OT: Covid-19 (Part 42) All Night Long

[Crusher117]

For traveling, yes.
but going to a restaurant or a concert, I wouldn't want to.

Arruda already stated he didn't want a local covid passport. I doubt we see this happen. However, I can see private companies ask for double vaccination proof to enter mass events (bell center and such) and that would be in their right.

Covid Travelling passport will definitely be a thing tho.

 

[azcanuck]

Attack on you? Not a all! You brought up a tweet and I said that the guy brings nothing to the table except his opinion. I seldom attack posters on this forum. If you've posted for while, you should know this.

There is an underlying context to his tweet. Like others on both sides. So that's why I never take opinions at face value on Twitter. For me, Twitter is a great way to get the latest breaking news. Opinions on all sides don't interest me on Twitter.

Even on this thread, I try to stay out of the political debates.

I can't figure out why you think I'm attacking you.

No not me. LOL. The guy that wrote the tweet.

 

[waffledave]

Despite his bias on issues is his tweet inaccurate. You're creating a red herring argument.

He said "They are more insane then even the wackiest leftist run USA city /state." This is an opinion, not a fact. Why are you going on flapping about "accuracy" for an obviously biased opinion? Did you read the whole thing?

 

[Deebs]

For traveling, yes.
but going to a restaurant or a concert, I wouldn't want to.

See and I would for sure even though it won't happen. Unless there's a legitimate medical reason you can't get the vaccine, there is really no good reason. Imo of course

 

[dinodebino]

No not me. LOL. The guy that wrote the tweet.

Ah! Him! Lol
Not attacking him. Just don't think he brings anything. Yes, we have a curfew. And...? That's what I meant. He's entitled to his opinion. I just don't value it, is all. I could comment it by saying that somebody entrenched in his religious beliefs calling others wacko is pretty interesting. But I won't go there. Or did I?

 

[ClasslessGuy]

Interesting discussion with my sister in law yesterday that believe her blood can fight this virus and don't need anything else, won't take the vaccine. I like events / facebook post etc like that because it's easier to eliminate those people from your life :p

 

[PavelBrendl]

He said "They are more insane then even the wackiest leftist run USA city /state." This is an opinion, not a fact. Why are you going on flapping about "accuracy" for an obviously biased opinion? Did you read the whole thing?

The tweet was just a virtue signalling shitpost. Its quotation of it on here is the same. It serves literally not a single other purpose.

Some people just don't like when others hold different values/beliefs, so they try turning it into an argument to see who's really king of Internet Debate Mountain.

 

[Lshap]

But California and other states that totally shut down economies had worse outcomes.

Covid gave some governors an opportunity to flex and using their own version of science as cover.

It was shown to be a false narrative. Some people accept being controlled out of fear. It works.

Economic death to many were far worse than any risk of Covid. It will never be able to be measured in the same extent.

The 'control' argument is nonsense. It promotes the paranoia that governments are controlling this for self-gain. Truth is most regulations and measures are desperate attempts to catch up with the science. It's a mess of half-understood data and pandering for votes. Some measures actually work, some are useless, none are expressions of power over the downtrodden.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

The 'control' argument is nonsense. It promotes the paranoia that governments are controlling this for self-gain. Truth is most regulations and measures are desperate attempts to catch up with the science. It's a mess of half-understood data and pandering for votes. Some measures actually work, some are useless, none are expressions of power over the downtrodden.

Ive always found the government self gain angle to be strange. Canada has paid so much in EI, lost tax income, lost money buying vaccines and the economy will take a while to recover.

How would it benefit them? It’s such an odd argument that some people use.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

"works". Stay scared my friend.

17k people died of covid in Arizona.
24k in Canada

and you know, we have over 5 times the population.

safety measures do work but like anything in life some work better than others. A discussion about which are best or needed is better suited than dismissing the facts. Less people per capita have died from covid here and it’s still 24k too many.

 

[overlords]

The 'control' argument is nonsense. It promotes the paranoia that governments are controlling this for self-gain. Truth is most regulations and measures are desperate attempts to catch up with the science. It's a mess of half-understood data and pandering for votes. Some measures actually work, some are useless, none are expressions of power over the downtrodden.

Kinda contradicting yourself there a bit. Self gain does not necessarily imply some arbitrary show of power and pandering for votes can definitely be slotted in the 'self-gain' category. No politician lets a crisis go to waste, left right moderate or whatever. Are we really going to ignore the reasons for the feds dragging their feet on shutting down international travel to virus hot spots? It's votes. Their bs'ing us about masks not working because they borked our PPE supply? Face saving. The non response on China using their Canadian surrogates to buy out medical supplies and ship them back home? Those decisions all cost lives, but most Canadians have been well trained to turn their ire on neighbors rather than those with the most power and responsibility to keep these situations from ever occurring in the first place. Accountability isn't a one way street.

