OT: Coronavirus XXV: Cases Soaring in Many Parts of North America

[CantHaveTkachev]

The UCP have really gotten what they wanted out of you from Hinshaw. She's supposed to be immune to criticism on the basis of her being calm and polite. You are doing what they want.

When she was acting in accordance with the science she was all dandy. Now she is a politicised actor with nonanswers to the criticisms of her and the UCP's non evidence based policy. Listen to question period a few times.

"Step up to the plate" means nothing because power and decision making authority are not distributed on the basis of willingness.

and again, cases are up all over the world
you're trying to politicize this without looking around and seeing the bigger picture
have you ever stopped on asked yourself why there are record numbers in BC, Manitoba, the U.S, U.K, France, Italy etc?

 

[GretzkytoKurri9917]

 

[Stoneman89]

The UCP have really gotten what they wanted out of you from Hinshaw. She's supposed to be immune to criticism on the basis of her being calm and polite. You are doing what they want.

When she was acting in accordance with the science she was all dandy. Now she is a politicised actor with nonanswers to the criticisms of her and the UCP's non evidence based policy. Listen to question period a few times.

"Step up to the plate" means nothing because power and decision making authority are not distributed on the basis of willingness.

You know what, if you don't like the UPC and Kenney, that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But bringing your political stripe into this, and making assumptions that she is "politicised" is unwarranted, possibly because of what has happened (unfortunately) to you personally. Everybody thought she was just dandy a few short months ago. Now, the heat has been turned up, and people are brushing off her expertise as "opinion". Look, no one is immune to criticism, and that goes for every province and every country in the world. This is a road that hasn't been trodden before. There is no handbook on what to do. She didn't become stupid, immoral, or brainwashed overnight. But to make unsubstantiated assumptions of lack of integrity and political leanings do nothing to help the cause.

What would you suggest be done?

 

[Giggli G]

and again, cases are up all over the world
you're trying to politicize this without looking around and seeing the bigger picture
have you ever stopped on asked yourself why there are record numbers in BC, Manitoba, the U.S, U.K, France, Italy etc?

A couple things. Cases are under control or even nearly gone in places where different policy decisions were made. The idea that the disease inevitably has to be bad is just wrong and an excuse. Look at parts of Australia. Etc.

It is also facile to suggest that AB's public health decision making has not been politicized by our Premier who said he would not put restrictions in place until things were "catastrophic" and also came out to a public health press conference last week to brag about AB's protection of freedom during the pandemic.

Also, to be honest, the idea that policy decisions made by politicians are somehow separable from "politics" is just a fantasy.

 

[Drivesaitl]

It really is sad how those with political motives have turned on her and do nothing but viciously attack a woman who has done so much for our province. I just imagine how much better shape Canada would be in as a while if we had someone like Hinshaw in Tam’s position. She’s exactly the type of person you want making decisions in circumstances like these. Calm, thoughtful, compassionate.

Exactly. Its really incredible how Hinshaw is getting the specific blame by some. Agree that she has been calm, thoughful, compassionate and to the point where I think a lot of people tune into Hinshaw and Henry just to get a dose of reassurance, clarity. She's an exceptional speaker and writer. Did you see the Takedown she wrote on the Barrington Declaration? Its exceptionally well written, she's a rare breed today in terms of how astute, eloquent she is.

I'll link it again, well worth reading.

Herd immunity and the Great Barrington Declaration

 

[MaxR11]

Agreed. Everyone has an idea as to how they'd like this to work. She is hired to make that decision based on her expertise and experience. Combine that with her sincerity, calmness and compassion in a high wire act, and I am confident we have the best person in the right spot. And I doubt she is a puppet of Kenney. I think they both know that shutting down restaurants and bookstores isn't going to stop the idiots from gathering en masse in private.

As for Tam, and our national health minister, I'm not sure I can add anything else regarding the way they've handled this, other than what has been stated ad naseum.

