CSB Rankings Released This Afternoon: Landeskog #1?

[prongertheman9]

My apology--of course RNH was too young for the 2009 iVAN HLINKA when TOFFOLI was there---I had a bran fart--the issue was whether TOFFOLI made Seguin or vice versa..HOWVER the issue here is whether TOFFOLI and MARTINDALE are making PRINCE (hence PRINCE only gets credit for #35 on Central Scoutings NA skater list at mid-term)WHEREAS OTHER smaller forwards who happen to be in the DUB do not get down -graded for their size issues (RNH,RATTIE,BARTSCHI) and seem to get more credit for "doing it on their own talents)..ONE could pose that RATTIE and BARTSCHI play on the same line alot so they should not get solo credit and that IF you are going to give RNH a solo credit while denying Prince as much solo contribution despite his much higher point totals than RNH,then something is amiss in all this--WHY should the little guys of the DUB get so much more ranking than PRINCE does from the OHL -one must ASSUME the scouts are giving T+M most of the credit for inflating PRINCE's numbers... NOR is is that all the others ARE great defenseively and Prince has defensive flaws--- that is bogus-I've seen Prince back-check lots of times-he's not a lazy Patrick Kane 1-way type ... HOWEVER if you are going to give solo credits only to DUB guys,then you must be fair --- RNH has a much better team in Red Deer than does MARK MCNEILL in Prince albert...SO if you are giving out solo credits you gotta bump McNeill up to near or better than RNH ..so 2 guys nearly at the same point totals and you are gapping the lots SMALLER one
19 spots ahead of the bIg centre? ITs crazy. EITHER RNH is that greater a player-in which case he has FAILED to put up enough points to justify that gap expetation based on the supposed talent gap -OR THERE SHOULD BE NO GAP and if anything put the bigger centre ahead!


THE ballyhoo about RNH -well the guy should have 75 pts by now not just 50 ...#3 overall for a smallish forward who might put up 95-100 ptsthis year but not any Kane-like 145 pts (you gotta go the extra mile when your small) is a LOL item.

OR can one say that small DUB wingers BARTSCHI and RATTIE are gapped that much more than PRINCE? Come on there is too much LOL going on with Central Scouting's gapping in their rankings -even a kindergartner can see their flaws and nobody cn understand their logic.

We have loopy logic running rampant Central Scouting...If you are successful in the DUB as a little forward you get lots of credit--not as much if you are a successful little guy in the OHL... IF you are a big guy on a poor DUB team and lead it in scoring ,you don't get any credit-I guess you have tyo be a big guy on a Dub team that leads the league before they gap you properly?

I guess if you excell as a smaller guy in Ottawa you get no credit-only if your a small guy in London or Windsor..

Stats don't mean everything bud, potential does. When Evander Kane put up 96 points in the Dub in his draft year it should of been a no-brainer that he went ahead of Duchene and his 79 points. But instead Duchene was a lock for top 3 because he oozed potential and what do you know, 2 years later and the kid is an NHL All-Star.

 

[Minister of Offence]

Stats don't mean everything bud, potential does. When Evander Kane put up 96 points in the Dub in his draft year it should of been a no-brainer that he went ahead of Duchene and his 79 points. But instead Duchene was a lock for top 3 because he oozed potential and what do you know, 2 years later and the kid is an NHL All-Star.

The reliance on statistics is something that bothers me soooooooooooooo much. Just watch the ****ers play!!!!

 

[Dr.Sens(e)]

The reliance on statistics is something that bothers me soooooooooooooo much. Just watch the ****ers play!!!!

I agree. Watching Kovalev play, it's clear he is one of the top 10 forwards in the league, but everyone laughs at me because he doesn't produce at that level. Stats shmats, I say! Glad some people agree with me, that style is more important than substance!

Kidding, of course.

Seriously though, the point on RNH's production being comparable to other WHL draft eligibles is interesting, but does need to be put in context. I've certainly noticed RNH's less than dominat numbers but do see him him as a superior talent to the St. Croix's, McNeil and Bartschi's based on that (plus, his stellar U18's). That said, if you are going to start classifying the guy as a franchise forward (something Couterier has certainly been seen as for the most part) it would have been nice to see him raise his level of play a little higher this season, and in particular, at the WJC camp (where he was the one of the first cuts). Of course, the WJC is not the be all and end all. I like RNH, but have a tough time seeing him better than the other top 3 guys. To me, he is a clear 4th, but well ahead of 5th at this point, too. Of course, he does have the potential to turn into a Brad Richards or Martin St. Louis and be the best player in the draft, but he also might end up as a Stephen Weiss or Brad Boyes - a great NHL forward, but not someone you build around. Time will tell.

