OT: Coronavirus XXVII: Two Vaccines Are 90%+ Effective, How Safe Are They?

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Raab

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Oct 6, 2007
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Kenney listened to the lock er down voices the first time, and the results were nothing like what was projected, so I'm glad hes ignoring them this time around. Still dont know why he shut down sports but left schools open. That one doesnt make much sense to me.

Yea, he could have just shut down adult sports leagues and left them open for kids under 16. Either way the current restrictions are basically nothing, and will do nothing to slow spread. They're more to placate the lockdown crowd, imagine how loud they would have been if they had done nothing? Looking at the current cases majority are in 20-39 year olds, indicating the big bump is from Halloween night. Still say we see a drop in the next couple weeks.
 

yukoner88

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Dec 16, 2009
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Yea, he could have just shut down adult sports leagues and left them open for kids under 16. Either way the current restrictions are basically nothing, and will do nothing to slow spread. They're more to placate the lockdown crowd, imagine how loud they would have been if they had done nothing? Looking at the current cases majority are in 20-39 year olds, indicating the big bump is from Halloween night. Still say we see a drop in the next couple weeks.

I hope you're right
 

bone

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Not western version lockdowns in anycase. Welding doors shut maybe had some results..

Once the virus is in, its in. At that point its only degrees of mitigation really.

So just on another aside I'm curious about this. In Eastern Canada a lot of sources are down on Alberta again, and our Covid response and "its the worst" yada yada and the same pundits are saying such things as look at NS for how good they have done.

So I did. NS has 65 Covid Deaths. They have 1/5 the population of Alberta and nothing close to the urban areas of Alberta. Plus NS has not really entered into Winter yet.
We have the dry prairie winters here so theres going to be some mroe Covid spread. But I could see numbers picking up in NS again as well.

It's like most of them haven't yet realized that numbers are higher (not just counting number but infection rates as well) where population density is greatest (i.e. typically where large cities exist and Alberta has the 4th and 5th largest cities in the country).

Imagine that! When most of the experts say one of the best defences is keeping distance from each other.
 
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bone

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Kenney listened to the lock er down voices the first time, and the results were nothing like what was projected, so I'm glad hes ignoring them this time around. Still dont know why he shut down sports but left schools open. That one doesnt make much sense to me.

Schools are much more important than sporting activities, so I sort of understand. But when so few outbreaks have been linked to sports cohorts, there is no way this is going to result in a noticeable reduction in numbers. That's what frustrates me.

Furthermore, this current spike is so clearly linked to Halloween. It is further amplified as Halloween occured right at the peak from Thanksgiving transmission, so this should settle a little now with no major event until Christmas.

We're also likely to see a bit of a dip as this announcement was made during a week off for many schools and lots of people taking a week off work due to the holiday which in turn will also lead to a decrease in numbers November 23-30.

As such, they'll claim the sports shutdown as a great success and eliminate it for the rest of the season, when it really wasn't one of the primary contributors to the drop.
 
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Mr Positive

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I have a feeling this vaccine is totally safe. It's RNA based, but it doesn't alter your DNA, just adds to it for a short time, as RNA doesn't last forever.

As long as the vaccine has went through trials I don't see the big issue. It's hard to tell with messaging, but to me it really seems like we are being told not to trust it for political reasons.
 

AM

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Nov 22, 2004
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If they are safe and can be distributed widely, we could be seeing the silver lining to this giant shit cloud.
I think light at the end of the tunnel or some such thing. For a silver lining, everyone in the world has evaluated what is important. Which is never a bad thing.
 
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bone

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I think light at the end of the tunnel or some such thing. For a silver lining, everyone in the world has evaluated what is important. Which is never a bad thing.

I hope that's what everyone remembers as this has also been a catalyst for a lot of hatred to come to light as well. Hopefully once the tensions drop civilization can get back to working together.
 
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AM

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Kenney listened to the lock er down voices the first time, and the results were nothing like what was projected, so I'm glad hes ignoring them this time around. Still dont know why he shut down sports but left schools open. That one doesnt make much sense to me.
Children need education.
 