I find it suspect that people can say it's off limits to criticize the "great" Hinshaw, yet it's fine to bash Tam (note: not that I'm a supporter of Tam). It's complete bull cr** people are almost forbidding others to criticize Hinshaw and the UCP's poor handling of the situation because it goes against their political views. They arent infallible and can be criticized.

 

[Drivesaitl]

1. Saying everyone understands the pain is so out of touch. You have shown zero compassion, first of all. People understand the pain of losing their old way of life, except for the ones who completely ignore that and just act normal. They do not empathize with the pain I am feeling from losing a loved one and having the necessity of highly risky hospital care in the near future, if they did they would change their behaviour on a population basis. Many people don't care at all.

2. I would take Hinshaw's job in a second, and would use the information provided to whistleblow on what is clearly a bad job being done by this government. She took an oath of professional conduct and has become a political mouthpiece, her obligation as a medical doctor and public health expert is to the general population. Her credibility is shot, I happen to know a lot about this pandemic, about public health and about the science of lockdowns. I'd tell you more about my job but it's so specific that you would be able to identify me immediately from a google search, so you'll just have to take my word for it.

3. You say blame the messenger. Hinshaw is not merely a messenger, that's the point. She is the chief medical officer of Alberta, a job that comes with the obligation to protect public health. You are fundamentally misunderstanding her job. She is not a press secretary. Since you are explicitly admitting that she has simply become a messenger, your argument only supports the idea that she is in dereliction of duty and needs to resign and speak out.

A better post, but your first foray into the thread was an unpleasant mess. You're not exactly the voice of reason with how you started out that post. I do understand Hinshaw's role. I do think she displays being exemplary in relating information either through writing, or verbally. I mean thats the part we see, and can comment on. I can't comment on her other duties, and I don't think you can either, and I'll reserve judgment at your attempt to be seen as some expert on this.

You and others make assertions that she is being controlled, she's a puppet, etc and that she's in "dereliction" of duty. Strong claims there. With zero substantiation offered.

Your series of posts is hearsay.

 

[Giggli G]

You know what, if you don't like the UPC and Kenney, that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But bringing your political stripe into this, and making assumptions that she is "politicised" is unwarranted, possibly because of what has happened (unfortunately) to you personally. Everybody thought she was just dandy a few short months ago. Now, the heat has been turned up, and people are brushing off her expertise as "opinion". Look, no one is immune to criticism, and that goes for every province and every country in the world. This is a road that hasn't been trodden before. There is no handbook on what to do. But to make unsubstantiated assumptions of lack of integrity and political leanings do nothing to help the cause.

What would you suggest be done?

They aren't assumptions, they are based on her behaviour and the way she refuses to answer questions. She has shifted away from an evidence based policy position. Scientists are writing the handbook and she has not been able to act on it and the recommendations of doctors because of the government.

The UCP claim they are following her recommendations, and she has also stated that she can only say what the health ministry provides to her as taking points. Do you see how that works?

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

A couple things. Cases are under control or even nearly gone in places where different policy decisions were made. The idea that the disease inevitably has to be bad is just wrong and an excuse. Look at parts of Australia. Etc.

like where? island countries like Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan? a lot easier to contain viruses there

It is also facile to suggest that AB's public health decision making has not been politicized by our Premier who said he would not put restrictions in place until things were "catastrophic" and also came out to a public health press conference last week to brag about AB's protection of freedom during the pandemic.

Also, to be honest, the idea that policy decisions made by politicians are somehow separable from "politics" is just a fantasy.

what harsher restrictions would you like in place?
punishing small businesses because people are still going to church and having private parties isn't the best course of action

 

[MaxR11]

A couple things. Cases are under control or even nearly gone in places where different policy decisions were made. The idea that the disease inevitably has to be bad is just wrong and an excuse. Look at parts of Australia. Etc.

It is also facile to suggest that AB's public health decision making has not been politicized by our Premier who said he would not put restrictions in place until things were "catastrophic" and also came out to a public health press conference last week to brag about AB's protection of freedom during the pandemic.

Also, to be honest, the idea that policy decisions made by politicians are somehow separable from "politics" is just a fantasy.