Ive always found the government self gain angle to be strange. Canada has paid so much in EI, lost tax income, lost money buying vaccines and the economy will take a while to recover.

How would it benefit them? It’s such an odd argument that some people use.

This is a strange take. You're under the impression that politicians themselves will be paying for this or answering for it? You don't see how giving away mountains of free cash can't have some sort of benefit for those doling it out?

 

[LyricalLyricist]

This is a strange take. You're under the impression that politicians themselves will be paying for this or answering for it? You don't see how giving away mountains of free cash can't have some sort of benefit for those doling it out?

Be specific about what you’re accusing. Talking in vague terms suggests there’s nothing but conspiracy.

How do these lockdowns help Legault for example?

 

[Edgy]

its not so much that it's misinformation but those type of comments stopped being funny a year ago. Right now, they just look/sound stupid.

Ha! The ''ironing'' is delicious.

 

[overlords]

Be specific about what you’re accusing. Talking in vague terms suggests there’s nothing but conspiracy.

How do these lockdowns help Legault for example?

You could have just answered the question, you know. I have a whole other half of a post you chose not to quote that had several examples. Do you not believe that those who can dole out taxpayer money with reckless abandon to voters have nothing to gain from it? Be honest now.

Does one have to name every mistake every politician has made for any criticism to be valid? Were you not around when lots of people were criticizing Legault for loosening restrictions specifically for christmas? That was a popularity move that most people saw right through, and they weren't wrong. It was a decision so distanced from reality that he had to walk it back once the numbers made it clear. Hell, I can quote people from this very thread accusing him of ignoring the greater Montreal region because he doesn't get votes here. At least I hear Legault take shit on a regular basis, though.

You want to cover Plante next or..?

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

Life is 95% back to normal in Texas. Walked into a restaurant yesterday wall to wall people. No mask mandate and cases are down. I think alot of it has to do with folks getting vaccinated. I am not a fan of getting the vaccine but I got it a month ago.

good on you for getting the vaccine despite not being a fan. it's the right move

 

[ahmedou]

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

But California and other states that totally shut down economies had worse outcomes.

Covid gave some governors an opportunity to flex and using their own version of science as cover.

It was shown to be a false narrative. Some people accept being controlled out of fear. It works.

Economic death to many were far worse than any risk of Covid. It will never be able to be measured in the same extent.

hey there hi I live in California

so it turns out that during the pandemic the death rate per 100,000 in California was 157, compared to 238 in Arizona. if Arizona had followed California's stricter policies, by my count (4067 - (4067 / 238 *157)) ~1384 people might have lived. you wanna tell the families of those 1384 people that "economic death" is worse than actual death?

for context, on September 11 around 3000 people died, and 20 years later it's still "never forget" so

more fun facts:

- California currently has the best rate per 100,000 people in the nation (source: Mayo Clinic)
- California finished the year 2020 with a 15B budget surplus (source: Bloomberg)
- California's unemployment rate peaked at 16% in Apr 2020 and has since been cut in half at 8.3%; for Arizona it's 14.2% > 6.7%, showing that their respective economies are recovering at the same rate (source: US Dept of Labor)

if you're gonna come after us better come equipped with facts instead of vague Don't Tread On Me opinions

 

[azcanuck]

hey there hi I live in California

so it turns out that during the pandemic the death rate per 100,000 in California was 157, compared to 238 in Arizona. if Arizona had followed California's stricter policies, by my count (4067 - (4067 / 238 *157)) ~1384 people might have lived. you wanna tell the families of those 1384 people that "economic death" is worse than actual death?

for context, on September 11 around 3000 people died, and 20 years later it's still "never forget" so

more fun facts:

- California currently has the best rate per 100,000 people in the nation (source: Mayo Clinic)
- California finished the year 2020 with a 15B budget surplus (source: Bloomberg)
- California's unemployment rate peaked at 16% in Apr 2020 and has since been cut in half at 8.3%; for Arizona it's 14.2% > 6.7%, showing that their respective economies are recovering at the same rate (source: US Dept of Labor)

if you're gonna come after us better come equipped with facts instead of vague Don't Tread On Me opinions

You're not accounting at all for the deaths from suicide, depression, for loss of job and business. It's real .