SK13

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Jul 23, 2007
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If you think that the numbers are going to go down because there isn't a holiday in the next couple weeks, you haven't been doing the reading.

The virus spreads exponentially when left unchecked. With almost no restrictions - and what changed this week probably won't be a big help - the virus will continue to spread at rates better than 1:1. Super spreader events like Halloween don't just infect a bunch of partiers, they create hundreds of newly infected people who will go on to spread to more than 1 person on average. The numbers will only climb until they are checked and the rate of infection declines to below 1. There are only two ways anyone has ever reduced the rate of infection after having wide community spread: harsh lockdowns and a vast test and trace apparatus. Alberta has neither, and has actually gimped their contact tracing.

Not listening to the "lock er down" crowd because we had better than projected results BECAUSE OF THE LOCKDOWN is an absurd take and it's not what the UCP is actually doing. They're ignoring the overwhelming consensus of local healthcare experts to avoid short term economic pain in the hopes that a vaccine rides in to the rescue. But in the best case scenario a vaccine is still many months away from being wide enough to actually curb newly infected numbers and we've shot up to 81% ICU capacity from ~50% in three weeks.

I really don't blame our healthcare workers for abandoning this province. They deserve better than Alberta.
 
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barry halls

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Nov 13, 2018
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I'm curious now, how many here would be ok with the government making vaccines mandatory?
Let's say if you don't take the vaccine you are literally banished to the fringes of society (can't enter stores, can't work or go to school etc.).
Would you actually be ok with such extreme measures, which would alter the face of our society forever, and result in every city in the country having it's own Vancouver Downtown Eastside? Or would you start to raise your eyebrows and start to question our government, and wonder if this kind of authoritarian power move by our own elected officials is something we should accept?
 
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SK13

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I'm curious now, how many here would be ok with the government making vaccines mandatory?
Let's say if you don't take the vaccine you are literally banished to the fringes of society (can't enter stores, can't work or go to school etc.).
Would you actually be ok with such extreme measures, which would alter the face of our society forever, and result in every city in the country having it's own Vancouver Downtown Eastside? Or would you start to raise your eyebrows and start to question our government, and wonder if this kind of authoritarian power move by our own elected officials is something we should accept?

The government will never march you to the needle. It's not worth the rabble rousing and it's counterproductive to educating people on the value of vaccinations as it just gets people's backs up about "muh freedoms".

What they might do, and even this I doubt, is make it compulsory for a kid to attend a public school or allow business' to make it a condition of employment, etc. I would think they're just going to hope that they can hit the 60% threshold voluntarily.
 

bone

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I'm curious now, how many here would be ok with the government making vaccines mandatory?
Let's say if you don't take the vaccine you are literally banished to the fringes of society (can't enter stores, can't work or go to school etc.).
Would you actually be ok with such extreme measures, which would alter the face of our society forever, and result in every city in the country having it's own Vancouver Downtown Eastside? Or would you start to raise your eyebrows and start to question our government, and wonder if this kind of authoritarian power move by our own elected officials is something we should accept?

Even if they wanted to, I don't think they could as they wouldn't have enough for quite some time once it becomes available.

I'd prefer for it to be voluntary with some exceptions and don't imagine it needing to be mandatory for everything to get to the point where this is manageable.

For mandatory vaccinations, I could see mandating it for people to attend full capacity concerts or sporting events, or to take international flights, but not for going to Wal-Mart, etc. Those most concerned will line up for the first opportunity, then as people go to larger events or travel there will be many more that will get it.

Over time more people will be immune or at least strong enough to fight it that it becomes a much smaller strain on the resources. At this point, you probably can't destroy the virus so the goal is to at least get it to a point where it is as manageable as some of the other viruses that can't be destroyed.
 

