OT: Coronavirus XXXIV: As 2021 Approaches, Hopefully The Worst Is Behind Us

[Little Fury]

Microsoft Word - YOUTH_Definition_2013-1-23.docx (un.org)

Defined as "15-24yrs of age.

Anything else?

However, in both the reports, the Secretary-General also recognized that, apart from that statistical definition, the meaning of the term ‘youth’ varies in different societies around the world.

Legally, a 21 year old is an adult by every measure. I know the guy acted like a baby but there's no need to infantilize him.

 

[bellagiobob]

Yeah, its all silly. At the point that they removed 20-30 people from the ice it was compliant. At that point the reasonable thing is to tell some to go home, watch awhile from the squad car, and drive away. That they escalated this into criminal charges, uncalled for. As mentioned it would help if any of the rules were defined beyond "use commonsense"

Would be nice if the police responding used any of that.

They could have even used natural herd commonsense and let the people kind of sort it out. Just say we need only 10-20 people on ice, rest have to leave for now. Enough people would leave of their own accord. Probably some of the people were about done anyway.

"Despite signage outlining the rules at the site, Bylaw Services was called," police wrote in a statement. "They explained the restrictions but could not get the users to comply. Due to their non-compliance and the size of the group, we were called to assist."

 

[Drivesaitl]

However, in both the reports, the Secretary-General also recognized that, apart from that statistical definition, the meaning of the term ‘youth’ varies in different societies around the world.

Legally, a 21 year old is an adult by every measure. I know the guy acted like a baby but there's no need to infantilize him.

Silly. There was nothing wrong with using the term "youth" and you know that.

But even specific to Canada then..

Definition of Youth
According to a 2010 paper by United Way of Calgary and Area, the federal government uses several definitions of youth: Statistics Canada defines youth between 16-28 years, whereas for Human Resources and Skills Development Canada it is 15-24.

Keep arguing if you want.

 

[harpoon]

I think through all of this its good to understand that no legit crime had been committed here. It was a public ordinance specific to the pandemic that was made in the first place on flimsy evidence that outdoor "gathering" had to be curtailed

I’m sympathetic to this point, and I have no doubt that is what the young man was thinking when he took the unfortunate decision of not complying with officers’ directions.

The rest of your argument is flimsy at best. They make the consequences too severe so people try to run away? Really? That’s a very surprising take coming from an adult with decades of life experience. It is the job of the police to enforce the law in public settings. However ‘unjust’ a law may seem to an individual it is the sworn duty of the police to take action when it is contravened. They don’t make the laws, enforcement is their only responsibility. Once an individual chooses to disregard their authority, particularly in a public setting where other citizens are observing, escalation is the only outcome that is ever going to happen. As @Stoneman89 said above ... it’s ‘yes sir’, ‘no sir’ and choosing to do anything other than that makes one an idiot.

I see some people arguing that the cops over reacted. Please, Ocean is lucky that he was in Canada. Hopefully he has learned and is never so stupid as to ignore officers again. There are plenty of countries where his behaviour would have been far, far more costly to him. And not just in terms of money. People should be showing this video to their children so as to ensure that they never behave like that when confronted by authorities - for any reason.

 

[bellagiobob]

A thread by Dr. Deena Hinshaw

Here is a summary of today’s #COVID19AB update:

Thank you to the many ABs who celebrated Christmas safely. Case numbers continue to decline, in part, due to less people presenting for testing over the past several days, which is not surprising due to the holidays. (1/12)

On Dec 23, 1,007 new cases were ID’d & 15.5+K tests completed. 30 deaths were reported. On Dec 24, 1,191 new cases were ID’d, 17.8+K tests completed & 18 deaths were reported. On Dec. 25, we ID’d 914 new cases, conducted 14.1+K tests & 17 deaths were reported. (2/12)

On Dec 26, we ID’d 459 new cases, completed 6.8+K tests & 27 deaths were reported. On Dec. 27, 917 new cases were ID’d, 9.6+K tests completed & 20 deaths were reported. Our positivity rate over the past few days has ranged from 6.4% to 9.6%. (3/12)

The trend in those needing hospital & ICU has not come down. There are 878 ppl in hospital, incl 148 in ICU. My sympathies go out to them & the families, friends & health care workers who are supporting and caring for them. (4/12)

