was "the right one"?

That was never the conversation. I want you to step away from your biases and consider all of the options. You are still arguing why I am "wrong"and you are "right". That's why this isn't an open and critical debate. You're trying to convince me why you are right, and all I'm trying to do is convince you to change the way you are approaching the subject. We're not even debating about the same thing.

 

[Sensung]

It never was an open debate, because you haven't opened yourself up to the possibility that other explanations might carry some weight. I've tried to introduce very legitimate scenarios, and you haven't given them more than a fart's whisper of consideration.

I'm intrigued by two things. 1) What exactly is a fart's whisper of consideration? 2) How you can claim to know how much consideration I gave your scenarios? I certainly considered them enough to point out issues with them, none of which you have chosen to address.

You're so held up on this notion that Karlsson making a public statement about one rumour actually means a damn, that you're using it as a catch-all excuse for literally every alternate theory but your own.

Not held up on it at all. Just find it to be meaningful in a summer in which EK failed to address any of the numerous other rumours. Ready to hear your interpretation of why it is meaningless.

Like, you are so convinced that a team can lie and make up a rumour in order to slander someone, but so convinced that a player would never lie, or tell a half truth, or try to work behind the scenes to manipulate his own situation... Or so convinced that OUR team would lie about it, but outright dismissive that ANOTHER team would lie if it benefitted them somehow.

Again, I'm not sure how you telling me what and how I think is open, critical debate, but I'm assuming you are going somewhere with this other than to just try to discredit me.

And please feel free to point out where I stated a player or NHL teams would never lie to promote their own self-interest...I don't remember typing that (or thinking that, for that matter)

I mean, I'm not trying to convince you of anything here other than to keep an open mind about these things. I'm not saying the team lied. I'm not saying Karlsson lied. I'm not saying a 3rd team lied, or that anyone leaked anything, or that the leak is legit or fabricated... My entire point all along is that you were so quick to jump to one conclusion without considering anything else, and that point is further strengthened by the fact that you've continued to ask me for a "counterpoint" that somehow disproves your theory. That was never the conversation I was trying to have. I asked you to try and think critically about the situation, on your own. To consider alternate possibilities. Instead you asked ME for a counterpoint, and dismissed like a dozen alternate theories under a very narrow line of reasoning in order to do what... Prove that your initial theory was "the right one"?

So you know how quickly I jumped to a conclusion and how many alternatives I considered? How?
By stating I believe the team smear/EK compelled to set record straight theory is the best of the available options, doesn't preclude me considering others as possible.

That was never the conversation. I want you to step away from your biases and consider all of the options. You are still arguing why I am "wrong"and you are "right". That's why this isn't an open and critical debate. You're trying to convince me why you are right, and all I'm trying to do is convince you to change the way you are approaching the subject. We're not even debating about the same thing.

You aren't debating the issue at all. You simply are trying to teach me a lesson in how you believe I should post.

Perhaps you should examine your biases with regards to my postings and consider the option that I was open to hearing your opinion and examining the merits of some of the other scenarios you consider to be as likely as the one I espouse.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Maybe the team needs a culture change. Sure. But it's pretty far down the list of things that need to change.

• We need to play a system that doesn't require players to skate backwards for 80% of the game.
• We need a coach who doesn't play someone like Alex Burrows on the first power play unit, and who doesn't play his best prospect on his off-side in his rookie season.
• We need a goaltending duo that maintains, at minimum, a league average sales percentage.
• We need a GM that other people in hockey (players, coaches, managers) respect, who doesn't talk out of his ass.
• We need more players who can skate.
• We need more players who can score.
• We need more players who have some kind of offensive creativity.

So yes, culture is the problem.

I look forward to Borowiecki "rah-rah-ing" the team in intermissions as Matthews and Marner skate around him every shift and Karlsson leads defenseman in scoring on a team that's not in the basement.

 

[BonkTastic]

... but I'm assuming you are going somewhere with this other than to just try to discredit me.