Ritchie Valens

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Sep 24, 2007
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I can sort of see the reasoning why the sports were shutdown though. I'm assuming minor hockey leagues were playing games against each other, with multiple games from multiple leagues going on throughout the days, especially weekends. When you have grandma and grandpa, mom and dad, brothers and sisters coming to watch little Johnny play hockey it's people in an enclosed, chilly area where the virus allegedly thrives. Rinks and arenas likely have a spectator maximum right now (my kids don't play arena sports so I don't know) but the point is there are still spectators converging amongst random strangers which is no different than a mall or grocery store really, except you're in a generalized area for longer instead of constantly moving about in a store. The difference between rinks and schools is where my kids go to school, that building is on lockdown. If you're not a student or staffer, you don't go in.

Another reason schools won't be closed across the province (unless things get way, way out of control and will be the last option) is it will put too many people out of work (again), whether it's a leave of absence or otherwise which will affect household finances. Plus the quality of education of having parents try to educate will show in the younger students later down the road. A good example is my daughter struggles with math. I try to teach her the way I was taught over 30 years ago. That way is different, the terminology, methodology...everything. So I wind up confusing her way more.
 
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barry halls

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Nov 13, 2018
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The government will never march you to the needle. It's not worth the rabble rousing and it's counterproductive to educating people on the value of vaccinations as it just gets people's backs up about "muh freedoms".

What they might do, and even this I doubt, is make it compulsory for a kid to attend a public school or allow business' to make it a condition of employment, etc. I would think they're just going to hope that they can hit the 60% threshold voluntarily.

I hope you're right. I know for a fact that many thousands of Canadians will refuse to take it, even if it means being ostracized from society. We would literally see tent cities popping up across the country, along with mass protests and a large spike in property crime.
 

Mr Positive

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Even if they wanted to, I don't think they could as they wouldn't have enough for quite some time once it becomes available.

I'd prefer for it to be voluntary with some exceptions and don't imagine it needing to be mandatory for everything to get to the point where this is manageable.

For mandatory vaccinations, I could see mandating it for people to attend full capacity concerts or sporting events, or to take international flights, but not for going to Wal-Mart, etc. Those most concerned will line up for the first opportunity, then as people go to larger events there will be many more that will get it.

Over time more people will be immune or at least strong enough to fight it that it becomes a much smaller strain on the resources. At this point, you probably can't immediately destroy the virus so the goal is to at least get it to a point where it is as manageable as some of the other viruses that can't be destroyed.
that's exactly what will happen imo. There will be a database of who took it, and it will be referenced for stuff like international flights, but not for normal day to day things.

Could employers require a person has the vaccine to do certain jobs? That one seems tricky to me.

Personally I'm not scared of vaccines or the virus for that matter, but I'm sympathic to those who are.
 
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Bryanbryoil

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Sep 13, 2004
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I'm curious now, how many here would be ok with the government making vaccines mandatory?
Let's say if you don't take the vaccine you are literally banished to the fringes of society (can't enter stores, can't work or go to school etc.).
Would you actually be ok with such extreme measures, which would alter the face of our society forever, and result in every city in the country having it's own Vancouver Downtown Eastside? Or would you start to raise your eyebrows and start to question our government, and wonder if this kind of authoritarian power move by our own elected officials is something we should accept?

If the death rate was considerably higher I would be fine with it being mandatory except for those that it may kill. IMO kids should get it if it is safe to be able to go to school. People that haven't already had the virus should also get vaccinated to try and kill this virus off. If it is proven to be safe then people need to do their part to get rid of this damn virus.
 

Little Fury

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Jun 21, 2006
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I hope you're right. I know for a fact that many thousands of Canadians will refuse to take it, even if it means being ostracized from society. We would literally see tent cities popping up across the country, along with mass protests and a large spike in property crime.

Thousands of dumb people currently refuse to their kids and that hasn't happened, why would this be different?
 

bone

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I can sort of see the reasoning why the sports were shutdown though. I'm assuming minor hockey leagues were playing games against each other, with multiple games from multiple leagues going on throughout the days, especially weekends. When you have grandma and grandpa, mom and dad, brothers and sisters coming to watch little Johnny play hockey it's people in an enclosed, chilly area where the virus allegedly thrives. Rinks and arenas likely have a spectator maximum right now (my kids don't play arena sports so I don't know) but the point is there are still spectators converging amongst random strangers which is no different than a mall or grocery store really, except you're in a generalized area for longer instead of constantly moving about in a store. The difference between rinks and schools is where my kids go to school, that building is on lockdown. If you're not a student or staffer, you don't go in.

