OT: Coronavirus XXXI: Tighter Alberta Restrictions Through The Holiday Season, Stay Safe Everyone

[Oilhawks]

Lol. Ok, hotel guy.

You’re right though. ICU patients call a few days or even a week in advance to book a spot. It’s not like ICU admissions from acute care can happen in a matter of minutes and require intensive processes.

The staff required to meet the increase are also just waiting for such a “demand”. They’re not doing anything else, so it’s not an issue.

This has just become laughable and really quite telling. I’m not surprised people think like this, I just always find it hilarious.

 

[Ol' Jase]

That’s a good thing that the article you linked and I have quoted multiple times for you states that the plan to have 400+ ICU beds and available within the coming weeks was put into action many weeks ago...

what’s laughable is you denying the words of the heads of AHS. You’re the one denying the facts. You’re the one who think his opinion is the only one that matters. If you continue to insist that you know more than the heads of AHS then there’s clearly no point in feeding your ignorance any further.

Its been tried to be explained to you many, many times that’s it not just that simple, as the article clearly states that the issue is allocating the labour. That is the issue. It’s always been the issue. It’s not just a f***ing bed.

Honestly, I’m not surprised by this anymore. Nobody gives a shit about what’s happening to healthcare staff anyway. It’s all about keeping true to that hillbilly mentality that this is “just a flu” or “it’s not that bad” or, my favourite. “It’s just a hoax”.

Do you know one of the more pressing issues going on on hospitals right now? Beyond frontline workers at their absolute breaking point? Security. Hospitals are now on constant heightened security because anti-COVID shitheels are demanding to film ICU units. Demanding to see the number of patients being treated. Waiting outside of hospitals to berate staff that they’re just pawns in the hoax.

Hospital staff are doing everything they can to care for the sick, working for months at beyond a healthy capacity and pace and are beyond exhausted and near collapse. For all that they are doing, they get to put up with garbage like this.

It’s absolutely disgusting, but they’ll keep doing everything they can. Maybe it’s not too much to ask that the public in general cut them a bit of slack and listening to what they’re trying to say regarding what’s going on in hospitals right now instead of calling them “fear-mongers” and thinking that stuff that goes on in a hospital is a bit different that how a f***img hotel is run.

 

[nabob]

Its been tried to be explained to you many, many times that’s it not just that simple, as the article clearly states that the issue is allocating the labour. That is the issue. It’s always been the issue. It’s not just a f***ing bed.

Honestly, I’m not surprised by this anymore. Nobody gives a shit about what’s happening to healthcare staff anyway. It’s all about keeping true to that hillbilly mentality that this is “just a flu” or “it’s not that bad” or, my favourite. “It’s just a hoax”.

Do you know one of the more pressing issues going on on hospitals right now? Beyond frontline workers at their absolute breaking point? Security. Hospitals are now on constant heightened security because anti-COVID shitheels are demanding to film ICU units. Demanding to see the number of patients being treated. Waiting outside of hospitals to berate staff that they’re just pawns in the hoax.

Hospital staff are doing everything they can to care for the sick, working for months at beyond a healthy capacity and pace and are beyond exhausted and near collapse. For all that they are doing, they get to put up with garbage like this.

It’s absolutely disgusting, but they’ll keep doing everything they can. Maybe it’s not too much to ask that the public in general cut them a bit of slack and listening to what they’re trying to say regarding what’s going on in hospitals right now instead of calling them “fear-mongers” and thinking that stuff that goes on in a hospital is a bit different that how a f***img hotel is run.

so when you lose arguments you just fabricate new ones? Weak.

it’s very clear you didn’t read the link I posted yesterday and posted again today if you’re trying desperately to lump me in with the Covid deniers and people who don’t give a poop about healthcare staff. It’s sad that your go to is to resort to straw man arguments and personal attacks when your own links and direct quotes from AHS and Hinshaw are used to prove you wrong.

I’ll post the story one more time right now, I think if anyone here needs to read it right now it would be you. It’s very well written and gives a great perspective.
The Spirit of Christmas

 

[Ol' Jase]

so when you lose arguments you just fabricate new ones? Weak.

