OT: Coronavirus XXV: Cases Soaring in Many Parts of North America

[MaxR11]

But the "lack of action" is an opinion of yours, not a distortion of facts.

Tam blundered some things. There's no question. It was early in the pandemic and it was hard to really know what was what. I was critical of her. And why the heck can I not criticize Hinshaw if in my opinion (sure) I highly disagree with her and the UCP's handling of this that imo can and is negatively affecting Albertans more than I believe needs be. Yes, it's opinions. Just like your's and other's opinion that you think she's doing a bang up job. It doesn't make it any more correct than my opinion or GG's opinion or inside knowledge of things.

 

[MaxR11]

They have put out an order to limit size of gatherings (good luck enforcing that with those that believe they can get away with it). Masks are mandatory in ALL public places. They have practically locked down the hospitals (my wife works there and can confirm that), and same goes for seniors facilities(only visitors are essential caregivers, and meetings have to be pre-arranged in the public portion of the facility. My 94 year old mom is in one of these) Others have complete lockdown with no visitors. Your assumption that gyms and other places are full of super spreaders has not been substantiated. If it can be, then no problem shutting them down. Again, other than a blanket over the entire or nearly the entire province, I'm not sure what else you want.

I've already gotten into this debate with another poster recently. You can check out our exchange if you wish. If you think it's ok to let the numbers and hospitalizations continue unabated as they are now without further action than that's your opinion and we'll disagree. Thanks.

 

[Stoneman89]

Tam blundered some things. There's no question. It was early in the pandemic and it was hard to really know what was what. I was critical of her. And why the heck can I not criticize Hinshaw if in my opinion (sure) I highly disagree with her and the UCP's handling of this that imo can and is negatively affecting Albertans more than I believe needs be. Yes, it's opinions. Just like your's and other's opinion that you think she's doing a bang up job. It doesn't make it any more correct than my opinion or GG's opinion or inside knowledge of things.

I respect your opinion on how you think Hinshaw is handling things, and never said you couldn't have one. But I disagree that she is having strings pulled and is not listening to science anymore. But I will respect her assessment over yours, thankyou. Again, Tam has spread misinformation, some of it early on, and some later. There is no denying that, and there is documented proof of it. Information that, based on her stature, position, and experience, she should have known better. Yes, she has given some good info as well, but unfortunately, her mishandling of key info that the public needed at crucial times, have now led to a lack of trust in future assessments.

 

[nabob]

Not what gaslighting means but go off.



Can you tell me how the government can help people stave off massive personal debt, bankruptcy, poverty and more without increased spending on social services? Can empathy pay people's heating bills?



If you assume the economy is going to be garbage forever, then yeah I could see increased debt being an issue at some distant point in the future, at which point my kid and her generation ill have to deal with it. But allowing the economy to tank by letting people fend for themselves as job losses mount is a sure fire way to delay any post-COVID recovery and require a large scale increase in public spending anyway. In other words, all you do by not agreeing to a massive public relief program now is kick the can down the road a year or two instead of 15, 20 or never (as long as Canada can continue to service its debt).

Where have I said that I’m not in favor of government aid? That’s you putting words in my mouth as usual. Seems you can’t make a post without doing that.

 

[Giggli G]

Sorry I missed that you are now a leading health care professional and a Magistrate ruling on the admissibility of common use vernacular terms such as "hearsay" (on a hockey board lol) which is a term not limited to jurisprudence but is a commonly used word.

Anything else you want to disclose you are? Head of WHO?

lol that you're chiding me on the use of one word when you've concluded Hinshaw is in
Dereliction of duty" and needs to be fired. You also called her a coward, and suggested she has not followed her professional oath of conduct. Bold claims. Zero substantiation.

You're making all these outlandish comments while claiming you are a "health policy expert" who could do a better job than Hinshaw "in a moment"




hear·say

noun

1. information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate;

You are actually getting really warm lol. And it's not an important point but I would say you were using hearsay incorrectly in the common sense as well. It was a misrepresentation of what I said.

I'm signing off this discussion because it is very bad for my mental health as a person grieving a loss from covid. I'll conclude by saying I can understand why people want to defend Hinshaw, but she has diverged significantly from Bonnie and I would never consider them equivalent at this point. I would just end by saying that its fine to have a perspective on Hinshaw, what's not fine is thinking that what is in the process of happening right now is OK or acceptable. This is the government's responsibility. And I happen to have near 100% certainty that voluntary measures and the measures currently in place will not reverse the trend. Good night.