And here's a good analysis of California vs. Florida. The Florida Versus California Showdown – AIER

Why is everyone moving out of California? . People are leaving in mass from California . The Governor is being recalled. You paint a strangely rosy picture of the state overrun with homeless people.
Why Texans Don’t Want Any More Californians - The Atlantic

Texas vs. California Covid (despite Texas being open and CA. locked down)

Texas' per-capita infection rate remains well below California's. On Wednesday, the California Department of Public Health reported 8,155 confirmed cases of COVID-19 there, or about 20.64 cases per 100,000 California residents. On the same day, Texas Health and Human Services reported 3,997 confirmed cases in the state, or about 13.78 cases per 100,000 residents. How Do Texas' Coronavirus Numbers Compare to California's? | Dallas Observer

Again let me ask you why is thousands and thousand of people leaving Ca?2020 Migration Trends U-Haul Ranks 50 States By Migration Growth | U-Haul Blog | U-Haul (uhaul.com) People want their freedom and want to make a living and they know the draconian measures dont work.

U-Haul customers made Texas and Florida their top two destinations Texas had the largest net gain of one-way U-Haul trucks for three consecutive years before Florida flipped the order and became No. 1 last year. Texas is second for growth, and Florida third, for 2020.
California ranks last by a wide margin, supplanting Illinois as the state with the greatest net loss of U-Haul trucks. California has ranked 48th or lower since 2016. Illinois has been 49th or 50th since 2015, when U-Haul began ranking states based on annual net gain.

 

[Lshap]

Kinda contradicting yourself there a bit. Self gain does not necessarily imply some arbitrary show of power and pandering for votes can definitely be slotted in the 'self-gain' category. No politician lets a crisis go to waste, left right moderate or whatever. Are we really going to ignore the reasons for the feds dragging their feet on shutting down international travel to virus hot spots? It's votes. Their bs'ing us about masks not working because they borked our PPE supply? Face saving. The non response on China using their Canadian surrogates to buy out medical supplies and ship them back home? Those decisions all cost lives, but most Canadians have been well trained to turn their ire on neighbors rather than those with the most power and responsibility to keep these situations from ever occurring in the first place. Accountability isn't a one way street.

Yeah, my prose was sloppy. My point was that governments don't gain from imposing restrictions. You don't gain power, votes, money or goodwill by telling your constituents they can't do something. Telling people they have to be home by 9:30 pisses them off and doesn't give you back an ounce of power. Restrictions are a government's messy attempt to do their job and respond to a crisis. In many cases their response was half-assed, reactive, fearful, unscientific, etc. But the restrictions also saved lives and bought time. There's no evil plot to gain control; there's just a bunch of average people chasing a rapidly changing situation.

 

[waffledave]

You're not accounting at all for the deaths from suicide, depression, for loss of job and business. It's real .

If it's real then I'm sure you will have no problem at all finding numbers to back up your point, right?

 

[SOLR]

Kinda contradicting yourself there a bit. Self gain does not necessarily imply some arbitrary show of power and pandering for votes can definitely be slotted in the 'self-gain' category. No politician lets a crisis go to waste, left right moderate or whatever. Are we really going to ignore the reasons for the feds dragging their feet on shutting down international travel to virus hot spots? It's votes.

Airports: It's not for votes at all. They did not "drag their feet". That is a good dose of citizenry not understanding, in the least, governmental-level problems. And Ford tried to exploit these problems for political gains, because Ford.

1) The airport had to stay open, like HAD to stay open. At any given time there are 2-3 million Canadians outside the country, they needed to come back and this was going to take a few months (I was one of those). Selectively closing the border would have brought others problems that would have been very expensive to fix while having no easy and vetted staff to accomplish it. Did they manage this perfectly? Probably not, but they probably took the least resource extensive road as a whole and most importantly followed pre-established protocols.
2) Geopolitics, as Canada we have to maintain some rule-based system of behaviour to maintain our standing. If you think that you get to travel in 80%+ of countries in the world without a visa for nothing?
3) There is a "5 eyes" line of behaviour, it's not really surprising that the politics of the first 3 months are about the same in the US, Can, UK, Australia and NZ, the only difference is that the island countries were ordered to shut the borders. There is more geopolitics that explains this. NZ is deemed as the "refuge" in all their plans, they are to shut the border at any sniff of trouble. Australia has to worry about China in ways we don't have to. Go live in NZ if you want borders shut for anything (btw, that means you are stuck inside the country often).

Now past the first 3 months, there is a lot more to discuss on the politics, but the first 3 months I can't fault them much.

 

[HockeyAddict]

You're not accounting at all for the deaths from suicide, depression, for loss of job and business. It's real .