Man... Just..

Just go and re-read all of my posts in this discussion, and instead of telling yourself "Bonk is trying to prove me wrong" or "Bonk is trying to discredit me" as you read them, consider instead that "Bonk is maybe just pointing out that I'm not, or haven't yet, really given this enough thought to be so cavalier and absolute in my belief that I have arrived at the only answer that make sense, and maybe the answer isn't as obvious as I originally thought".

This whole exercise was never to convince you that you are wrong, or to discredit you. Go re-read the conversation. I have, this entire time, simply asked you to give serious considerarion to alternate possibilities, and the fact that there are enough plausible alternatives out there that making a definitive claim regarding this issue is short-sighted.

 

[Sensung]

Maybe the team needs a culture change. Sure. But it's pretty far down the list of things that need to change.

• We need to play a system that doesn't require players to skate backwards for 80% of the game.
• We need a coach who doesn't play someone like Alex Burrows on the first power play unit, and who doesn't play his best prospect on his off-side in his rookie season.
• We need a goaltending duo that maintains, at minimum, a league average sales percentage.
• We need a GM that other people in hockey (players, coaches, managers) respect, who doesn't talk out of his ass.
• We need more players who can skate.
• We need more players who can score.
• We need more players who have some kind of offensive creativity.

So yes, culture is the problem.

I look forward to Borowiecki "rah-rah-ing" the team in intermissions as Matthews and Marner skate around him every shift and Karlsson leads defenseman in scoring on a team that's not in the basement.

Fantastic post!!!

 

[BankStreetParade]

Maybe the team needs a culture change. Sure. But it's pretty far down the list of things that need to change.

• We need to play a system that doesn't require players to skate backwards for 80% of the game.
• We need a coach who doesn't play someone like Alex Burrows on the first power play unit, and who doesn't play his best prospect on his off-side in his rookie season.
• We need a goaltending duo that maintains, at minimum, a league average sales percentage.
• We need a GM that other people in hockey (players, coaches, managers) respect, who doesn't talk out of his ass.
• We need more players who can skate.
• We need more players who can score.
• We need more players who have some kind of offensive creativity.

So yes, culture is the problem.

I look forward to Borowiecki "rah-rah-ing" the team in intermissions as Matthews and Marner skate around him every shift and Karlsson leads defenseman in scoring on a team that's not in the basement.

Why do you guys do yourself the disservice of making everything you say dismissible by using blatantly false information? Alex Burrows on the first power play unit? He was 10th on the team in total PP TOI and 17th on the team in average PP TOI/GP.

He was virtually unused on the power play when other players were available. And when he was used it was the coaching staff trying anything they can to inspire some production out of one of the worst PPs in the league last year.

How can anyone even bother giving the rest of your argument any merit when you misrepresent something so badly?

 

[BonkTastic]

Why do you guys do yourself the disservice of making everything you say dismissible by using blatantly false information? Alex Burrows on the first power play unit? He was 10th on the team in total PP TOI and 17th on the team in average PP TOI/GP.

He was virtually unused on the power play when other players were available. And when he was used it was the coaching staff trying anything they can to inspire some production out of one of the worst PPs in the league last year.

How can anyone even bother giving the rest of your argument any merit when you misrepresent something so badly?

HFBoards in a nutshell these days.

 

[Sensung]

Man... Just..

Just go and re-read all of my posts in this discussion, and instead of telling yourself "Bonk is trying to prove me wrong" or "Bonk is trying to discredit me" as you read them, consider instead that "Bonk is maybe just pointing out that I'm not, or haven't yet, really given this enough thought to be so cavalier and absolute in my belief that I have arrived at the only answer that make sense, and maybe the answer isn't as obvious as I originally thought".

This whole exercise was never to convince you that you are wrong, or to discredit you. Go re-read the conversation. I have, this entire time, simply asked you to give serious considerarion to alternate possibilities, and the fact that there are enough plausible alternatives out there that making a definitive claim regarding this issue is short-sighted.

