OT: Coronavirus XXV: Cases Soaring in Many Parts of North America

[Drivesaitl]

It relates to how he is handling the pandemic.

jebus

Somebody else can remind you its a politically charged comment.

I'm done.

 

[CupofOil]

I think part of the issue is you think a lockdown means FULL lockdown. No it's not. It's still targeted lockdowns as we see. Restaurants aren't closed... just closed to indoor dining. Yes, maybe things like gyms and arena will be shut down for a couple weeks but it's not as complete a lockdown as i think you're believing it to be. I believe the many medical professionals who advocate this know better in that it will work.

And i think you keep missing the point over and over. It's partly to stop the rise in hospitalization to let the health care system catch up... it's ridiculous to let it keep rising beyond their capability. And you can't just act WHEN it happens, you have to be proactive so you don't get into that shit storm.

I get that but what are they going to do after things open up again and cases rise exponentially? Shut down again and then again and again?

See, when I think lockdown, I think what we saw in early March when all non-essential businesses were shut down. What you're proposing is targeted restrictions to a few businesses so we're not far off with that thought process. Personally, I don't think gyms and arenas are the sources of the big spreader events. I don't go to gyms even in normal times (bacteria traps) but all I've seen is gyms following the right protocols so it's kind of punishing them for what people are doing on their personal time, mostly younger people having large indoor gatherings like the recent Halloween party fiascos in Canada and the U.S. for example. I just don't know how you prevent gatherings like those.

Either way, there are no easy decisions to be made. Authorities simply can't do nothing but they can't just lockdown anybody just for the sake of it. I say punish those businesses that aren't following the protocols. Bars, for instance, is an example of a business where it's hard to follow protocols because of alcohol consumption and social distancing eventually going by the wayside so maybe shut down some large bars for a time. I don't know. It's tough.

BTW, I'm hearing now on the news that the mayor of New York City is enforcing curfews. Hoo boy, we'll see how that goes. The numbers aren't even that bad here compared to other places although I haven't checked in a few days so maybe something changed since then.

 

[nabob]

Just keep it shut down until the end of winter or whenever it's safe to go out again because the numbers are going to keep rising regardless. You seem to be missing this point time and time again and you're still not offering any solutions on how to stop private gatherings which by many accounts is where the big spread events are starting. How do you prevent somebody from throwing a house party or having friends/family over for a get together? Waht about the holidays? How are you going to prevent people from getting together on American Thanksgiving and Christmas?

That's not to say that some restrictions shouldn't be put in place again especially in harder hit areas and for god sakes, please protect the vulnerable. I just think a full scale lockdown, shutting everything down for a short time, is a band aid solution at best.
There has to be a balance between lockdown and keep everything open.

We will keep going in circles because there's two groups here, those who are constantly thinking worst case scenario and think we should lock it up and those COVID=Flu folks who think everything should go on as normal. I'd like to think that I fall somewhere in between and you definitely fall into the first group so you're right, we'll just agree to disagree.

I actually think that most people fall in the same area as you do. But those who are the extreme worst case scenario brand everyone who doesn’t believe exactly what they do as fools who don’t care about anyone or don’t take the virus seriously at all. I’ve been threatened and had my family members insulted via PM simply for disagreeing with those on the extreme worst case scenario side. It’s quite sad.

 

[MaxR11]

I get that but what are they going to do after things open up again and cases rise exponentially? Shut down again and then again and again?

See, when I think lockdown, I think what we saw in early March when all non-essential businesses were shut down. What you're proposing is targeted restrictions to a few businesses so we're not far off with that thought process. Personally, I don't think gyms and arenas are the sources of the big spreader events. I don't go to gyms but all I've seen is gyms following the right protocols so it's kind of punishing them for what people are doing on their personal time, mostly younger people having large indoor gatherings like the recent Halloween party fiascos in Canada and the U.S. for example. I just don't know how you prevent gatherings like those.

Either way, there are no easy decisions to be made. Authorities simply can't do nothing but they can't just lockdown anybody just for the sake of it. I say punish those businesses that aren't following the protocols. Bars, for instance, is an example of a business where it's hard to follow protocols because of alcohol consumption and social distancing eventually going by the wayside so maybe shut down some large bars for a time. I don't know. It's tough.

