OT: Coronavirus XXXIII: Moderna Joins Pfizer as the Second Approved Vaccine in the US

[CycloneSweep]

The exception is fine and makes sense. I'm just saying the Dr has a point in that it does open up avenues for some people to circumvent things as well as potentially send the wrong message.
Give some people an inch and they take a mile. Parent eases some rules the kid pushes as far as he/she can go and further. But in this case the benefits may outweigh the risks as it would still be smaller scaled get togethers. I think people like the Dr would have less qualms about the exception if Albertans had shown they were more responsible in previous months.

Yes, you give people an inch they take a mile. So if you can handle a mile, you give them an inch. I guarantee there is probably zero issue with a single staying that entire time with the family. But they say 1 visit to play it safe.

 

[Drivesaitl]

The exception is fine and makes sense. I'm just saying the Dr has a point in that it does open up avenues for some people to circumvent things as well as potentially send the wrong message.
Give some people an inch and they take a mile. Parent eases some rules the kid pushes as far as he/she can go and further. But in this case the benefits may outweigh the risks as it would still be smaller scaled get togethers. I think people like the Dr would have less qualms about the exception if Albertans had shown they were more responsible in previous months.

Albertans, generally, have been excellent throughout the pandemic. Par excellence compared to most similar jurisdiction. That your opinions on Alberta match the Dr's is no surprise, you've tipped your hat countless times in these threads. But the bolded isn't a fact, its a view.

Lets be honest about what the Doctors real intent is what that message, or critiquing every govt Covid response that has gone on. Its brand based. Thats as far as I'll go. She's even stated that.

 

[CycloneSweep]

The Prov Govt, as I've regularly stated deserve more credit than they are given. We've had a much more nuanced and thoughtful response throughout, than most jurisdictions and from early on it was the right call for them to not follow National lead or that of WHO, CDC, etc. I mean Kenney was STATING that as early as FEB/MARCH way before most of the world found out how wrong those entities were throughout the pandemic.

What we actually have is a govt that will sitdown closed doors and discuss what to do for as long as 8hrs at a time. Working hard to come up with potential solutions, responses, this is not platform response we're getting, we're getting uniquely honed responses, targeted measures, allowance of certain exceptions. These are tough calls and they been an informed side of so many of them.

My only real complaint with the government's response is it often took too long. The November 24th measures should of been inacted a few weeks earlier which could of completely prevented the current measures.

The have been slow on the uptick but what they are doing is the right thing to do. Which you could easily argue they were slow because they had more hope that the people in the province would do the right thing on their own than they should have.

But I'm there with you on the what they are doing is thoughtful and measured.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I do think a lot of the doctors did have points and Shandro really f***ed up in so many god damn ways.

But now these doctors are so mad and hateful, they can't see past that hate and think everything they do must be bad in some way. Which is sad.

Like I absolutely hate Shandro and Kenney, I think so much of what they do is awful, but I'm not going to find ways to hate the GOOD things that they do, because that's nonsensical. Like I'm not going to cheer them on or anything but I'm also not going to shit on them and find ways to spin a good thing into the bad.

This is example that its possible to not have a partisan view on all things, all manners of the response. Its all I would expect the DR's to occasionally be able to voice.

The bolded seems rare view these days.

 

[joestevens29]

My only real complaint with the government's response is it often took too long. The November 24th measures should of been inacted a few weeks earlier which could of completely prevented the current measures.

The have been slow on the uptick but what they are doing is the right thing to do. Which you could easily argue they were slow because they had more hope that the people in the province would do the right thing on their own than they should have.

But I'm there with you on the what they are doing is thoughtful and measured.

Tough to say. Didn't someone post something about how Ottawa isn't having much issues with ICU/hospital numbers, yet they are still going into a lockdown

 

[CycloneSweep]

Tough to say. Didn't someone post something about how Ottawa isn't having much issues with ICU/hospital numbers, yet they are still going into a lockdown

Yes, and as I and others have pointed out, with Quebec and the rest of Ontario going into lockdown, having a big city like that within close distance for a lot of people be open, while the rest is not will definitely drive that number up as tons of people from out of town will show up to do the things they can't do elsewhere in the province. People were doing that when Toronto was in lockdown, they would leave the city to go to places around Toronto and caused those numbers to start to rise.

 

[nabob]

The exception is fine and makes sense. I'm just saying the Dr has a point in that it does open up avenues for some people to circumvent things as well as potentially send the wrong message.
Give some people an inch and they take a mile. Parent eases some rules the kid pushes as far as he/she can go and further. But in this case the benefits may outweigh the risks as it would still be smaller scaled get togethers. I think people like the Dr would have less qualms about the exception if Albertans had shown they were more responsible in previous months.