Bonk, I'm not sure how you can read my posts and state that I think mine is the "only answer". I've been quite clear since you rightly challenged me on it that there are alternative explanations.

I have been attempting to give them serious consideration by discussing the merits of those explanations. A process, in which you have been reticent to engage, instead choosing to project your interpretation of my thought processes as if they were facts.

In short, you are fighting a battle you have already won...I was wrong to state my interpretation of the facts as the only answer and am open to a discussion of a variety of possibilities. Are you?

 

[Micklebot]

The sens leaking the rumour only makes sense if it's true, why would they knowingly hurt his trade value by starting that rumour unless the damage is already done and the Canadian teams have all already been told no and that fact is known amoung other GMs. Even if it is true, not sure that the team gains much by leaking this. They know full well that it's going to be a PR nightmare, but fans probably don't want to see him go to Mtl or Toronto anyways, so I don't see too many fans getting upset that he won't go to a canadian team particularly since there really hasn't been any smoke with those teams. Had the team leaked he wouldn't sign with VGK, TBL or Dal, that would probably piss fans off far more.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is either another team trying to throw a monkey wrench into the works or just some other 3rd party source.

 

[Sensung]

Why do you guys do yourself the disservice of making everything you say dismissible by using blatantly false information? Alex Burrows on the first power play unit? He was 10th on the team in total PP TOI and 17th on the team in average PP TOI/GP.

He was virtually unused on the power play when other players were available. And when he was used it was the coaching staff trying anything they can to inspire some production out of one of the worst PPs in the league last year.

Why do you use tactics like "you guys" to produce an US vs THEM division, when we are all Sens fans?

Why do you believe that getting one detail wrong makes everything else dismissable? (I mean Dave simply could have added the qualifier that EVER playing Burrows on the the PP [1st or 2nd unit] is a problem.)

How can anyone even bother giving the rest of your argument any merit when you misrepresent something so badly?

Perhaps the expectation is that posters will be able to look past one detail and examine the merit of the post as a whole.

I know I certainly can.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Why do you guys do yourself the disservice of making everything you say dismissible by using blatantly false information? Alex Burrows on the first power play unit? He was 10th on the team in total PP TOI and 17th on the team in average PP TOI/GP.

He was virtually unused on the power play when other players were available. And when he was used it was the coaching staff trying anything they can to inspire some production out of one of the worst PPs in the league last year.

How can anyone even bother giving the rest of your argument any merit when you misrepresent something so badly?

I can't speak to the frequency of usage but I do have near traumatizing memories of Burrows being out far to often and routinely in crucial situations, I agree that not many others were doing anything of substance either out there....the powerplay in particular seemed to use the same strategy that was ineffective all season from game 1 to 82.

 

[Sensung]

The sens leaking the rumour only makes sense if it's true, why would they knowingly hurt his trade value by starting that rumour unless the damage is already done and the Canadian teams have all already been told no and that fact is known amoung other GMs. Even if it is true, not sure that the team gains much by leaking this. They know full well that it's going to be a PR nightmare, but fans probably don't want to see him go to Mtl or Toronto anyways, so I don't see too many fans getting upset that he won't go to a canadian team particularly since there really hasn't been any smoke with those teams. Had the team leaked he wouldn't sign with VGK, TBL or Dal, that would probably piss fans off far more.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is either another team trying to throw a monkey wrench into the works or just some other 3rd party source.

So EK expressing an Anti Canadian position won't hurt his standing with our Canadian fanbase?

Can you see how this could be used to lessen the blow if EK is being dealt?

 

[Smash88]

Perhaps the expectation is that posters will be able to look past one detail and examine the merit of the post as a whole.

I know I certainly can.

That is a major problem on this board. People cherry pick one part of your message and then ignore the rest of it.

It's also usually cherry picked out of context, so it makes it seem like the person was saying something completely different than what they actually meant.

