Proposal: Creative 4-Way Cap Dump Chi/TB/Det/VGK

[deca guard]

Only trouble with that is Johnson's contract is too long for us to want to retain on.
I did think Johnson or Gourde would actually be ok with moving to Vegas so would waive to do so.

yes 4 years is iffy now that you say it . first 2 dont matter , its the 3rd and 4th years . but 2.5 for two years isnt horrible , a risk but not real dangerous when you consider the assets we could get back in this deal

 

[BinCookin]

yes 4 years is iffy now that you say it . first 2 dont matter , its the 3rd and 4th years . but 2.5 for two years isnt horrible , a risk but not real dangerous when you consider the assets we could get back in this deal

Seems the Chicago poster offering me 1st+2nd might not have others on his side

 

[Kevin Musto]

Chicago giving a 1st for MAF??

Y'all should be the ones giving us a 1st

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

1st and a 2nd for MAF?

you’re insane

 

[8999]

Based on what I've heard, I think the more realistic version is something like this:

CHI in: Fleury @ 50% retained
CHI out: nothing

VGK in: Johnson, 3rd from TB
VGK out: Fleury (no retention)

TB in: nothing
TB out: Johnson, 1st, 3rd

DET in: 1st from TB, 50% of Fleury cap
DET out: nothing

Really this can be two separate deals (Fleury dump and Johnson dump) and any team with 3.5m cap space can replace DET. The rumor is that a 3-team trade with Fleury would involve the third team getting a 1st to retain 50%. This 1st would come from VGK, not the team receiving Fleury.

 

[u2wojo]

Do you think Chicago has really stopped looking for goaltending?

The problem is, that if the Hawks would acquire MAF they would still be looking for goaltending . Th aere in lies the problem of why the Hawks are never sending a 2nd much less also a 1st to acquire MAF

 

[goldenbladz1]

What is your Value to take on MAF 3.5M for Chicago. Or do you really think they plan on running Delia/Subban?

Even at 50% retained Vegas would have to add and Hawks give them nothing as the Hawks are doing them a huge cap favour. 100% retained put the squeeze on Vegas and ask for Krebs or Glass

 

[HawkeyTalkMan]

chicago giving vegas a 5th for fleury at 50% is a favor to Vegas at this point

 

[HoseEmDown]

Based on what I've heard, I think the more realistic version is something like this:

CHI in: Fleury @ 50% retained
CHI out: nothing

VGK in: Johnson, 3rd from TB
VGK out: Fleury (no retention)

TB in: nothing
TB out: Johnson, 1st, 3rd

DET in: 1st from TB, 50% of Fleury cap
DET out: nothing

Really this can be two separate deals (Fleury dump and Johnson dump) and any team with 3.5m cap space can replace DET. The rumor is that a 3-team trade with Fleury would involve the third team getting a 1st to retain 50%. This 1st would come from VGK, not the team receiving Fleury.

So it doesn't cost Vegas anything to dump the Fluery contract that has a 7M caphit and 13M in real cash owed the next two years. But it costs Tampa a 1st + 3rd to dump Johnson?

 

[8999]

So it doesn't cost Vegas anything to dump the Fluery contract that has a 7M caphit and 13M in real cash owed the next two years. But it costs Tampa a 1st + 3rd to dump Johnson?

It does cost VGK a first. They are sending the one they get from TB to DET.

They are paying to dump 3.5m x 2 to DET. And they basically give away Fleury @ 50% for free without needing to add to CHI.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

What is your Value to take on MAF 3.5M for Chicago. Or do you really think they plan on running Delia/Subban?

I thought Lehner was hurt?

Honestly MAF@ 50%+ a 2nd or Roy for Zack Smith if VGK is still looking to move him.

 

[HoseEmDown]

It does cost VGK a first. They are sending the one they get from TB to DET.

They are paying to dump 3.5m x 2 to DET. And they basically give away Fleury @ 50% for free without needing to add to CHI.

No it costs them nothing. They dump Fluery at full cap and not give up any pieces of their own while getting pieces back. It's costing Tampa a 1st + 3rd to dump less cap in Johnson, I know he's signed longer, but Fluery is essentially dumped for nothing. Tampa could just cut Vegas out and dump Johnson on Detroit for probably less and they could potentially retain some as well and not pay as high a price.

 

[8999]

No it costs them nothing. They dump Fluery at full cap and not give up any pieces of their own while getting pieces back. It's costing Tampa a 1st + 3rd to dump less cap in Johnson, I know he's signed longer, but Fluery is essentially dumped for nothing. Tampa could just cut Vegas out and dump Johnson on Detroit for probably less and they could potentially retain some as well and not pay as high a price.