 

[nabob]

Exactly. Its really incredible how Hinshaw is getting the specific blame by some. Agree that she has been calm, thoughful, compassionate and to the point where I think a lot of people tune into Hinshaw and Henry just to get a dose of reassurance, clarity. She's an exceptional speaker and writer. Did you see the Takedown she wrote on the Barrington Declaration? Its exceptionally well written, she's a rare breed today in terms of how astute, eloquent she is.

I'll link it again, well worth reading.

Herd immunity and the Great Barrington Declaration

I think she actually intimidates a lot of people. People tend yo dislike things or people that intimidate them.

 

[T-Funk]

I find it funny that we are just assuming Hinshaw has no outside pressures that are forcing her into the unenviable position of balancing doing what is best for her patients/the population and what is best for her higher-ups. Like that would never happen in the healthcare profession lolllllll
Personally I hope her dialed back zero repercussions approach isn't truly what she feels deep down, cause it's a lame response and 180 degrees from her opinions in March IMO.

 

[MaxR11]

I respect your opinion on how you think Hinshaw is handling things, and never said you couldn't have one. But I disagree that she is having strings pulled and is not listening to science anymore. But I will respect her assessment over yours, thankyou. Again, Tam has spread misinformation, some of it early on, and some later. There is no denying that, and there is documented proof of it. Information that, based on her stature, position, and experience, she should have known better. Yes, she has given some good info as well, but unfortunately, her mishandling of key info that the public needed at crucial times, have now led to a lack of trust in future assessments.

That's fair and we just have a few fundamental disagreements. And I will respect many other medical professionals opinion that the UCP govt is not handling this situation properly. Hinshaw says a lot of really good things, there is no doubt about this and she has a lot of solid info she dispenses. Now here's where we are going to very much disagree on... I DO think she is not completely allowed to do what she wants to do or at least being heavily swayed by the UCP and their political motives as far as ACTION in mitigating things with stronger measures. I highly suspect if there was another govt in place they would allow her more free reign to do the right things unabated. Now we do not need to go into a back and forth regarding that point as we will vehemently disagree about it but it is my opinion and that of my doctor friend's and many many of their colleagues. Does it mean it's fact? Of course not but it's a very valid possibility given what we are seeing.

 

[Stoneman89]

I find it funny that we are just assuming Hinshaw has no outside pressures that are forcing her into the unenviable position of balancing doing what is best for her patients/the population and what is best for her higher-ups. Like that would never happen in the healthcare profession lolllllll
Personally I hope her dialed back zero repercussions approach isn't truly what she feels deep down, cause it's a lame response and 180 degrees from her opinions in March IMO.

In case you haven't been paying attention, she has to consider what is best for the population and how far the needle can be pushed before other measures need to be taken. She's done that since the beginning and has never wavered. Bonnie Henry in B.C has done the same thing. And I guess Fauci never disagreed with Trump!
And this isn't March anymore. We know infinitely more about the disease, and also where it tends to permeate, as well as certain preventative measures and hotspots, as well as learning lessons from the last lockdown. Based on that, to think that we should just blindly go forth with the same action we took in March when virtually nothing was known about this, is the real lame response, IMO.

 

[MaxR11]

You are actually getting really warm lol. And it's not an important point but I would say you were using hearsay incorrectly in the common sense as well. It was a misrepresentation of what I said.

I'm signing off this discussion because it is very bad for my mental health as a person grieving a loss from covid. I'll conclude by saying I can understand why people want to defend Hinshaw, but she has diverged significantly from Bonnie and I would never consider them equivalent at this point. I would just end by saying that its fine to have a perspective on Hinshaw, what's not fine is thinking that what is in the process of happening right now is OK or acceptable. This is the government's responsibility. And I happen to have near 100% certainty that voluntary measures and the measures currently in place will not reverse the trend. Good night.

Thanks for your input and take care. Again, best wishes for your wife and future child.

 

[Drivesaitl]

You are actually getting really warm lol. And it's not an important point but I would say you were using hearsay incorrectly in the common sense as well. It was a misrepresentation of what I said.

I'm signing off this discussion because it is very bad for my mental health as a person grieving a loss from covid. I'll conclude by saying I can understand why people want to defend Hinshaw, but she has diverged significantly from Bonnie and I would never consider them equivalent at this point. I would just end by saying that its fine to have a perspective on Hinshaw, what's not fine is thinking that what is in the process of happening right now is OK or acceptable. This is the government's responsibility. And I happen to have near 100% certainty that voluntary measures and the measures currently in place will not reverse the trend. Good night.