Please stop defending a person who is encouraging people to break Covid gathering laws. This doctor pledged to leave Alberta due to her contempt for Alberta back when Covid numbers were very low. Like you her opinion is based purely on politics.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Tough to say. Didn't someone post something about how Ottawa isn't having much issues with ICU/hospital numbers, yet they are still going into a lockdown

Its a more unique situation. A Lloydminister situation if you will. Ottawa is on the Border with Gatineau, Quebec, separated only by river. It would be hard to live in Ottawa and not sense the ghastly impact of the Pandemic just across the border, river, and not that Ontario as a whole is doing that great either. Ottawa will get hit hard, again, at some point, and they know it.

Ottawa also have suffered around 400 deaths during this pandemic, just the Ottawa side. Not like they have escaped the tragedy.

 

[nabob]

No, she should have just shut her yap on this completely. It made her look very petty and unfeeling. And considering the fact she is on record as being very local about leaving the province due to the earlier doctors dispute, it is obvious she is dragging her political agenda into this, and is going to criticize nearly anything this government does. Interestingly, she has no comment about the declining numbers the last couple weeks, when in the past, she had no problem speaking regularly when things were on the rise.

I can see why she has HK’s unwavering support then. Maybe HK is the doctor?

 

[CycloneSweep]

This is example that its possible to not have a partisan view on all things, all manners of the response. Its all I would expect the DR's to occasionally be able to voice.

The bolded seems rare view these days.

I've lived in this province my whole life and witnessed people bending over backwards to defend everything a Conservative government does no matter if it's good, bad or anything. And it drove me bonkers.

I actively try not to be a hypocrite and be like that. It can be hard when so many around me dont and I wish more people would try to be objective on matters.

 

[Drivesaitl]

No, she should have just shut her yap on this completely. It made her look very petty and unfeeling. And considering the fact she is on record as being very local about leaving the province due to the earlier doctors dispute, it is obvious she is dragging her political agenda into this, and is going to criticize nearly anything this government does. Interestingly, she has no comment about the declining numbers the last couple weeks, when in the past, she had no problem speaking regularly when things were on the rise.

She cries that "democracy is failing here at an alarming rate" and in the same tweet thread that she claimed her and her husband are going to leave due to the elected govt. She doesn't get that government is elected, apparently, in a Democracy, and that an election result is not indication of the failings of democracy, lol. She also says in same thread the next result better be different or they are leaving. She deletes any posts in the thread not kissing her ass for her specious and stupid opinion. seems real charming. maybe BC could have her...

 

[CycloneSweep]

She cries that "democracy is failing here at an amazing rate" and in the same tweet thread that she claimed her and her husband are going to leave due to the elected govt. She doesn't get that government is elected, apparently, in a Democracy, and that an election result is not indication of the failings of democracy, lol. She also says in same thread the next result better be different or they are leaving. She deletes any posts in the thread not kissing her ass for her specious and stupid opinion. seems real charming. maybe BC could have her...

The democracy is failing at an amazing rate comment is odd. Democracy is definitely in a weird place but it is working as intended.
If her comments were "These elected officials are failing the people of the province" than she can absolutely say that and she can make plenty of arguments for that, but to say democracy is failing? Is just a very odd comment.

 

[McGoMcD]

It's a Bizarro world called reality?
Too much of anything can cause harm, and it's always been like that.

Look at it like this. Say zero lockdowns kills/destroys 500 people from Covid and full lock the doors fend for yourself the world stops lockdowns kill/destroys 500 people. Neither option is very good, so what you do is you find a point where the Covid deaths drop without severely increasing the lockdown related deaths and loses. Say your numbers go no social gatherings and limited shopping reduces Covid deaths to 100 and raises the restriction related deaths to 100. You are saving 300 people. Now over the holidays say the number jumps up to 150 restriction related deaths but if you ease back a little bit it drops that to 125 but raises Covid deaths to 105. You do it cause it's saving lives

It's a very fine balancing act. My numbers above are made up just to explain a point. NONE of the options will save everyone. Every option has consequences, it's all about loss management. People will die and suffer loses no matter what, it's all about mitigating it as much as possible, which is on going and constantly changing

Actually, I am fine with your point. Only thing to add is the only metric isn't about lives. That's just silly for obvious reasons. If it means kids have to stay home from school forever to save a life is it worth it? Clearly, there is more to it than just lives. There is no perfect equation, but quality of life saved is what matters.