I agree that these deals don't need to happen together. But the point is if it reportedly costs a 1st to dump 3.5mx2, what will it cost to dump 5mx4?

3.5mx2 with M-NTC vs. 5mx4 with NTC is not a minor difference. Taking on the Johnson cap is not 'nothing'. But for argument's sake, say TB only needs to spend a 1st (and no 3rd)... does it work then?

If TB can similarly find a team willing to take Johnson @ 50% for free maybe it doesn't cost as much to dump the other half to a 3rd team. But doubt that 2.5mx4 will be cheaper to dump than 3.5mx2.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

Um points for creativity but this is absolutely abysmal for the Blackhawks.

 

[Jamie Winston]

Do u mean Vegas gives a 1st rounder? Oh no lord good god you think Chicago gives up a 1st and a 2nd round pick when Chicago (pending something big happening) is a lottery team... oh this is creatively stupid.

 

[HoseEmDown]

I agree that these deals don't need to happen together. But the point is if it reportedly costs a 1st to dump 3.5mx2, what will it cost to dump 5mx4?

3.5mx2 with M-NTC vs. 5mx4 with NTC is not a minor difference. Taking on the Johnson cap is not 'nothing'. But for argument's sake, say TB only needs to spend a 1st (and no 3rd)... does it work then?

If TB can similarly find a team willing to take Johnson @ 50% for free maybe it doesn't cost as much to dump the other half to a 3rd team. But doubt that 2.5mx4 will be cheaper to dump than 3.5mx2.

But you don't have Vegas dumping 3.5 x 2 you have them dumping 7 x 2. I haven't heard what the cost is to dump Johnson so it's hard to compare right now. You can manage ypur cap with a higher paid skater than a goalie if both aren't playing up to their contracts. A 7M goalie who might not be a clear starter anymore is not easy to take on. A 5M forward who isn't scoring like in the past isn't ideal but you can at least play them every night and get some use out of them. Johnson's NTC becomes modified next season and he's shown he's willing to waive so that aspect shouldn't matter in these deals.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Uhh...

Chicago ain't giving a 1st and 2nd for MAF, even with 50% retention.

 

[8999]

But you don't have Vegas dumping 3.5 x 2 you have them dumping 7 x 2. I haven't heard what the cost is to dump Johnson so it's hard to compare right now. You can manage ypur cap with a higher paid skater than a goalie if both aren't playing up to their contracts. A 7M goalie who might not be a clear starter anymore is not easy to take on. A 5M forward who isn't scoring like in the past isn't ideal but you can at least play them every night and get some use out of them. Johnson's NTC becomes modified next season and he's shown he's willing to waive so that aspect shouldn't matter in these deals.

Ok pretend it's just 2 teams.

VGK can either:
1) Trade Fleury @ 50% to CHI for future considerations (i.e., nothing) and retain 3.5mx2.
or
2) Trade Fleury @100% to CHI while adding a 1st as a sweetener to take the whole salary.

The 1st round pick is only covering 50%, not 100%.

Yes, they are moving 7mx2 but only half of it is a 'dump' that requires sweetening b/c Fleury reportedly has enough value to at least some teams as a player @ 50%. If no teams have a real hockey need for Fleury, nobody would take on the full 7mx2 for just a 1st round pick.

Not really arguing whether Fleury is more attractive than Johnson. Would be thrilled if TJ could be unloaded for less than a 1st round pick.

 

[Pertti]

About month ago offer(in here) was Fleury(50%) +2nd for Subban, I thought it was close and most of blackawks fans thought it was bad.

 

[Oddbob]

Based on what I've heard, I think the more realistic version is something like this:

CHI in: Fleury @ 50% retained
CHI out: nothing

VGK in: Johnson, 3rd from TB
VGK out: Fleury (no retention)

TB in: nothing
TB out: Johnson, 1st, 3rd

DET in: 1st from TB, 50% of Fleury cap
DET out: nothing

Really this can be two separate deals (Fleury dump and Johnson dump) and any team with 3.5m cap space can replace DET. The rumor is that a 3-team trade with Fleury would involve the third team getting a 1st to retain 50%. This 1st would come from VGK, not the team receiving Fleury.

So Chicago gets a still decent goalie for nothing? Don't think so, Fleury is better than some of the other goalies out there and at 50% retention he would be relatively cheap for the goalie spot.

 

[Halla]

so detroit is gonna get a pair of 1sts and seconds for eating 3.5 cap and a 3rd?