You had no basis in which to claim "dereliction of duty" Which is one reason you are signing off on this exchange. Also, as a professional that is held to conduct I doubt you would be in the habit, or should be, of making such claims while citing your professional livelihood as a presumed basis for making them.

Also interesting that you have "near 100% certainty" that present measures will not ultimately be successful in reversing Covid-19 trend.

Of course when you are proved wrong in that you won't be anywhere to be seen.

Sorry you are grieving. A Pandemic of a century is a terrible thing.

You've also acknowledged being angry about it, which is understandable, but anger isn't always conducive to expressing ones self effectively and is more related to uttering unsubstantiated "angry" claims.

 

[Stoneman89]

That's fair and we just have a few fundamental disagreements. And I will respect many other medical professionals opinion that the UCP govt is not handling this situation properly. Hinshaw says a lot of really good things, there is no doubt about this and she has a lot of solid info she dispenses. Now here's where we are going to very much disagree on... I DO think she is not completely allowed to do what she wants to do or at least being heavily swayed by the UCP and their political motives as far as ACTION in mitigating things with stronger measures. I highly suspect if there was another govt in place they would allow her more free reign to do the right things unabated. Now we do not need to go into a back and forth regarding that point as we will vehemently disagree about it but it is my opinion and that of my doctor friend's and many many of their colleagues. Does it mean it's fact? Of course not but it's a very valid possibility given what we are seeing.

In something as important and incredibly difficult as this, there is going to be disagreement, even amoungst some in the medical community. And in so many other provinces, and so many countries and regions around the world, healthcare professionals are faced with similar or worse situations, and I'm sure there is some widespread disagreement on how things have been, and should be handled.

 

[BoldNewLettuce]

All these politicians saying not to lock down we need to use this time to figure out how to not get them political power.....like months ago....

 

[MaxR11]

You had no basis in which to claim "dereliction of duty" Which is one reason you are signing off on this exchange. Also, as a professional that is held to conduct I doubt you would be in the habit, or should be, of making such claims while citing your professional livelihood as a presumed basis for making them.

Also interesting that you have "near 100% certainty" that present measures will not ultimately be successful in reversing Covid-19 trend.

Of course when you are proved wrong in that you won't be anywhere to be seen.

Sorry you are grieving. A Pandemic of a century is a terrible thing.

You've also acknowledged being angry about it, which is understandable, but anger isn't always conducive to expressing ones self effectively and is more related to uttering unsubstantiated "angry" claims.

Look, you gotta take it easy. You're triggered because people are criticizing someone you highly admire. The guy went out on a limb and revealed what sector of the medical field he's in. I think there needs to be more respect shown for that.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Look, you gotta take it easy. You're triggered because people are criticizing someone you highly admire. The guy went out on a limb and revealed what sector of the medical field he's in. I think there needs to be more respect shown for that.

The person revealed something different than an informed or balanced or scientific position.

You're only stating the bolded because the poster, whoever they are, is saying something you agree with.

The poster in question has flamed people here before and has again. Pretty expected. The posters initial volley in the thread was disgust and contempt directed at hfboards and the opinions expressed in this thread.

Respect is not unconditional. The posters claims in this thread lack merit.

You should read Deena Hinshaws take down on the Barrington Declaration. You could actually be potentially impressed. If you're being at all open to her.

I don't need to support her, no horse in this race really, I happen to defend her because of what I've seen from her and just think its right to do so. I'm actually known to be critical, even overtly, so take that with a grain of salt. I'm positive towards those public figures that deserve it.

 

[MaxR11]

The person revealed something different than an informed or balanced or scientific position.

You're only stating the bolded because the poster, whoever they are, is saying something you agree with.

The poster in question has flamed people here before and has again. Pretty expected. The posters initial volley in the thread was disgust and contempt directed at hfboards and the opinions expressed in this thread.

Respect is not unconditional. The posters claims in this thread lack merit.

You should read Deena Hinshaws take down on the Barrington Declaration. You could actually be potentially impressed. If you're being at all open to her.

I don't need to support her, no horse in this race really, I happen to defend her because of what I've seen from her and just think its right to do so. I'm actually known to be critical, even overtly, so take that with a grain of salt. I'm positive towards those public figures that deserve it.

I've read her piece. I've said several times that she does say a lot of good things. Her actions in the fall leaves a lot to be desired though. Now whether that's all on her or if she's being hindered and or affected by the ruling govt is questionable. My gut tells me deep down she wanted to do the short term lockdowns and at a much earlier time but who knows.