100%. It's impossible to separate politics from this as it's CLEARLY a political based agenda and motivation from the UCP to go the way they are going with the pandemic. How can one not see this when Kenney says things like "we won't shut down because of personal freedoms"???

 

[Stoneman89]

I find it suspect that people can say it's off limits to criticize the "great" Hinshaw, yet it's fine to bash Tam (note: not that I'm a supporter of Tam). It's complete bull cr** people are almost forbidding others to criticize Hinshaw and the UCP's poor handling of the situation because it goes against their political views. They arent infallible and can be criticized.

People can and do criticize Hinshaw, and if you pay any kind of attention, you'd see it on here at times. But I haven't seen a complete batch of misinformation from Hinshaw yet, to match up to the complete contradictions of Tam (mask wearing), some of the ridiculousness (wear a mask during sex), and the abject politicalness (keep the borders and incoming flights open so as not to appear racist).

 

[Giggli G]

A better post, but your first foray into the thread was an unpleasant mess. You're not exactly the voice of reason with how you started out that post. I do understand Hinshaw's role. I do think she displays being exemplary in relating information either through writing, or verbally. I mean thats the part we see, and can comment on. I can't comment on her other duties, and I don't think you can either, and I'll reserve judgment at your attempt to be seen as some expert on this.

You and others make assertions that she is being controlled, she's a puppet, etc and that she's in "dereliction" of duty. Strong claims there. With zero substantiation offered.

Your series of posts is hearsay.

It isn't "hearsay" (please do not use technical legal terms outside of their meaning). A majority of experts agree that we are clearly on the path to healthcare system breakdown. There is plenty of science to back this up. Hinshaw knows this and should also know that there is no evidence of voluntary measures being able to stop the spread in liberal democracies based on legal principles of individualism. People on this forum are saying we should be happy just to be mediocre when compared to other countries because that's ok. If their family members were the ones dying they wouldn't be saying that.

 

[bellagiobob]

Ticketmaster could require proof of COVID-19 vaccination for concerts

Expect an additional $30 per ticket administration fee for this.

 

[Stoneman89]

100%. It's impossible to separate politics from this as it's CLEARLY a political based agenda and motivation from the UCP to go the way they are going with the pandemic. How can one not see this when Kenney says things like "we won't shut down because of personal freedoms"???

Please tell me how shutting down something like a bookstore, for example, is going to save the world.

 

[MaxR11]

Please tell me how shutting down something like a bookstore, for example, is going to save the world.

Did i say we have to shut down bookstores?

 

[Stoneman89]

Expect an additional $30 per ticket administration fee for this.

Ticketmaster already bends us over. Might as well take a double dose.

 

[Drivesaitl]

100%. It's impossible to separate politics from this as it's CLEARLY a political based agenda and motivation from the UCP to go the way they are going with the pandemic. How can one not see this when Kenney says things like "we won't shut down because of personal freedoms"???

You can't see the difference between Hinshaw's demonstrated competence and Tam stating "Covid 19 is not a threat to Canadians, Canadians will not be harmed by this" Or Tam telling us not to wear masks, "Its not Science"

Seeing as you need a refresher, here's a summary of the federal response under Tam.


The road to Canada's COVID-19 outbreak: timeline of federal government failure at border to slow the virus | Edmonton Journal

 

[Stoneman89]

Did i say we have to shut down bookstores?

What do you want them to do?

 

[Drivesaitl]

It isn't "hearsay" (please do not use technical legal terms outside of their meaning). A majority of experts agree that we are clearly on the path to healthcare system breakdown. There is plenty of science to back this up. Hinshaw knows this and should also know that there is no evidence of voluntary measures being able to stop the spread in liberal democracies based on legal principles of individualism. People on this forum are saying we should be happy just to be mediocre when compared to other countries because that's ok. If their family members were the ones dying they wouldn't be saying that.

Sorry I missed that you are now a leading health care professional and a Magistrate ruling on the admissibility of common use vernacular terms such as "hearsay" (on a hockey board lol) which is a term not limited to jurisprudence but is a commonly used word.