LOL

 

[TBF1972]

what a divergence in value for a retained MAF - once at 3.5m and once at 4.0m. you wouldn't guess it's twice the same player:

Here is a rather Elaborate trade proposal:

Part 1:

TB trades Johnson + 1st + 2nd to Det for "future considerations"

Part 2:

Det trades Johnson + 3rd round pick (Vegas's old pick) to Vegas
For MAF (no retention)

Part 3:
Det trades MAF (50% Retention - 3.5M) to Chicago for a 1st and 2nd round pick


What each team gets:
Detroit Obviously lots of picks.
Vegas Gets a 2C back so Glass is 3rd line C, and dumps fleury's full deal.
Chicago gets a cheap/quality Goalie or 2 years.
TB buys cap space to sign RFA's

If Johnson doesn't sound like a worthwhile player for Vegas, Does Gourde make it work??

hypothetical:
Vegas won AlexP sweepstakes they really only have to protect him and Shea in exp dr.
Are trying to move MAF he's 7m per x 2.
It's not clear LV has enuf in futures that I want that would work, but let's say they retain 3m per on MAF [who NY does not want] down to 4m.
Would you do a three way?
to NYR
from LV, minimum of
LV 2021 + 2022 1sts + NJ 2021 2nd
Cody Glass
+ something else mutually agreeable from LV
from Preds
NAS 2021 2nd + tomasino
to LV
Deangelo
to Nashville
from Rangers
Buchnevich + Strome
from LV
MAF retained
something like that?
Buch shoots lefty but does either W, proven good enuf to play w/Kreider + Zib,
Strome good facilitator with sniper [Panarin], will fit proportionately to his linemates and is a righty shot C who can slide to RW
in both cases, just want to avoid long term cap, and already give mo mins to Kakko, Krav, Chytil, Gauthier, and Nils L
Vegas adds possible emerging Zubov level RD they can protect in exp dr
Preds
get solid short term net boost, add rfa guys for now, both in mid 20s can be w/team another 4-5 yrs.

with 3.5m retention he is worth a 1st and a 2nd
with 3m retention you have to pay 2x1st, a second and glass + an add, while getting back deangelo

if i add those two trades up, deangelo's value must be around 3x1st, 2x2nd and glass. mcdavid territory

 

[TBF1972]

Here is a rather Elaborate trade proposal:

Part 1:

TB trades Johnson + 1st + 2nd to Det for "future considerations"

Part 2:

Det trades Johnson + 3rd round pick (Vegas's old pick) to Vegas
For MAF (no retention)

Part 3:
Det trades MAF (50% Retention - 3.5M) to Chicago for a 1st and 2nd round pick


What each team gets:
Detroit Obviously lots of picks.
Vegas Gets a 2C back so Glass is 3rd line C, and dumps fleury's full deal.
Chicago gets a cheap/quality Goalie or 2 years.
TB buys cap space to sign RFA's

If Johnson doesn't sound like a worthwhile player for Vegas, Does Gourde make it work??

seems like you badly messed up somewhere (actually everywhere) and artificially generated value for detroit. let's just eliminate detroit from the equation to demonstrate it:

part 1:
tb trades johnson + 2nd to vegas
for maf (no retention)

part 2:
tb trades maf (50% retention - 3.5m) to chicago
for a 1st and 2nd round pick

tampa only saves 1.5m in cap the first two years, but the full johnson cap hit the remeining two years. they also get back a first rounder and upgrade their own 2nd into chicago 2nd

you see?

 

[8999]

So Chicago gets a still decent goalie for nothing? Don't think so, Fleury is better than some of the other goalies out there and at 50% retention he would be relatively cheap for the goalie spot.

The Fleury parts are based on the reported structure of a 3-team deal VGK was trying to pursue but didn't pull the trigger on because of the 1st rd pick asking price of the 'middle' team for retaining half of the cap hit. Bottom line, the middle team would have done it for a 1st and they don't care who is paying.

If VGK wanted to push for the team receiving Fleury to send something back, that would go to VGK, not the middle team.

Regarding the OP, even if it were somehow realistic, VGK would just do Part 3 themselves if that were the return and then use the 1st to dump 50% to another team and pocket a 2nd.

 

[8999]

seems like you badly messed up somewhere (actually everywhere) and artificially generated value for detroit. let's just eliminate detroit from the equation to demonstrate it:

part 1:
tb trades johnson + 2nd to vegas
for maf (no retention)

part 2:
tb trades maf (50% retention - 3.5m) to chicago
for a 1st and 2nd round pick

tampa only saves 1.5m in cap the first two years, but the full johnson cap hit the remeining two years. they also get back a first rounder and upgrade their own 2nd into chicago 2nd

you see?

This. But to make it even more clear and simple, the OP in Parts 1 and 2 has TB paying DET a 1st and 2nd for the 'service' of moving Johnson + a 3rd to VGK on their behalf.