My condolences go to loved ones mourning the loss of the individuals who died over the past 5 days. I encourage anyone dealing with loss/grief to reach out for support from family, friends or through resources available at . You are not alone. (5/12) (ahs.ca/helpintoughtim…)

Contact tracers continue to work through the holidays & are reaching out to as many ppl as possible. I want to thank them, and the Albertans who help them do their work by answering their questions and following their instructions. (6/12)

Thank you to AHS for continuing to provide health care workers w/ vaccine through the holidays. 6,016 doses of Pfizer vaccine were administered over the last 2 weeks & this work will continue as more vaccine arrives & doses are distributed around the province. (7/12)

In AB, we have ID’d a single case of the same COVID-19 found in UK in someone who recently arrived from there. This indiv did all they were supposed to do, following quarantine & other public health measures, and at this point there is no evidence of any spread. (8/12)

Declining numbers in hosp. & ICU COVID cases reflects our actions of 1-2 weeks ago. But we cannot become complacent. Our healthcare system is still under significant pressure. We must continue to follow public health orders to avoid a spike in mid-Jan. & spread in 2021. (9/12)

Let’s finish the year strong by following the details/spirit of the public health orders in place. Let’s resist the urge to gather w/ anyone outside our household or 2 close contacts for those who live alone. Let’s plan virtual New Year’s Eve celebrations to ring in 2021. (10/12)

The New Year holds a lot of promise, especially with the expanded roll-out of vaccines in the coming weeks & months. Let’s start it on the right path with lower case numbers and reduced spread. (11/12)

My next in-person update will be on Tuesday, Jan. 5. We will provide online case reporting tomorrow and Wednesday, followed by a break from Dec. 31 to Jan. 3. (12/12)

 

[Drivesaitl]

"Despite signage outlining the rules at the site, Bylaw Services was called," police wrote in a statement. "They explained the restrictions but could not get the users to comply. Due to their non-compliance and the size of the group, we were called to assist."

I haven't seen one picture yet or citation saying what the signage terms were on that particular rink. I even seen a couple of Edmonton community rinks that posted a restriction, and several that have not. Again rinks are standardized playing surfaces. usually of a pretty defined size. There would be nothing wrong with the province just stipulating a capacity in their restrictions, which would avoid a lot of confusion. Next, in the dark, if a sign is posted somewhere around a rink, are you supposed to be able to read said sign in the dark?

Why can't the province just state 10 capacity or 20 skaters capacity and be done with it? I mean the youth was clearing arguing about the restriction, was actually asking the Constables what the rule was, and they couldn't tell him in clear terms. Because the restrictions are not at all clear. If you remember I was saying that would prove to be a problem at the outset.

 

[Little Fury]

Silly. There was nothing wrong with using the term "youth" and you know that.

But even specific to Canada then..

Definition of Youth
According to a 2010 paper by United Way of Calgary and Area, the federal government uses several definitions of youth: Statistics Canada defines youth between 16-28 years, whereas for Human Resources and Skills Development Canada it is 15-24.

Keep arguing if you want.

Right because that's the definition you had in mind when you used it. For sure.

If this guy had done something else illegal, say driven drunk into a schoolbus or something, there's no way you'd refer to him as such.

 

[bellagiobob]

I haven't seen one picture yet or citation saying what the signage terms were on that particular rink. I even seen a couple of Edmonton community rinks that posted a restriction, and several that have not. Again rinks are standardized playing surfaces. usually of a pretty defined size. There would be nothing wrong with the province just stipulating a capacity in their restrictions, which would avoid a lot of confusion. Next, in the dark, if a sign is posted somewhere around a rink, are you supposed to be able to read said sign in the dark?

Why can't the province just state 10 capacity or 20 skaters capacity and be done with it? I mean the youth was clearing arguing about the restriction, was actually asking the Constables what the rule was, and they couldn't tell him in clear terms. Because the restrictions are not at all clear. If you remember I was saying that would prove to be a problem at the outset.