Anything else you want to disclose you are? Head of WHO?

lol that you're chiding me on the use of one word when you've concluded that Hinshaw is in
Dereliction of duty" and needs to be fired. You also called her a coward, and suggested she has not followed her professional oath of conduct. Bold claims. Zero substantiation.

You're making all these outlandish comments while claiming you are a "health policy expert" who could do a better job than Hinshaw "in a moment"

Which only leaves me thinking we should reasonably expect better of our :Health policy experts"




hear·say

noun

1. information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate;

 

[MaxR11]

It isn't "hearsay" (please do not use technical legal terms outside of their meaning). A majority of experts agree that we are clearly on the path to healthcare system breakdown. There is plenty of science to back this up. Hinshaw knows this and should also know that there is no evidence of voluntary measures being able to stop the spread in liberal democracies based on legal principles of individualism. People on this forum are saying we should be happy just to be mediocre when compared to other countries because that's ok. If their family members were the ones dying they wouldn't be saying that.

Even the media is perplexed. They've literally been asking her the same question for weeks/months at the media avail things like "soooo, you've been asking albertans to walk with you and do better and that the time is critical NOW to change things and are implementing voluntary measures for weeks/months..... at what point will you realize they aren't listening and that these volunteer measures are not working and you need stronger measures?" And she comes up with the same bs non- answer every time. It is so clear that a lot of her answers recently have become essentially non-answers.

 

[MaxR11]

You can't see the difference between Hinshaw's demonstrated competence and Tam stating "Covid 19 is not a threat to Canadians, Canadians will not be harmed by this" Or Tam telling us not to wear masks, "Its not Science"

Seeing as you need a refresher, here's a summary of the federal response under Tam.


The road to Canada's COVID-19 outbreak: timeline of federal government failure at border to slow the virus | Edmonton Journal

I'm referring to Hinshaw's lack of action here. Tam may have giving conflicting advice (and i do criticize her for that) but hinshaw and UCP are being negligent imo. I know you wont agree so no need to explain.

 

[Little Fury]

cute gaslighting.

Not what gaslighting means but go off.

Sad that you think the only way the government can help is to put the entire country into so much debt future generations will be crippled because of it.

Can you tell me how the government can help people stave off massive personal debt, bankruptcy, poverty and more without increased spending on social services? Can empathy pay people's heating bills?

But like I said you don’t care about that because the effects of it won’t fall on your shoulders. You can help people now without crippling people in the future.

If you assume the economy is going to be garbage forever, then yeah I could see increased debt being an issue at some distant point in the future, at which point my kid and her generation ill have to deal with it. But allowing the economy to tank by letting people fend for themselves as job losses mount is a sure fire way to delay any post-COVID recovery and require a large scale increase in public spending anyway. In other words, all you do by not agreeing to a massive public relief program now is kick the can down the road a year or two instead of 15, 20 or never (as long as Canada can continue to service its debt).

 

[MaxR11]

What do you want them to do?

I've outlined it in many posts and i think similarly along the lines of the docs in the articles i posted. You can check it out if you wish.

 

[Stoneman89]

I'm referring to Hinshaw's lack of action here. Tam may have giving conflicting advice (and i do criticize her for that) but hinshaw and UCP are being negligent imo. I know you wont agree so no need to explain.

But the "lack of action" is an opinion of yours, not a distortion of facts.

 

[Stoneman89]

I've outlined it in many posts and i think similarly along the lines of the docs in the articles i posted. You can check it out if you wish.

They have put out an order to limit size of gatherings (good luck enforcing that with those that believe they can get away with it). Masks are mandatory in ALL public places. They have practically locked down the hospitals (my wife works there and can confirm that), and same goes for seniors facilities(only visitors are essential caregivers, and meetings have to be pre-arranged in the public portion of the facility. My 94 year old mom is in one of these) Others have complete lockdown with no visitors. Your assumption that gyms and other places are full of super spreaders has not been substantiated. If it can be, then no problem shutting them down. Again, other than a blanket over the entire or nearly the entire province, I'm not sure what else you want.