Lol.

I’ve literally said the same thing over and over. The staffing is the issue. There aren’t enough staff. There isn’t enough nurses. The staffing levels are critical. Staffing issues are at play here. ICU beds require extra staff. There is a staff shortage problem. Staffing is the issue. The problem is with the staffing of new ICU beds.

 

[soothsayer]

If it pleases the thread:

 

[Raab]

Lol.

I’ve literally said the same thing over and over. The staffing is the issue. There aren’t enough staff. There isn’t enough nurses. The staffing levels are critical. Staffing issues are at play here. ICU beds require extra staff. There is a staff shortage problem. Staffing is the issue. The problem is with the staffing of new ICU beds.

In a public health emergency the CMOH can call back medical personnel. If theres a true emergency theres a lot of people trained sitting on the sidelines, myself included. Why haven't they called anyone back if its an issue? Could it be the UNA?

 

[Frank the Tank]

Prove me wrong, those are simply facts.

The article you posted states that COVID-19 adds "a year's worth of risk" or "roughly doubles your risk of dying this year":

So, roughly speaking, we might say that getting COVID-19 is like packing a year’s worth of risk into a week or two. Which is why it’s important to spread out the infections to avoid the NHS being overwhelmed.

It also states:

So average risk of death doubles in 8 years.

This 8 year value for average years of life lost (YLLs) for someone with COVID-19 matches roughly what has been reported in other articles:

Author	Publication	YLLs	Link
Quast et al	Journal of Public Health	9	Years of life lost associated with COVID-19 deaths in the United States
Arolas et al	Preprint	15	https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.06.19.20136069[/TD][/TR]
DuGoff et al	Health Care Cost Institute	10	The Impact of COVID-19 on Years of Life Lost
Wetzler et al	Preprint	11	https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.06.08.20050559[/TD][/TR]
Oh et al	J Korean Med Sci	9	10.3346/jkms.2020.35.e300

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Raab]

aren't ICU's almost always full to begin with?

The whole systems always taxed. Might be worst then normal, but public health has been failing for 10 years, due to the government monopoly.

 

[Raab]

The article you posted states that COVID-19 adds "a year's worth of risk" or "roughly doubles your risk of dying this year":

It also states:


This 8 year value for average years of life lost (YLLs) for someone with COVID-19 matches roughly what has been reported in other articles:

Author	Publication	YLLs	Link
Quast et al	Journal of Public Health	9	Years of life lost associated with COVID-19 deaths in the United States
Arolas et al	Preprint	15	https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.06.19.20136069[/TD][/TR]
DuGoff et al	Health Care Cost Institute	10	The Impact of COVID-19 on Years of Life Lost
Wetzler et al	Preprint	11	https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.06.08.20050559[/TD][/TR]
Oh et al	J Korean Med Sci	9	10.3346/jkms.2020.35.e300

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Yes, and I said all that in my post...

 

[Ol' Jase]

In a public health emergency the CMOH can call back medical personnel. If theres a true emergency theres a lot of people trained sitting on the sidelines, myself included. Why haven't they called anyone back if its an issue? Could it be the UNA?

A lot have been called back already.

There are also certification issues of RN’s or LPN’s have been out of active rotation for a while.

 

[nabob]

Lol.

I’ve literally said the same thing over and over. The staffing is the issue. There aren’t enough staff. There isn’t enough nurses. The staffing levels are critical. Staffing issues are at play here. ICU beds require extra staff. There is a staff shortage problem. Staffing is the issue. The problem is with the staffing of new ICU beds.

Well you should bring that up with Hinshaw and the heads of AHS because clearly they have no idea what they’re doing. They’re going to be up to 425 ICU beds available with zero staff for those beds!! You’d think that they of all people would know that hospitals need staff!!!

...or maybe they know what they’re talking about and know how to handle the situation better than some random self proclaimed expert on HFOil who’s having a bad day.