And that's why i said in a previous response that it's also a compliance tactic. Yes, you target shut down and if it rises enough again you shut it down again. As i said over and over, and i know we disagree on this but, eventually some people will get it and there will be BETTER (not perfect but better) overall compliance and it could mean a massive difference in numbers.

No matter what it's eventually going to be necessary to shut down when hospitalizations reach a certain point. Why not be proactive and do it before that occurs for the sake of people in general and the health care professionals?

There's growing suspicion that indoor dining and gyms do cause enough spread to warrant attention. We have about 50% unknown source of infection here and i suspect a significant enough portion may be coming from there.

 

[BudBundy]

Our dollar is fixed to the US dollar on a floating exchange.”

“That doesn’t change the fact that Canada can’t default on its debt”

Our exchange rate cannot both be fixed to the US dollar and floating. It’s literally a contradiction in terms. We aren’t fixed to the US dollar any more than we are to the renminbi or yen, or pound sterling.

And it is completely false that Canada is somehow incapable of default on its debt.

 

[Ritchie Valens]

As we quickly swing into the Christmas season, I wonder if retailers (both big box and little box) will start providing some sort of incentive to online shoppers to have curbside/parking lot pickup instead of attending the store to shop inside. Like offer a certain % off in increments depending on how much you spend.

If I was a grocery store operator, I'd offer an automatic 10-15% off your bill to have groceries picked up in the parking lot or delivered to your home, whether you needed a bag of sugar or spent $300.

 

[MaxR11]

jebus

Somebody else can remind you its a politically charged comment.

I'm done.

I'm not sure how you dont realize that a main covid issue here in Alberta is how the provincial govt is handling it. It's impossible not to go there when discussing covid when that has likely been the hottest topic regarding covid in our province.

 

[Sensmileletsgo]

As we quickly swing into the Christmas season, I wonder if retailers (both big box and little box) will start providing some sort of incentive to online shoppers to have curbside/parking lot pickup instead of attending the store to shop inside. Like offer a certain % off in increments depending on how much you spend.

If I was a grocery store operator, I'd offer an automatic 10-15% off your bill to have groceries picked up in the parking lot or delivered to your home, whether you needed a bag of sugar or spent $300.

Makes sense in theory, but in reality it means you need staff running around and managing the pick up. That’s why superstore and Ikea charges $5 for curb side pick up.

 

[CupofOil]

I actually think that most people fall in the same area as you do. But those who are the extreme worst case scenario brand everyone who doesn’t believe exactly what they do as fools who don’t care about anyone or don’t take the virus seriously at all. I’ve been threatened and had my family members insulted via PM simply for disagreeing with those on the extreme worst case scenario side. It’s quite sad.

It's crazy although it's not just exclusive to HF.
You have the fear mongers who are overstating how deadly it is or how deadly it will be and only post citations that paint worst case scenarios and then you have the opposite extreme which lacks empathy and is essentially calling this a flu and no big deal and only post citations that follow their point of view.

I just don't understand why more folks, and this goes for all walks of life, can't simply see things down the middle somewhat, use some common sense, use critical thinking and open up their mind a bit beyond their usual rigid thinking. Now moreso than ever you're seeing so much division and not enough patience to maybe meet somebody halfway. It's just emotional response after emotional response, I'm going to think what I think and that's that. Frustrating and FWIW, I'm not singing out HK97 here.

 

[CupofOil]

And that's why i said in a previous response that it's also a compliance tactic. Yes, you target shut down and if it rises enough again you shut it down again. As i said over and over, and i know we disagree on this but, eventually some people will get it and there will be BETTER (not perfect but better) overall compliance and it could mean a massive difference in numbers.

No matter what it's eventually going to be necessary to shut down when hospitalizations reach a certain point. Why not be proactive and do it before that occurs for the sake of people in general and the health care professionals?

There's growing suspicion that indoor dining and gyms do cause enough spread to warrant attention. We have about 50% unknown source of infection here and i suspect a significant enough portion may be coming from there.