His claims do have a lot of merit. As I said, I'm speaking with a friend who is a doctor and they have regular medical association meetings and it's fairly consensus that Hinshaw and the UCP are really messing up as far as actions and measures. Point is some of her messaging is not matching her actions or lack thereof.

I do not know GG's history on the board but what he says regarding the covid situation very much so matches what i'm hearing from some very intelligent docs who are not only great at their jobs but even better people.

 

[GretzkytoKurri9917]

 

[Spawn]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calg...er-restrictions-as-covid-cases-rise-1.5798822

Alberta's government is weighing new restrictions for the province as it sees record breaking COVID-19 numbers.
The restrictions could include things like capacity limits on worship services and higher-risk activities like fitness classes. There may also be lesser changes for businesses, like reducing capacity or operating hours.
Two officials told CBC News that an impromptu cabinet meeting was held on Wednesday to discuss the options on the table, and that measures are set to be announced at the chief medical officer's news conference scheduled for Thursday. Those new rules have not yet been made final.
The officials were not authorized to speak publicly about the changes, so CBC News has agreed not to name them.
The changes will be in line with what the premier's messaging has been for the past few weeks, with only modest and targeted measures.
One official said no business closures are expected to be announced, as the options under consideration are more focused on social gatherings and places where large groupings could occur.
Both government officials said these new measures do not constitute a lockdown, phrasing the premier has also resisted.

 

[T-Funk]

In case you haven't been paying attention, she has to consider what is best for the population and how far the needle can be pushed before other measures need to be taken. She's done that since the beginning and has never wavered. Bonnie Henry in B.C has done the same thing. And I guess Fauci never disagreed with Trump!
And this isn't March anymore. We know infinitely more about the disease, and also where it tends to permeate, as well as certain preventative measures and hotspots, as well as learning lessons from the last lockdown. Based on that, to think that we should just blindly go forth with the same action we took in March when virtually nothing was known about this, is the real lame response, IMO.

Unfortunately I've been paying too much attention to all of this.

My personal take is that you ENFORCE the recommendations because ignoring them is costing the province and country a ton of money and harming people's health.
Physical distance, wear a mask OVER YOUR NOSE, businesses set policies to keep clients and staff safe, don't go for frivolous trips multiple times for essentials, LIMIT restaurant visits, LIMIT wedding and funeral sizes, isolate when you're sick and don't have more than 10-15 people in your home (this one should be so easy). If you aren't doing those things, that I would argue are not huge asks, then you enforce it with fines or lockdown again. Hinshaw is stating somewhat similar things, but then she's doing the equivalent of a parent counting to 3 for 20 minutes when she needs to be the bad cop.

I don't want anyone to lockdown unless there is widespread flippancy to the rules.
Not my fault it got to that point.

 

[MaxR11]

Hinshaw is stating somewhat similar things, but then she's doing the equivalent of a parent counting to 3 for 20 minutes when she needs to be the bad cop.

I don't want anyone to lockdown unless there is widespread flippancy to the rules.
Not my fault it got to that point.

Exactly.

 

[bellagiobob]

 

[OfCorsiDid]

Yo, guys, is political discussion permitted?

 

[nabob]

Unfortunately I've been paying too much attention to all of this.

My personal take is that you ENFORCE the recommendations because ignoring them is costing the province and country a ton of money and harming people's health.
Physical distance, wear a mask OVER YOUR NOSE, businesses set policies to keep clients and staff safe, don't go for frivolous trips multiple times for essentials, LIMIT restaurant visits, LIMIT wedding and funeral sizes, isolate when you're sick and don't have more than 10-15 people in your home (this one should be so easy). If you aren't doing those things, that I would argue are not huge asks, then you enforce it with fines or lockdown again. Hinshaw is stating somewhat similar things, but then she's doing the equivalent of a parent counting to 3 for 20 minutes when she needs to be the bad cop.

I don't want anyone to lockdown unless there is widespread flippancy to the rules.
Not my fault it got to that point.

1. how is shutting down businesses that are following all the protocols going to stop people from having gatherings of more than 10-15 people in their home?

2. How do you limit how many restaurants a person goes to or limit the number of stores they go to in a week?

Does the province attach a personal bylaw officer to every citizen? Do they implant tracking chips into everyone so they can monitor how many stores they go to? Seriously how do you suggest they enforce the things you suggest?

 

[MaxR11]

Kudos to this business. Had to give them a shoutout because they get it.

 

[GretzkytoKurri9917]

Yo, guys, is political discussion permitted?