Simply, the people in charge have an incentive to only look at one side of the balance sheet. They are completely ignoring some massive costs. Anyway, listen to the podcast. Makes some great points. The number of people that will starve to death due to lockdowns, suicides, loss of education is staggering. And let's make this clear, I mean from government lockdowns. Even if the government did nothing of course people will react to protect themselves. There is no magic bullet. The world was going to suffer due to Covid. I am not arguing that. What I am saying is government policy has been biased in favor of doing things that are very ineffective given political pressures. The total losses from their actions, in the end, will vastly outweigh the gains. I don't even think there is a doubt about that. Hell, just the fact millions of people didn't get checked for things like cancer this year will have a massive toll in the near future. That is just one small dimension.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Actually, I am fine with your point. Only thing to add is the only metric isn't about lives. That's just silly for obvious reasons. If it means kids have to stay home from school forever to save a life is it worth it? Clearly, there is more to it than just lives. There is no perfect equation, but quality of life saved is what matters.

Simply, the people in charge have an incentive to only look at one side of the balance sheet. They are completely ignoring some massive costs. Anyway, listen to the podcast. Makes some great points. The number of people that will starve to death due to lockdowns, suicides, loss of education is staggering. And let's make this clear, I mean from government lockdowns. Even if the government did nothing of course people will react to protect themselves. There is no magic bullet. The world was going to suffer due to Covid. I am not arguing that. What I am saying is government policy has been biased in favor of doing things that are very ineffective given political pressures. The total losses from their actions, in the end, will vastly outweigh the gains. I don't even think there is a doubt about that. Hell, just the fact millions of people didn't get checked for things like cancer this year will have a massive toll in the near future. That is just one small dimension.

To your first point I was saying deaths and losses.

To your point on if the government did nothing people will react to protect themselves is kind of untrue. Its been shown that throughout the pandemic. If people just did what was needed to do to protect themselves AND others, there wouldn't be government restrictions. They are there because people are not doing enough on their own.

The government is doing things that are very ineffective? I am going to say this relatively bluntly. People not having close contact with each other and not spending tons of time around other people lowers viral spread period. Thats a fact. If I am never around someone who has the virus, I will never get the virus. Thats a very simple concept and it's true.

You don't think there is even a doubt that the current measures will vastly outweigh the gains? I will call bullshit on that entirely. That remains to be unseen and ANYONE trying to say definitively either way is kidding themselves and straight up just wanting to enforce their own narrative.

You do realize that doing nothing and just hoping people do the right thing would lead to people not getting checked for cancer anyways because the healthcare system would be absolutely over run with people sick due to covid right? Covid caused that, not government policy.

Businesses would of still been heavily damaged without government policy. Peoples livelihoods would of been gone without government policy too. Mental health would still be taking a massive hit. All the bad we see with the government policies would still exist but for different reasons. Things would be different but you can't look at me with a straight face and say it would straight up be better as you have no idea. There is very good reason to believe it would be WORSE.

Unless you are trying to convince me that governments world wide are purposely putting in horribly damaging policies for shits and giggles or just "political pressure". Governments will sometimes shit on the populace for money making policies, governments don't do both as there is NO benefit to the nation or them.

 

[McGoMcD]

To your first point I was saying deaths and losses.

To your point on if the government did nothing people will react to protect themselves is kind of untrue. Its been shown that throughout the pandemic. If people just did what was needed to do to protect themselves AND others, there wouldn't be government restrictions. They are there because people are not doing enough on their own.

The government is doing things that are very ineffective? I am going to say this relatively bluntly. People not having close contact with each other and not spending tons of time around other people lowers viral spread period. Thats a fact. If I am never around someone who has the virus, I will never get the virus. Thats a very simple concept and it's true.

You don't think there is even a doubt that the current measures will vastly outweigh the gains? I will call bullshit on that entirely. That remains to be unseen and ANYONE trying to say definitively either way is kidding themselves and straight up just wanting to enforce their own narrative.

You do realize that doing nothing and just hoping people do the right thing would lead to people not getting checked for cancer anyways because the healthcare system would be absolutely over run with people sick due to covid right? Covid caused that, not government policy.

Businesses would of still been heavily damaged without government policy. Peoples livelihoods would of been gone without government policy too. Mental health would still be taking a massive hit. All the bad we see with the government policies would still exist but for different reasons. Things would be different but you can't look at me with a straight face and say it would straight up be better as you have no idea. There is very good reason to believe it would be WORSE.

Unless you are trying to convince me that governments world wide are purposely putting in horribly damaging policies for shits and giggles or just "political pressure". Governments will sometimes shit on the populace for money making policies, governments don't do both as there is NO benefit to the nation or them.