 

[Uindicator]

or maybe he doesnt want to go to the islanders/devils. you never know

 

[prongertheman9]

I agree. Watching Kovalev play, it's clear he is one of the top 10 forwards in the league, but everyone laughs at me because he doesn't produce at that level. Stats shmats, I say! Glad some people agree with me, that style is more important than substance!

Kidding, of course.

Seriously though, the point on RNH's production being comparable to other WHL draft eligibles is interesting, but does need to be put in context. I've certainly noticed RNH's less than dominat numbers but do see him him as a superior talent to the St. Croix's, McNeil and Bartschi's based on that (plus, his stellar U18's). That said, if you are going to start classifying the guy as a franchise forward (something Couterier has certainly been seen as for the most part) it would have been nice to see him raise his level of play a little higher this season, and in particular, at the WJC camp (where he was the one of the first cuts). Of course, the WJC is not the be all and end all. I like RNH, but have a tough time seeing him better than the other top 3 guys. To me, he is a clear 4th, but well ahead of 5th at this point, too. Of course, he does have the potential to turn into a Brad Richards or Martin St. Louis and be the best player in the draft, but he also might end up as a Stephen Weiss or Brad Boyes - a great NHL forward, but not someone you build around. Time will tell.

He was cut in the second and final cuts actually. I do agree with you though that he is doing enough statistically that along with his skill set puts him securely into the top 4 but he will definitely need a big second half of the season if he wants to go in the 1-2 range.

 

[Dr.Sens(e)]

He was cut in the second and final cuts actually. I do agree with you though that he is doing enough statistically that along with his skill set puts him securely into the top 4 but he will definitely need a big second half of the season if he wants to go in the 1-2 range.

Right you are. I do recall some reports he hadn't made much of an impact early on, but the guess was they wanted to give him a longer look and kept him around, in particular given his performance at the U18's. I guess I somehow translated this into first round cut. Thanks.

 

[arsmaster*]

Something that is pissing me off - calling Nugent-Hopkins small when he is 6'0" tall, that isnt small, its actually bigger than Sidney Crosby, Mike Richards, Pavel Datsyuk.

He isnt physically mature, but when he plays in the NHL he will likely be around 185 pounds which is big enough when you possess his speed, smarts, vision etc.

Henrik Zetterberg was even skinnier than RNH in his draft year, now he is a top 15 player in the league....height and size in your teenage years allows you to dominate against players who are physically inferior, in the NHL often the "power forwards" in junior just arent the same, because they dont have the size advantage they were used to having.

Mark Mcneil is a good young talent, and has all the tools to become a pro player, but his potential isnt close to what RNH's is, that is why there is such a "big gap".

Hawksfan50 please take a writing class, I know its hard to get all your thoughts out logically (i probably made a few mistakes in this post), but your posts are hard to read, and generally come across as uneducated.

Duncan Siemens is a beast....he should be the 2nd defensman drafted IMO, and could be the best when all is said and done...

 

[SDig14]

Something that is pissing me off - calling Nugent-Hopkins small when he is 6'0" tall, that isnt small, its actually bigger than Sidney Crosby, Mike Richards, Pavel Datsyuk.

He isnt physically mature, but when he plays in the NHL he will likely be around 185 pounds which is big enough when you possess his speed, smarts, vision etc.

Henrik Zetterberg was even skinnier than RNH in his draft year, now he is a top 15 player in the league....height and size in your teenage years allows you to dominate against players who are physically inferior, in the NHL often the "power forwards" in junior just arent the same, because they dont have the size advantage they were used to having.

Mark Mcneil is a good young talent, and has all the tools to become a pro player, but his potential isnt close to what RNH's is, that is why there is such a "big gap".

Hawksfan50 please take a writing class, I know its hard to get all your thoughts out logically (i probably made a few mistakes in this post), but your posts are hard to read, and generally come across as uneducated.

Duncan Siemens is a beast....he should be the 2nd defensman drafted IMO, and could be the best when all is said and done...