 

[Ninety7]

In a public health emergency the CMOH can call back medical personnel. If theres a true emergency theres a lot of people trained sitting on the sidelines, myself included. Why haven't they called anyone back if its an issue? Could it be the UNA?

I would like to know the validity of this. It is my understanding that the military comes in at a reduced role - at least the setting I work in has instructed us that this would be the case.

Not sure if there are a lot of “trained people” on the sidelines, especially for ICU, which isn’t just basic level nursing mind you.

 

[Raab]

A lot have been called back already.

There are also certification issues of RN’s or LPN’s have been out of active rotation for a while.

And there in lies the issue, why should someone who decided to stay home and raise kids have to keep up on continuing education to keep their certification? To perhaps ensure less competition in the market and keep wages high? Either way the person is trained and has been deemed competent especially if they've worked for any amount of time. I'd take a Nurse who's worked for 5 years over one right out of college any day. Yet the one who's worked for 5 years, might not have a license due to continuing ed. We didn't have this problem 100 years ago. If it was a true emergency ANYONE who had the training should be recalled immediately to deal with it, regardless of current registration unless their license was revoked due to misconduct.

 

[nabob]

I would like to know the validity of this. It is my understanding that the military comes in at a reduced role - at least the setting I work in has instructed us that this would be the case.

Not sure if there are a lot of “trained people” on the sidelines, especially for ICU, which isn’t just basic level nursing mind you.

also that if you’re talking retired nurses they’d be at a higher risk of having more severe consequences if they were to catch Covid while being brought in to treat people who have Covid.

 

[Frank the Tank]

Yes, and I said all that in my post...

You said they would die in 12 months of something else, which isn't exactly the same as what the article says - doubling their risk of dying in a single year (equal to approximately a decade of YLLs).

Just want to clarify that the average person who dies from covid-19 loses a decade of their life, not 1 year.

 

[Ol' Jase]

Well you should bring that up with Hinshaw and the heads of AHS because clearly they have no idea what they’re doing. They’re going to be up to 425 ICU beds available with zero staff for those beds!! You’d think that they of all people would know that hospitals need staff!!!

...or maybe they know what they’re talking about and know how to handle the situation better than some random self proclaimed expert on HFOil who’s having a bad day.

‘We’re in big trouble’: Alberta double-bunking in ICUs, limiting oxygen due to surge in hospitalizations

On Monday, several Alberta health-care workers tweeted a memo from Alberta Health Services to staff in the Calgary Zone adult acute-care sites which said there was a need to “reduce the demand on the bulk oxygen system” due to limitations at some acute-care sites in Calgary.

Joe Vipond, an emergency room physician in Calgary, said he and his colleagues have been highlighting “pinch points,” or indicators that Alberta is approaching a crisis, such as ICU beds reaching capacity, a shortage of personal protective equipment or inadequate staffing for patient care. But this memo came as “a bit of a shock.”

“I don’t think anybody expected that one of the pinch points is going to be our supply of oxygen,” Vipond said.

Alberta has reached a “critical juncture,” said Ilan Schwartz, an assistant professor at the University of Alberta who works at the university’s hospital as an infectious disease consultant.

“The double bunking, I’ve never seen before in my life in the ICU,” Schwartz said. “That’s totally not normal.”

While much of what health-care workers have witnessed over the course of the pandemic would be considered not normal, Schwartz has concerns that desperate measures such as double bunking, which Alberta Health Services refers to as “patient cohorting,” could have direct impacts on the quality of care for patients under intensive care.

For example, he said one of the best practices when treating intubated patients who are receiving mechanical ventilation is to flip them on their front side intermittently, which is called proning. That could be difficult with the physical limitations of having two patients in one room.

“It’s a huge undertaking to flip these patients over. It takes about six staff or so. And you can’t do that if a patient is squished into a room with another patient,” Schwartz said, adding that machines such as ventilators are large and need a lot of space.

“We do have areas which are purposely made for those types of situations where there are two headboards, in a room with dual oxygen supplies and air supply,” he said.

Vipond said while it’s true those spaces are equipped to handle more than one patient, the real question is how the hospitals will find enough specialized workers, such as intensivist nurses and respiratory therapists, to treat them.