They have. https://www.alberta.ca/assets/documents/covid-19-information-guidance-for-winter-recreation.pdf

APPENDIX A: Formula for Calculating the Capacity of Outdoor Skating Rinks
Typically sized outdoor hockey rinks enclosed by boards (approximately 61m x 26m)
Rules for typically sized outdoor hockey rinks enclosed by boards:
- There is a maximum of 50 people that can be on the ice at one time (CMOH Order 25) for rinks of this dimension or greater.
- No competitions, games or events can occur (CMOH Order 39)
- No shinny, tag or pick-up games (CMOH Order 39)
- Non-household participants must be distanced by 2 meters (CMOH Order 26)
- No indoor amenities other than washroom use (CMOH Order 39)

They even give rink dimensions to help you determine maximum capacity.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I’m sympathetic to this point, and I have no doubt that is what the young man was thinking when he took the unfortunate decision of not complying with officers’ directions.

The rest of your argument is flimsy at best. They make the consequences too severe so people try to run away? Really? That’s a very surprising take coming from an adult with decades of life experience. It is the job of the police to enforce the law in public settings. However ‘unjust’ a law may seem to an individual it is the sworn duty of the police to take action when it is contravened. They don’t make the laws, enforcement is their only responsibility. Once an individual chooses to disregard their authority, particularly in a public setting where other citizens are observing, escalation is the only outcome that is ever going to happen. As @stoneman said above ... it’s ‘yes sir’, ‘no sir’ and choosing to do anything other than that makes one an idiot. I see some people arguing that the cops over reacted. Please, Ocean is lucky that he was in Canada. Hopefully he has learned and is never so stupid as to ignore officers again. There are plenty of countries where his behaviour would have been far, far more costly to him. And not just in terms of money. People should be showing this video to their children so as to ensure that they never behave like that when confronted by authorities - for any reason.

Obviously playing devils advocate. Not something I would do. usually I would be stating what Stoneman is stating except for how poorly this situation was dealt with, and it not being at all a typical police response. it was NOT a response to a crime. It was response to an ordinance. That got out of control due to escalation and poor handing of the situation by police. They dealt with this situation as if the guy had murdered somebody and had the knife dripping blood still in his hand...

poetic overstatement on purpose. Not being serious, but flippant.

hey, If you think people skating at a community rink should be dealt with as if they just robbed a bank have at her. I sure don't share the opinion.

 

[Drivesaitl]

They have. https://www.alberta.ca/assets/documents/covid-19-information-guidance-for-winter-recreation.pdf

APPENDIX A: Formula for Calculating the Capacity of Outdoor Skating Rinks
Typically sized outdoor hockey rinks enclosed by boards (approximately 61m x 26m)
Rules for typically sized outdoor hockey rinks enclosed by boards:
- There is a maximum of 50 people that can be on the ice at one time (CMOH Order 25) for rinks of this dimension or greater.
- No competitions, games or events can occur (CMOH Order 39)
- No shinny, tag or pick-up games (CMOH Order 39)
- Non-household participants must be distanced by 2 meters (CMOH Order 26)
- No indoor amenities other than washroom use (CMOH Order 39)

They even give rink dimensions to help you determine maximum capacity.

Thanks for finding this.

But this was NOT there originally. Not at all in what I saw. I suspect this was written in and added after, and would like to see the time stamp on when it was most recently revised. That should be on there, it isn't from what I see. its vaguely dated December 2020.

i don't recall an appendix even being part of the first documentation when they made this. I looked indepth at the time, at the ordinance.

Plus assuming anybody out there playing shinny is going to be able to perform the following calculation in their heads; lol


Step 1: Calculate the area of the rink by measuring the length and width of the rink in meters. 20m x 5m = 100m2 Step 2: Divide this number by 16m2 (this is the amount of space required per individual) 100m2 divided by 16m2 = 6 people Step 3: Multiply by 50% to account for movement of people 6 multiplied by 0.50 = 3 people

I would fail that exam all day. Could not calculate that to win the secret prize...

 

[harpoon]

Keep arguing if you want.

Its ridiculous, but you know he will. If anything the current trend in society is to move back the definition of adulthood to 24/25. What with all the people taking six years to do a four year degree, living in parents basement, not having regular employment, failing to establish credit etc, so few of the milestones generally associated with adulthood are being reached by 18-24 demographic. Apologies and props to those members here who may fall into that age bracket and are living responsible adult lives.

Just so you know, you're 'not an adult' until you're 25

[URL="https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24173194"]Is 25 the new cut-off point for adulthood?[/URL]

 

[Drivesaitl]

Its ridiculous, but you know he will. If anything the current trend in society is to move back the definition of adulthood to 24/25. What with all the people taking six years to do a four year degree, living in parents basement, not having regular employment, failing to establish credit etc, so few of the milestones generally associated with adulthood are being reached by 18-24 demographic. Apologies and props to those members here who may fall into that age bracket and are living responsible adult lives.