It's also a relatively simple concept that everyone doing this together has huge costs as well. People getting together drive the global economy.

Anyway. I am not some conspiracy nut. Actually, so much of this is perfectly rational. It is concentrated harm and dilute benefits. Everyone is scared and they see an immediate cost. The media feeds of stuff like this. What is the solution? Well first step is to allow people at least to express the costs that will come with lockdowns. Which I, and many others are doing.

This should not be political, or about what should or shouldn't be done. As you say, this is weighing the costs and benefits. All I will say is some one who thinks they are morally better, or clearly correct, assuming lockdowns had to be done, and that they save lives. That is just still very much up for debate. I am almost 100% certain the costs will outweigh the benefits big time. These things happen, was there some giant conspiracy by governments to start WW I? Just a silly example, the answer is no. But does anyone doubt the costs vastly out weighed the benefits? To move forward we need a clear picture. Right now all anyone is getting is saving the lives of those who would die of Covid, no one is talking about the mass of other costs. Listen to the podcast. Costs are MASSIVE!!!! This will be shown to be true in the years to come.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Somebody should take screenshots on google maps of all these places like Best Buy being 3X busier than highest usual, during a pandemic when a 15% capacity restriction is in place.

just saying. Those are the "live" bars showing up on google bars for how many visitors at any moment, that don't fit on the usual graph, lol

They should call it "Worst Buy" being that its probably one of the worst places to be today.

Wonder if any of those are doing curbside pickup?

ps Walmart Tamarack had ample supplies of lysol spray and disinfectant wipes as well. No limits. Not that I want to start any pandemic shopping. we went when store opened this am and not many people there. Judging from google can't say the same now..

 

[Drivesaitl]

ps As a resident red blooded male here it would be remiss of me not to point out the Edmonton Sunshine girl special santa today....yowza..

Lets just say if you go take a look you won't be disappointed. I would link, but you know, bouncies..

This is frame worthy.

 

[Snipes45]

Best Buy was sooo busy yesterday. Big line up outside, so they are following capacity I guess, but inside is just normal. Nobody cares about distancing everywhere I go.

 

[CycloneSweep]

It's also a relatively simple concept that everyone doing this together has huge costs as well. People getting together drive the global economy.

Anyway. I am not some conspiracy nut. Actually, so much of this is perfectly rational. It is concentrated harm and dilute benefits. Everyone is scared and they see an immediate cost. The media feeds of stuff like this. What is the solution? Well first step is to allow people at least to express the costs that will come with lockdowns. Which I, and many others are doing.

This should not be political, or about what should or shouldn't be done. As you say, this is weighing the costs and benefits. All I will say is some one who thinks they are morally better, or clearly correct, assuming lockdowns had to be done, and that they save lives. That is just still very much up for debate. I am almost 100% certain the costs will outweigh the benefits big time. These things happen, was there some giant conspiracy by governments to start WW I? Just a silly example, the answer is no. But does anyone doubt the costs vastly out weighed the benefits? To move forward we need a clear picture. Right now all anyone is getting is saving the lives of those who would die of Covid, no one is talking about the mass of other costs. Listen to the podcast. Costs are MASSIVE!!!! This will be shown to be true in the years to come.

Of course the costs of massive. The costs of doing nothing are massive is too. Some believe the death rate is 0.1% others think its closer to 1%. But for the sake of this lets say thats it. The cost of doing nothing, no restrictions and that means 0.1% of the population dies. That would be 330,000 Canadians. Even if you say that most of those people would of already died without covid, thats still a massive 40k death increase from the previous year which is staggering.

0.1% of the world population is 78 MILLION. Roughly 68 million people die per year in the world from various causes. a 10 million death increase world wide would be devastating. World War 2 killed 50-80 million people (the number is constantly debated) over 6 years. So lets say the normal 68 million deaths all were considered covid deaths thats still 10 million extra deaths in a year which would be a similar pace to what World War 2 was.

Now of course people on their own would of done what they could but without government policy and support not enough people would. And thats also using the low end number of 0.1% when many argue its actually a higher number.

But trying to argue that government policy is 100% no questions asked causing more harm than good and doing nothing would of been better well....unless you think that all of those deaths would have zero impact on peoples mental wellbeing, their businesses or any of the same thing lockdowns are, I don't know what to say.

The last I will say is, you do things to help now and you do things tomorrow to make sure the consequences are minimized further. Put supports in place and find GOOD ways to get people back on their feet and restart and rebuild the world economy. If governments world wide just leave everyone to their own devices after covid is gone than those potential costs will be maximized. Hopefully they do the right thing and help with the aftermath as well.