Another reason schools won't be closed across the province (unless things get way, way out of control and will be the last option) is it will put too many people out of work (again), whether it's a leave of absence or otherwise which will affect household finances. Plus the quality of education of having parents try to educate will show in the younger students later down the road. A good example is my daughter struggles with math. I try to teach her the way I was taught over 30 years ago. That way is different, the terminology, methodology...everything. So I wind up confusing her way more.

Just to clarify the situation. Teams were forced to stay within cohorts of 50 people or less, so in a few week span they could only play against one or two teams. For spectators, we were limited for the numbers (many rinks only allowing one spectator per kid) with excessive signage, mandatory masks, and barriers to reinforce distancing requirements and by nature parents from each always stick to the same side of the rink reducing the "cross-contamination" of different teams. Certainly it was more risky than not having sports at all, but the sports associations and recreational centres were taking it seriously to minimize that risk.

I probably could have understood it better had they just said no more games, but still allowed practices as you'd then be limited to a much smaller group and very few spectators. Especially frustrating to see them allow figure skating practice to continue in groups bigger than a hockey/ringette team, because of it being an "individual sport", when they've prohibited hockey or ringette practice.
 
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Bryanbryoil

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I hope you're right. I know for a fact that many thousands of Canadians will refuse to take it, even if it means being ostracized from society. We would literally see tent cities popping up across the country, along with mass protests and a large spike in property crime.

Their choice. Just as long as they don't bitch and moan when they can't do certain things.
 
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BlueCheeseWithWings

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Aug 1, 2018
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I'm curious now, how many here would be ok with the government making vaccines mandatory?
Let's say if you don't take the vaccine you are literally banished to the fringes of society (can't enter stores, can't work or go to school etc.).
Would you actually be ok with such extreme measures, which would alter the face of our society forever, and result in every city in the country having it's own Vancouver Downtown Eastside? Or would you start to raise your eyebrows and start to question our government, and wonder if this kind of authoritarian power move by our own elected officials is something we should accept?

Governments may not force its citizens to roll up the sleeve, but digital health (ID2020) passports will be used to verify a covid vaccination has been administered; and the only way to travel, buy goods, enjoy a Friday night, etc will be if your DHP proves Moderna/Pfizer is in you.
 
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Mr Positive

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If the death rate was considerably higher I would be fine with it being mandatory except for those that it may kill. IMO kids should get it if it is safe to be able to go to school. People that haven't already had the virus should also get vaccinated to try and kill this virus off. If it is proven to be safe then people need to do their part to get rid of this damn virus.
imo it's just part of a broad change in the modern day that is reasonable to resist. It's not just vaccines but also the loss of privacy, and the move from personal accountability to government and social intervention on societal proplems. It seems individual independence (and therefore freedom) is dying out.
 
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SK13

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I hope you're right. I know for a fact that many thousands of Canadians will refuse to take it, even if it means being ostracized from society. We would literally see tent cities popping up across the country, along with mass protests and a large spike in property crime.

No offense, but this dystopian concept is pure fantasy. The worst that would happen to someone who refused to take a compulsory vaccine is a fine, and there would be tons of court cases about the legality of a mandatory vaccination that would throw even that into limbo.

There's no authoritarian conspiracy in general. That line of thinking relating to both Covid-19 and life is alarmingly prevalent here and it's honestly just f***ing silly.
 

Little Fury

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Jun 21, 2006
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Governments may not force its citizens to roll up the sleeve, but digital health (ID2020) passports will be used to verify a covid vaccination has been administered; and the only way to travel, buy goods, enjoy a Friday night, etc will be if your DHP proves Moderna/Pfizer is in you.

And?
 
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