Just so you know, you're 'not an adult' until you're 25

Is 25 the new cut-off point for adulthood?

yeah, I know. Generally the concept is shifting, and it being recognized it takes a longer time now to approach adulthood.

Don't mean anything at all derogatory about it, to anybody, just that the term youth is standardized to include the age ranges I cited.

 

[bellagiobob]

Obviously playing devils advocate. Not something I would do. usually I would be stating what Stoneman is stating except for how poorly this situation was dealt with, and it not being at all a typical police response. it was NOT a response to a crime. It was response to an ordinance. That got out of control due to escalation and poor handing of the situation by police. They dealt with this situation as if the guy had murdered somebody and had the knife dripping blood still in his hand...

poetic overstatement on purpose. Not being serious, but flippant.

hey, If you think people skating at a community rink should be dealt with as if they just robbed a bank have at her. I sure don't share the opinion.

The no shinny rule came into effect with the Nov restrictions I believe. Like it or not, it was in place for quite a while. (I personally didn't like the restriction, but that's beside the point) So unless you lived under a rock, people knew what they were, especially those in the hockey community. So let's assume that all 40+ people playing shinny lived under a rock. The bylaw officer came out and asked them to leave. They continued to play. Then the cops were called. Plenty of opportunity for this to not get to this point before the cops came. And again, yes they overreacted, probably should have just let the guy go.

 

[bellagiobob]

Thanks for finding this.

But this was NOT there originally. Not at all in what I saw. I suspect this was written in and added after, and would like to see the time stamp on when it was most recently revised. That should be on there, it isn't from what I see. its vaguely dated December 2020.

i don't recall an appendix even being part of the first documentation when they made this. I looked indepth at the time, at the ordinance.

Plus assuming anybody out there playing shinny is going to be able to perform the following calculation in their heads; lol


Step 1: Calculate the area of the rink by measuring the length and width of the rink in meters. 20m x 5m = 100m2 Step 2: Divide this number by 16m2 (this is the amount of space required per individual) 100m2 divided by 16m2 = 6 people Step 3: Multiply by 50% to account for movement of people 6 multiplied by 0.50 = 3 people

I would fail that exam all day. Could not calculate that to win the secret prize...

All they had to know was the part about ' no shinny' and the math part becomes irrelevant.

 

[Drivesaitl]

The no shinny rule came into effect with the Nov restrictions I believe. Like it or not, it was in place for quite a while. (I personally didn't like the restriction, but that's beside the point) So unless you lived under a rock, people knew what they were, especially those in the hockey community. So let's assume that all 40+ people playing shinny lived under a rock. The bylaw officer came out and asked them to leave. They continued to play. Then the cops were called. Plenty of opportunity for this to not get to this point before the cops came. And again, yes they overreacted, probably should have just let the guy go.

its all good, thanks for the info. But not the first time the province has been playing games with information and revising their restrictions on the fly. Wish I screenshotted the last one, which was not in anyway this precise, or with appendix.

its kind of dishonest for the govt to be changing the rules or descriptions post putting them in enforce, and if they do that, they are required to time stamp the revisions. This not being small quibble. For the restrictions to have legitimate authority alterations and changes should be citationed, documented, when revised, dates changed.

anyway cheers

 

[Drivesaitl]

All they had to know was the part about ' no shinny' and the math part becomes irrelevant.

i still fail at math but one person needs 16m squared? Outdoors? What? I think they even misstyped that. Several of the rinks are stating 2M distancing citing due to covid. 16M is drastically differnt than that.

 

[harpoon]

And again, yes they overreacted, probably should have just let the guy go

How could they ever let him go after everyone else complied except him? That’s not how police officers operate. If anything, refusal to comply is basically begging the cops to make an example of you - especially in a public setting.

@Drivesaitl - it is completely irrelevant whether the law was just/unjust, an ordinance or whatever other excuse you want to hand this person. Cops were called. They made a demand for the rink to be cleared. End of. Individual citizens are mandated by a social contract to comply with officer directions. I know you do so in your own life, why does Ocean get to be special?

 

[Drivesaitl]

How could they ever let him go after everyone else complied except him? That’s not how police officers operate. If anything, refusal to comply is basically begging the cops to make an example of you - especially in a public setting.