 

[Dorian2]

ps As a resident red blooded male here it would be remiss of me not to point out the Edmonton Sunshine girl special santa today....yowza..

Lets just say if you go take a look you won't be disappointed. I would link, but you know, bouncies..

This is frame worthy.

Not sure which Best Buy people are talking about to be honest. I've been to the NE one a couple of times over the lsat week and haven't seen anything like what's being portrayed. Not shitting on your post, just using it as a vehicle to state my own perception of a situation.

 

[yukoner88]

Math humor, it exists. heh

Math

Mentally
Abusing
The
Humans

 

[LaGu]

Of course the costs of massive. The costs of doing nothing are massive is too. Some believe the death rate is 0.1% others think its closer to 1%. But for the sake of this lets say thats it. The cost of doing nothing, no restrictions and that means 0.1% of the population dies. That would be 330,000 Canadians. Even if you say that most of those people would of already died without covid, thats still a massive 40k death increase from the previous year which is staggering.

0.1% of the world population is 78 MILLION. Roughly 68 million people die per year in the world from various causes. a 10 million death increase world wide would be devastating. World War 2 killed 50-80 million people (the number is constantly debated) over 6 years. So lets say the normal 68 million deaths all were considered covid deaths thats still 10 million extra deaths in a year which would be a similar pace to what World War 2 was.

Now of course people on their own would of done what they could but without government policy and support not enough people would. And thats also using the low end number of 0.1% when many argue its actually a higher number.

But trying to argue that government policy is 100% no questions asked causing more harm than good and doing nothing would of been better well....unless you think that all of those deaths would have zero impact on peoples mental wellbeing, their businesses or any of the same thing lockdowns are, I don't know what to say.

The last I will say is, you do things to help now and you do things tomorrow to make sure the consequences are minimized further. Put supports in place and find GOOD ways to get people back on their feet and restart and rebuild the world economy. If governments world wide just leave everyone to their own devices after covid is gone than those potential costs will be maximized. Hopefully they do the right thing and help with the aftermath as well.

Time for ninja edit, your math is off. You're doing 1% instead of 0.1% (or was that the point?).

Anyhow, big numbers is one thing. During the Spanish flu some places were decimated, while others fared much better. In India 5% died, in Europe 1%, in UK 0.3%. All politics is regional. I'm in a region where 0.25% of the entire population (10M) have died from Covid19, so I guess my perspective is a bit different than many others.

 

[Stoneman89]

ps As a resident red blooded male here it would be remiss of me not to point out the Edmonton Sunshine girl special santa today....yowza..

Lets just say if you go take a look you won't be disappointed. I would link, but you know, bouncies..

This is frame worthy.

Yesterday's SG was pretty damned good too.

 

[Stoneman89]

Picked up some office supplies today at Staples, then Wine and Beyond for some extra vodka, and finally to Safeway to get the last bit of groceries. I am not going near a store for the next 5 days, I don't give a shit what we run out of.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Of course the costs of massive. The costs of doing nothing are massive is too. Some believe the death rate is 0.1% others think its closer to 1%. But for the sake of this lets say thats it. The cost of doing nothing, no restrictions and that means 0.1% of the population dies. That would be 330,000 Canadians. Even if you say that most of those people would of already died without covid, thats still a massive 40k death increase from the previous year which is staggering.

0.1% of the world population is 78 MILLION. Roughly 68 million people die per year in the world from various causes. a 10 million death increase world wide would be devastating. World War 2 killed 50-80 million people (the number is constantly debated) over 6 years. So lets say the normal 68 million deaths all were considered covid deaths thats still 10 million extra deaths in a year which would be a similar pace to what World War 2 was.

Now of course people on their own would of done what they could but without government policy and support not enough people would. And thats also using the low end number of 0.1% when many argue its actually a higher number.

But trying to argue that government policy is 100% no questions asked causing more harm than good and doing nothing would of been better well....unless you think that all of those deaths would have zero impact on peoples mental wellbeing, their businesses or any of the same thing lockdowns are, I don't know what to say.

The last I will say is, you do things to help now and you do things tomorrow to make sure the consequences are minimized further. Put supports in place and find GOOD ways to get people back on their feet and restart and rebuild the world economy. If governments world wide just leave everyone to their own devices after covid is gone than those potential costs will be maximized. Hopefully they do the right thing and help with the aftermath as well.

Why is it one or the other....no restrictions vs. tight lockdowns?