A lot of the spread is coming from indoor gatherings of all kinds. The difference between owner run businesses and personal residences is that a lot of businesses are following protocols while chances are that (relative to businesses) people in their personal space without restrictions are not following protocols, add in a lot of drinking going on at these gatherings and you have a problem.

I just think it's a slap in the face to those who are abiding by the rules, these businesses with socially distanced protocols in place, to shut them down because of the lax judgment of those who are not following protocols on their own personal time.

 

[harpoon]

I have laid out the map of what happens if a country continues going down the path that we are most certainly on. We are not in a debt trap crisis yet. I have no problems spending to mitigate the current crisis. HOWEVER our current government was spending foolishly before this crisis. And once this crisis is past, some concentrated efforts, some short term pain in terms of tax increases and spending cuts are going to be a necessity and I don’t see our current leadership being up to the task. Doing the right thing is hard when an uneducated electorate punishes you for doing so.

But we have that weed tax now ... so probably all good, right?

 

[Ritchie Valens]

Makes sense in theory, but in reality it means you need staff running around and managing the pick up. That’s why superstore and Ikea charges $5 for curb side pick up.

I used a grocery store as an example as they're crowded the most and yes, in that regard they'd have to hire more staff to do the collecting but retailers like Best Buy, Visions, Toys R Us, etc. could use it as a benefit without having to bring too many extra staffers on board.

If society wants more people to stay at home and avoid large capacity crowds to limit infection, that little extra incentive to save shoppers a few extra bucks by shopping online and having curbside pickup might help more shoppers to do that.

 

[MaxR11]

A lot of the spread is coming from indoor gatherings of all kinds. The difference between owner run businesses and personal residences is that a lot of businesses are following protocols while chances are that (relative to businesses) people in their personal space without restrictions are not following protocols, add in a lot of drinking going on at these gatherings and you have a problem.

I just think it's a slap in the face to those who are abiding by the rules, these businesses with socially distanced protocols in place, to shut them down because of the lax judgment of those who are not following protocols on their own personal time.

Part of it also is reducing the amount of spread from those idiots gathering irresponsibly to the general public when you do some of the lock downs. But even then, as i said it's a way to get people's attention. You don't think the people gathering irresponsibly care if their gyms, arenas, bars etc are locked down? Of course they do. It at least sends some of them a message to be more careful.... help reduce the spread and we can keep things open. People aren't realizing the extent to which a portion of the public and even in general have checked out or have been a bit too lax.

You don't think there will be a shutdown anyway when the health care system crashes? It's likely gonna happen eventually.

 

[GretzkytoKurri9917]

672 new cases
217 in Hospitals
46 in intensive care
383 deaths

 

[MaxR11]

A lot of the spread is coming from indoor gatherings of all kinds. The difference between owner run businesses and personal residences is that a lot of businesses are following protocols while chances are that (relative to businesses) people in their personal space without restrictions are not following protocols, add in a lot of drinking going on at these gatherings and you have a problem.

I just think it's a slap in the face to those who are abiding by the rules, these businesses with socially distanced protocols in place, to shut them down because of the lax judgment of those who are not following protocols on their own personal time.

Honestly I do not think we're too far off in our views much as I'm not far off from several other poster's views as well. I think there are literally only a handful of posters I almost completely disagree with and I suspect they are the same ones you may not see eye to eye as well. The small gaps seem to be amplified in times like this. I'm not saying my stance is for sure the right one as we dont really know with something as unprecedented as this. Anyone one of us can be dead wrong regarding many little issues surrounding this situation. Right now my stance is backed by many medical professionals here and that's where I'm going to stand for now. People are right though, there are other sides/views that garner attention. But at this point i'm going to back the majority of health care professionals

 

[PositiveCashFlow]

I really hope we hit resistance

 

[PositiveCashFlow]

I kind of wish o could see how many tests were done

 

[Giggli G]

Deena Hinshaw and Bonnie Henry are the very best Govt Health representatives in Canada. I mean we all understand the pain, the frustration, the devestation, of the pandemic.