 

[stempniaksen]

The sens leaking the rumour only makes sense if it's true, why would they knowingly hurt his trade value by starting that rumour unless the damage is already done and the Canadian teams have all already been told no and that fact is known amoung other GMs. Even if it is true, not sure that the team gains much by leaking this. They know full well that it's going to be a PR nightmare, but fans probably don't want to see him go to Mtl or Toronto anyways, so I don't see too many fans getting upset that he won't go to a canadian team particularly since there really hasn't been any smoke with those teams. Had the team leaked he wouldn't sign with VGK, TBL or Dal, that would probably piss fans off far more.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is either another team trying to throw a monkey wrench into the works or just some other 3rd party source.

Maybe it's possible that Karlsson indicated he wouldn't sign with any (other) Canadian team and the Sens brass leaked the news hoping the fan base would assume that also meant he wouldn't re-sign in Ottawa?

I honestly don't know what to think here, I'm playing devil's advocate a little bit, but nothing would surprise me with this team anymore.

 

[Micklebot]

I can't speak to the frequency of usage but I do have near traumatizing memories of Burrows being out far to often and routinely in crucial situations, I agree that not many others were doing anything of substance either out there....the powerplay in particular seemed to use the same strategy that was ineffective all season from game 1 to 82.

Burrows wasn't a regular on the 1st PP, but he did get out there. His most common linemates on the PP were Stone and Brassard, our top two forwards in PP TOI, in fact, those three were on the ice together for about 40 mins of PP, which is pretty high given that Brass was traded at the deadline, and Stone was injured for a significant chuck of the end of the season with each only playing 58 games. Burrows only played about 100 mins on the PP over the season, so yes, it's verifiable that he got a fair chunk of his personal PP time on the top unit.

 

[Micklebot]

So EK expressing an Anti Canadian position won't hurt his standing with our Canadian fanbase?

Can you see how this could be used to lessen the blow if EK is being dealt?

Presumably Ottawa only cares about what Ottawa fans think, not Vancouver or Winterpeg.

Do Ottawa fans care if he won't play with other Canadian teams? probabaly not as much; our concern is whether he play here or not. If it isn't here, my next concern and imo likely that of other Sens fans would be that he not play with our biggest rivals (Toronto and Mtl perhaps?).

So, no, I don't think it would be a smart way to lessen the blow of EK being dealt. If they leaked that he didn't want to play specifically in Ottawa, sure. But who cares if he doesn't want to play in Edmonton. I certainly don't.

 

[Micklebot]

Maybe it's possible that Karlsson indicated he wouldn't sign with any (other) Canadian team and the Sens brass leaked the news hoping the fan base would assume that also meant he wouldn't re-sign in Ottawa?

I honestly don't know what to think here, I'm playing devil's advocate a little bit, but nothing would surprise me with this team anymore.

Why expand the leak to all teams? Why not just leak that he has no interest in signing here and is looking for a fresh start? That way it doesn't impact the trade value (as much). I mean, our management is kind of bad, so maybe they didn't think it through, but I think this idea that Ottawa leaked the rumour is full of logical holes.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I have no idea.

 

[Cosmix]

This thread needs a culture change.

There is a culture of poverty here. Or is it a poverty of culture?

 

[Cosmix]

"Lewis: People want leadership. And in the absence of genuine leadership, they will listen to anyone who steps up to the microphone. They want leadership, Mr. President. They're so thirsty for it, they'll crawl through the desert toward a mirage, and when they discover there's no water, they'll drink the sand."

I don’t think the concept is elusive. It is easy to find definitions and explanations of what it is. Here is just one example.

What Is Leadership? 10 Ways To Define It

 

[Ray Kinsella]

Dorion already acknowledged that the dressing room was broken last year this isn't something new.

Well, considering he and his wife lost their child, he did say he was taking the summer to reflect and spend time with his close ones. Grieving doesn't happen over night.

Aside from that, what do you expect him to say with all this bs trade frenzy coming back to light...? He said he would take interviews after training camp starts.