And here's a good analysis of California vs. Florida. The Florida Versus California Showdown – AIER

Why is everyone moving out of California? . People are leaving in mass from California . The Governor is being recalled. You paint a strangely rosy picture of the state overrun with homeless people.
Why Texans Don’t Want Any More Californians - The Atlantic

Texas vs. California Covid (despite Texas being open and CA. locked down)

Texas' per-capita infection rate remains well below California's. On Wednesday, the California Department of Public Health reported 8,155 confirmed cases of COVID-19 there, or about 20.64 cases per 100,000 California residents. On the same day, Texas Health and Human Services reported 3,997 confirmed cases in the state, or about 13.78 cases per 100,000 residents. How Do Texas' Coronavirus Numbers Compare to California's? | Dallas Observer

Again let me ask you why is thousands and thousand of people leaving Ca?2020 Migration Trends U-Haul Ranks 50 States By Migration Growth | U-Haul Blog | U-Haul (uhaul.com) People want their freedom and want to make a living and they know the draconian measures dont work.

U-Haul customers made Texas and Florida their top two destinations Texas had the largest net gain of one-way U-Haul trucks for three consecutive years before Florida flipped the order and became No. 1 last year. Texas is second for growth, and Florida third, for 2020.
California ranks last by a wide margin, supplanting Illinois as the state with the greatest net loss of U-Haul trucks. California has ranked 48th or lower since 2016. Illinois has been 49th or 50th since 2015, when U-Haul began ranking states based on annual net gain.

Can you provide some quantifiable analysis that deaths from suicide/depression due to lockdowns >> deaths due to COVID19... otherwise its an opinion, not factual.

Also, you use a single 'proxy' metric (inter-state migration) to argue that Arizona/Florida have much better economies but if you actually look at GDP/Capita, it shows a very different picture than what you infer;

State (GDP/Capita)
California ($70,662)
Illinois ($61,713)
Florida ($44,267)
Arizona ($44,161)

GDP by State — A Full Rundown 2021 | Balancing Everything

 

[llamateizer]

You're not accounting at all for the deaths from suicide, depression, for loss of job and business. It's real .

And here's a good analysis of California vs. Florida. The Florida Versus California Showdown – AIER

Why is everyone moving out of California? . People are leaving in mass from California . The Governor is being recalled. You paint a strangely rosy picture of the state overrun with homeless people.
Why Texans Don’t Want Any More Californians - The Atlantic

Texas vs. California Covid (despite Texas being open and CA. locked down)

Texas' per-capita infection rate remains well below California's. On Wednesday, the California Department of Public Health reported 8,155 confirmed cases of COVID-19 there, or about 20.64 cases per 100,000 California residents. On the same day, Texas Health and Human Services reported 3,997 confirmed cases in the state, or about 13.78 cases per 100,000 residents. How Do Texas' Coronavirus Numbers Compare to California's? | Dallas Observer

Again let me ask you why is thousands and thousand of people leaving Ca?2020 Migration Trends U-Haul Ranks 50 States By Migration Growth | U-Haul Blog | U-Haul (uhaul.com) People want their freedom and want to make a living and they know the draconian measures dont work.

U-Haul customers made Texas and Florida their top two destinations Texas had the largest net gain of one-way U-Haul trucks for three consecutive years before Florida flipped the order and became No. 1 last year. Texas is second for growth, and Florida third, for 2020.
California ranks last by a wide margin, supplanting Illinois as the state with the greatest net loss of U-Haul trucks. California has ranked 48th or lower since 2016. Illinois has been 49th or 50th since 2015, when U-Haul began ranking states based on annual net gain.

AZ has higher suicide rate than average US. why suddenly, it's an important aspect? where were you before covid? were you actively militating against suicide? the problem is there for a long time and NEVER I heard people caring that much about suicide. I guarantee you that people will ignore suicidal after covid. That's what pisses me the most.


top line is AZ, bottom line is US

The thing is, yes, I'm pretty sure that there is higher suicide rate than before. what are the numbers? IDK, because there isn't much data to back it up and there isn't big impact.


Explore Suicide in Arizona | 2020 Annual Report

 

[Adam Michaels]

At Airport Trudeau, they will open the first drive-in vaccination area. It will gradually open its doors. And they will be able to vaccinate about 4,000 people per day with this.

 

[waffledave]

The thing is, yes, I'm pretty sure that there is higher suicide rate than before. what are the numbers? IDK, because there isn't much data to back it up and there isn't big impact.

They have done studies already on this, not yet for the entire US but for individual states, including states with strict lockdown measures, and they showed no noticeable increase in suicide rates compared to previous years. It was actually not what was expected.