Honestly, it's funny because it seems most of the people calling him small either haven't seen him play or they are only using the argument when in a debate regarding his value relative to another prospect...either way, it really won't affect his draft status what people think on HF anyways

The reason McNeill is so interesting is because he is able to produce but is already 6'2 210 lbs, which is phenomenal for a 17 year old kid...that kid end up being a Joe Thornton type frame in the NHL, which could be dominant if he translates well to the NHL

Agreed on all counts with respect to Siemens. Have only been able to see him twice now (getting my 3rd viewing pretty soon though), but the kid is nasty in his own end, a very good skater, and is showing more offensive potential than people were expeciting out of him at this time last year. The kid can seemingly do it all right now. I think he will have competition from Beaulieau (sp?) and Hamilton as the 2nd d-man taken in the draft, but anything in the 8-12 range wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Dr.Sens(e)]

Something that is pissing me off - calling Nugent-Hopkins small when he is 6'0" tall, that isnt small, its actually bigger than Sidney Crosby, Mike Richards, Pavel Datsyuk.

A fair point, as he isn't a midget, but I think his size is mostly referenced in the context of the other top 3 guys. Compared to them, he is small. It's kind of like when Weiss was called 'small' compared to Spezza and Kovalchuk in his draft year. He is close to 6-0 and almost 200 pounds now, but he was still small compared to those two.

Compared to Strome and Huberdeau, then no, he isn't small.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

We have loopy logic running rampant Central Scouting...If you are successful in the DUB as a little forward you get lots of credit--not as much if you are a successful little guy in the OHL... IF you are a big guy on a poor DUB team and lead it in scoring ,you don't get any credit-I guess you have tyo be a big guy on a Dub team that leads the league before they gap you properly?

I guess if you excell as a smaller guy in Ottawa you get no credit-only if your a small guy in London or Windsor..

Sooo......how exactly do you explain CSB ranking McColgan #102?

Maybe it's because CSB actually stands for Canadian Scouting Bureau eh???

Anti-American bias (Prince being American also) is the only way your "theory" has any legs.

 

[leoleo3535]

My apology--of course RNH was too young for the 2009 iVAN HLINKA when TOFFOLI was there---I had a bran fart--the issue was whether TOFFOLI made Seguin or vice versa..HOWVER the issue here is whether TOFFOLI and MARTINDALE are making PRINCE (hence PRINCE only gets credit for #35 on Central Scoutings NA skater list at mid-term)WHEREAS OTHER smaller forwards who happen to be in the DUB do not get down -graded for their size issues (RNH,RATTIE,BARTSCHI) and seem to get more credit for "doing it on their own talents)..ONE could pose that RATTIE and BARTSCHI play on the same line alot so they should not get solo credit and that IF you are going to give RNH a solo credit while denying Prince as much solo contribution despite his much higher point totals than RNH,then something is amiss in all this--WHY should the little guys of the DUB get so much more ranking than PRINCE does from the OHL -one must ASSUME the scouts are giving T+M most of the credit for inflating PRINCE's numbers... NOR is is that all the others ARE great defenseively and Prince has defensive flaws--- that is bogus-I've seen Prince back-check lots of times-he's not a lazy Patrick Kane 1-way type ... HOWEVER if you are going to give solo credits only to DUB guys,then you must be fair --- RNH has a much better team in Red Deer than does MARK MCNEILL in Prince albert...SO if you are giving out solo credits you gotta bump McNeill up to near or better than RNH ..so 2 guys nearly at the same point totals and you are gapping the lots SMALLER one
19 spots ahead of the bIg centre? ITs crazy. EITHER RNH is that greater a player-in which case he has FAILED to put up enough points to justify that gap expetation based on the supposed talent gap -OR THERE SHOULD BE NO GAP and if anything put the bigger centre ahead!


THE ballyhoo about RNH -well the guy should have 75 pts by now not just 50 ...#3 overall for a smallish forward who might put up 95-100 ptsthis year but not any Kane-like 145 pts (you gotta go the extra mile when your small) is a LOL item.

OR can one say that small DUB wingers BARTSCHI and RATTIE are gapped that much more than PRINCE? Come on there is too much LOL going on with Central Scouting's gapping in their rankings -even a kindergartner can see their flaws and nobody cn understand their logic.