“They don’t come off a shelf. You can’t repurpose another health-care worker to be a respiratory therapist,” Vipond said. “They are very, very specialized individuals.”

Zygun said the province is looking at personnel who have recently worked in ICUs and is providing further training in certain specialties so “non-traditional providers” can support critical care teams.

 

[Raab]

I would like to know the validity of this. It is my understanding that the military comes in at a reduced role - at least the setting I work in has instructed us that this would be the case.

Not sure if there are a lot of “trained people” on the sidelines, especially for ICU, which isn’t just basic level nursing mind you.

Basically with the way registration works you have to continually be updating your education. A lot of people who get out of the career choose that its not worth the time and stop pursuing the education. Theres literally thousands of trained Albertan's who could be helping right now if not for Unions and the Colleges.

 

[Ol' Jase]

I would like to know the validity of this. It is my understanding that the military comes in at a reduced role - at least the setting I work in has instructed us that this would be the case.

Not sure if there are a lot of “trained people” on the sidelines, especially for ICU, which isn’t just basic level nursing mind you.

Most of the ICU and acute care specialty nursing staff recently laid off/retired have already been called back into rotations.

 

[Raab]

You said they would die in 12 months of something else, which isn't exactly the same as what the article says - doubling their risk of dying in a single year (equal to approximately a decade of YLLs).

Just want to clarify that the average person who dies from covid-19 loses a decade of their life, not 1 year.

Look at the graph I posted, I'm sorry but with the average age of 82 for mortality it's not a decade these people are losing.

 

[Dingo]

And there in lies the issue, why should someone who decided to stay home and raise kids have to keep up on continuing education to keep there certification? To perhaps ensure less competition in the market and keep wages high? Either way the person is trained and has been deemed competent especially if they've worked for any amount of time. I'd take a Nurse who's worked for 5 years over one right out of college any day. Yet the one who's worked for 5 years, might not have a license due to continuing ed. We didn't have this problem 100 years ago. If it was a true emergency ANYONE who had the training should be recalled immediately to deal with it, regardless of current registration unless their license was revoked due to misconduct.

nice post. We are mired in bureaucracy.

 

[nabob]

‘We’re in big trouble’: Alberta double-bunking in ICUs, limiting oxygen due to surge in hospitalizations

So you don’t believe the almost three week old Hinshaw quote in the link you posted earlier, and that I have provided to you multiple times about there being 425 ICU beds ready for patients in the coming weeks?...why don’t you believe that the experts who’s job it is to manage AHS and are healthcare system are capable of doing so?

as for doctors and others complaining that things are busier or the system is more taxed than normal...umm yeah that tends to happen during a once and a lifetime pandemic. It’s not just par for the course right now. Things have to be done and the way resources are allocated have to be modified to get through the storm.

 

[nabob]

Most of the ICU and acute care specialty nursing staff recently laid off/retired have already been called back into rotations.

Link?

 

[Ol' Jase]

Link?

'Sense of duty:' Dozens of retired Alberta nurses and physicians register to return to work to fight pandemic

 

[Ol' Jase]

So you don’t believe the Hinshaw quote in the link you posted earlier, and that I have provided to you multiple times about there being 425 ICU beds ready for patients...why don’t you believe that the experts who’s job it is to manage AHS and are healthcare system are capable of doing so?

I've provided multiple quotes from frontline people that lay out what the struggles are.

There's also the fact that there has only been a 30 bed increase so far, as the article clearly says.

Again, you think it's basically a hospital is a hotel, so that goes a long way to helping your argument.

 

[nabob]

'Sense of duty:' Dozens of retired Alberta nurses and physicians register to return to work to fight pandemic

That’s a cool story but that talks about how there’s 36 staff needed and hundreds stepped up to offer.

Doesn’t exactly back up your claim that “Most of the ICU and acute care specialty nursing staff recently laid off/retired have already been called back into rotations.” It actually says that less than 10% of the people who quickly offered are filling positions.

once again you quote an article that proves what you said was terribly inaccurate.