@Drivesaitl - it is completely irrelevant whether the law was just/unjust, an ordinance or whatever other excuse you want to hand this person. Cops were called. They made a demand for the rink to be cleared. End of. Individual citizens are mandated by a social contract to comply with officer directions. I know you do so in your own life, why does Ocean get to be special?

I suck at Law too. lol. I admit it. Took highschool Law course and quickly realized that anything I thought should be commonsense does not equate to legal reckoning of it.

I'll cede the point on grounds of my legal and mathematical incompetence. heh


jk aside. I had mentioned before, procedurely, all that had to do was separate the crowd. 39/40 people had left. One of the things you do in crowd management is attend to the people that are complying, work with that, get that going, get those people distanced from vicinity, then the 1 non complaint individual does not have any audience left in which to be non complaint to. Many people remain escalated in a crowd, many of the same can be better escalated without the crowd.

Its somewhat evident in the video that this guy was performing a bit. trying to be a smart ass, trying to be a bad ass. remove the audience. They were all ready to go.

 

[bellagiobob]

How could they ever let him go after everyone else complied except him? That’s not how police officers operate. If anything, refusal to comply is basically begging the cops to make an example of you - especially in a public setting.

@Drivesaitl - it is completely irrelevant whether the law was just/unjust, an ordinance or whatever other excuse you want to hand this person. Cops were called. They made a demand for the rink to be cleared. End of. Individual citizens are mandated by a social contract to comply with officer directions. I know you do so in your own life, why does Ocean get to be special?

Need to take the temperature in the room. Ask him to leave a couple of times, then go to your car and wait for a bit. No one else is going back on the ice at that point. The kid likely would have left in a few minutes with no one else to play with. Just think there's a time to use force and a time to use your head. This was one of the times you've got to use your head.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Latest Ro published by the province. As I suspected the other guy that does the calculations independently made apparent mistakes this time. These figures add up to the average, make much more sense.

R values from December 14-20 (confidence interval)

• Alberta provincewide: 0.92 (0.90-0.93)
• Edmonton Zone: 0.89 (0.86-0.91)
• Calgary Zone: 0.97 (0.97-1.00)
• Rest of Alberta: 0.90 (0.85-0.95)

 

[Stoneman89]

Thanks for finding this.

But this was NOT there originally. Not at all in what I saw. I suspect this was written in and added after, and would like to see the time stamp on when it was most recently revised. That should be on there, it isn't from what I see. its vaguely dated December 2020.

i don't recall an appendix even being part of the first documentation when they made this. I looked indepth at the time, at the ordinance.

Plus assuming anybody out there playing shinny is going to be able to perform the following calculation in their heads; lol


Step 1: Calculate the area of the rink by measuring the length and width of the rink in meters. 20m x 5m = 100m2 Step 2: Divide this number by 16m2 (this is the amount of space required per individual) 100m2 divided by 16m2 = 6 people Step 3: Multiply by 50% to account for movement of people 6 multiplied by 0.50 = 3 people

I would fail that exam all day. Could not calculate that to win the secret prize...

I clearly remember one of the restrictions being NO SHINNY. And anyone that has been following or might have that impact them clearly knows that. No math needed for that.

 

[MaxR11]

I clearly remember one of the restrictions being NO SHINNY. And anyone that has been following or might have that impact them clearly knows that. No math needed for that.

No shinny, max 10 people on the ice since late Nov. Fairly widespread well known info.

 

[Stoneman89]

Need to take the temperature in the room. Ask him to leave a couple of times, then go to your car and wait for a bit. No one else is going back on the ice at that point. The kid likely would have left in a few minutes with no one else to play with. Just think there's a time to use force and a time to use your head. This was one of the times you've got to use your head.

How many times do they need to ask him/tell him? And when they are all there next weekend, do they turn another blind eye? If anything, the rest of them are all laughing at the paper tiger that just came at them. Not sure why we even bother putting in rules and restrictions if people think it's okay to just thumb their noses at them. And we wonder why cases go up.

 

[Stoneman89]

No shinny, max 10 people on the ice since late Nov. Fairly widespread well known info.

This guy knew all that, make no mistake. He just wanted to be a little dickhead, and test the law, maybe get himself on one of those Youtube videos as another "victim."

 

[MaxR11]

Even some of his family members are not backing him....