We have loopy logic running rampant Central Scouting...If you are successful in the DUB as a little forward you get lots of credit--not as much if you are a successful little guy in the OHL... IF you are a big guy on a poor DUB team and lead it in scoring ,you don't get any credit-I guess you have tyo be a big guy on a Dub team that leads the league before they gap you properly?

I guess if you excell as a smaller guy in Ottawa you get no credit-only if your a small guy in London or Windsor..

Push your Bran Flakes aside and watch some games fiddy.
RNH is putting on a show as we speak.....get off your wallet and watch the game!

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Stats don't mean everything bud, potential does. When Evander Kane put up 96 points in the Dub in his draft year it should of been a no-brainer that he went ahead of Duchene and his 79 points. But instead Duchene was a lock for top 3 because he oozed potential and what do you know, 2 years later and the kid is an NHL All-Star.

I agree entirely with your point, but I'd avoid using that top 4 as an example of anything. They're all fantastic players right now, and in particular everything I'd heard about Hedman being a "bust" turned out to be BS when Tampa played in Vancouver. Duchene has the edge now, but I don't think any of the teams were "wrong". Evander still has a shot at being the top guy and it's not like Duchene was knocked out of the top 10 for lack of production. Your basic point was dead on though.

 

[prongertheman9]

I agree entirely with your point, but I'd avoid using that top 4 as an example of anything. They're all fantastic players right now, and in particular everything I'd heard about Hedman being a "bust" turned out to be BS when Tampa played in Vancouver. Duchene has the edge now, but I don't think any of the teams were "wrong". Evander still has a shot at being the top guy and it's not like Duchene was knocked out of the top 10 for lack of production. Your basic point was dead on though.

I hear what you're saying and I even personally believe that Tavares will still be the best out of the bunch, if the right supporting cast develops. I was just giving an arbitrary example to Hawksfan to show how scouts who actually go WATCH the players play can look beyond stats and see players for potential and in Colorado's case make a decision that, although they're still really young, has yet to be proven wrong.

 

[duga]

I wrote like a month ago that after WJC Hofmann would be ranked around Shalunov. thought they would be ranked a bit higher though.

and where the hell is kucherov? he is the best 93 born scorer by far in the mhl this and last year (outscoring Yakupov for example). and scores as well on international level.

 

[arsmaster*]

Stats don't mean everything bud, potential does. When Evander Kane put up 96 points in the Dub in his draft year it should of been a no-brainer that he went ahead of Duchene and his 79 points. But instead Duchene was a lock for top 3 because he oozed potential and what do you know, 2 years later and the kid is an NHL All-Star.

YOu are right its been 2 years....lets see who the better player is in 10.

 

[Bjorn Le]

Honestly, it's funny because it seems most of the people calling him small either haven't seen him play or they are only using the argument when in a debate regarding his value relative to another prospect...either way, it really won't affect his draft status what people think on HF anyways

The reason McNeill is so interesting is because he is able to produce but is already 6'2 210 lbs, which is phenomenal for a 17 year old kid...that kid end up being a Joe Thornton type frame in the NHL, which could be dominant if he translates well to the NHL

Agreed on all counts with respect to Siemens. Have only been able to see him twice now (getting my 3rd viewing pretty soon though), but the kid is nasty in his own end, a very good skater, and is showing more offensive potential than people were expeciting out of him at this time last year. The kid can seemingly do it all right now. I think he will have competition from Beaulieau (sp?) and Hamilton as the 2nd d-man taken in the draft, but anything in the 8-12 range wouldn't surprise me.

I don't think he has to worry about Beaulieu competing for the 2nd defensemen taken. Beaulieu has to worry about going in the first round at all.

Maybe you were thinking about Murphy.

 

[SDig14]

I don't think he has to worry about Beaulieu competing for the 2nd defensemen taken. Beaulieu has to worry about going in the first round at all.

Maybe you were thinking about Murphy.

No, I meant Beaulieau I just meant the 2nd d-man taken after Larsson (with Murphy being the first), I just wrote it very poorly. However, you really think Beaulieu might not be taken in the first round? He is playing well and is getting quite a bit of respect from scouts recently. I do think there will be 4 d-men taken before him, but it only takes one team to really like him and I have feeling that is exactly what will happen.

 

[member 30781]

hawksfan50 should be banned from the prospect board for all eternity.

 

[bottomofthefoodchain]

hawksfan50 should be banned from the prospect board for all eternity.

Why? He's funny.