But really to blame Hinshaw for it is conduct unbecoming. Would you want her job? She has been a provincial treasure and deserves every credit for standing up several times a week while people deliver scorn because she doesn't magically make Covid disappear. Hinshaw is well spoken, credible, knows her stuff and answers any and all questions competently. She's top notch. Do I disagree with some of the statements, policy, sure, that always happens. Have I ever felt she lacks credibility. no.

Your post is classic blame the messenger. While stating others "should be ashamed of their bullshit"

You see nothing wrong with that?

1. Saying everyone understands the pain is so out of touch. You have shown zero compassion, first of all. People understand the pain of losing their old way of life, except for the ones who completely ignore that and just act normal. They do not empathize with the pain I am feeling from losing a loved one and having the necessity of highly risky hospital care in the near future, if they did they would change their behaviour on a population basis. Many people don't care at all.

2. I would take Hinshaw's job in a second, and would use the information provided to whistleblow on what is clearly a bad job being done by this government. She took an oath of professional conduct and has become a political mouthpiece, her obligation as a medical doctor and public health expert is to the general population. Her credibility is shot, I happen to know a lot about this pandemic, about public health and about the science of lockdowns. I'd tell you more about my job but it's so specific that you would be able to identify me immediately from a google search, so you'll just have to take my word for it.

3. You say blame the messenger. Hinshaw is not merely a messenger, that's the point. She is the chief medical officer of Alberta, a job that comes with the obligation to protect public health. You are fundamentally misunderstanding her job. She is not a press secretary. Since you are explicitly admitting that she has simply become a messenger, your argument only supports the idea that she is in dereliction of duty and needs to resign and speak out.

 

[MaxR11]

1. Saying everyone understands the pain is so out of touch. You have shown zero compassion, first of all. People understand the pain of losing their old way of life, except for the ones who completely ignore that and just act normal. They do not empathize with the pain I am feeling from losing a loved one and having the necessity of highly risky hospital care in the near future, if they did they would change their behaviour on a population basis. Many people don't care at all.

2. I would take Hinshaw's job in a second, and would use the information provided to whistleblow on what is clearly a bad job being done by this government. She took an oath of professional conduct and has become a political mouthpiece, her obligation as a medical doctor and public health expert is to the general population. Her credibility is shot, I happen to know a lot about this pandemic, about public health and about the science of lockdowns. I'd tell you more about my job but it's so specific that you would be able to identify me immediately from a google search, so you'll just have to take my word for it.

3. You say blame the messenger. Hinshaw is not merely a messenger, that's the point. She is the chief medical officer of Alberta, a job that comes with the obligation to protect public health. You are fundamentally misunderstanding her job. She is not a press secretary. Since you are explicitly admitting that she has simply become a messenger, your argument only supports the idea that she is in dereliction of duty and needs to resign and speak out.

Bang on from someone who is ACTUALLY in the know of what's going on and in the midst of the situation.

You'd be doing us all a huge service if you can divulge as much info/expertise as you know regarding the overall situation. I think we all could use more of your insight.

 

[BlueCheeseWithWings]

Ticketmaster could require proof of COVID-19 vaccination for concerts

 

[Stoneman89]

Ugh. Why did I come on this thread. Some of you should be ashamed of your bullshit.

FYI I already lost a relative to COVID, went into organ failure three days after showing symptoms. Died alone, spouse couldn't even be there. And my wife is 38 weeks pregnant, I will be heading to the hospital right during hospitalization surge and just praying it is properly staffed and we don't get the virus or give it to my infant. We've been trying to have a kid for 3 years. Surgeries, procedures and tens of thousands of dollars later we were able to get pregnant through IVF. Now we are at the mercy of this.

All in all I've never been more angry at my fellow Albertans and my provincial government. I'm a health policy expert by day, the position of this government is indefensible. Hinshaw is being a coward and needs to resign and unveil what's going on if they won't take mandatory measures. We have multiple vaccines on the horizon for distribution by mid 2021, people just need to "keep it in their pants" through the winter. Instead we are going to let hundreds more die and thousands more get chronic lung and heart damage. And the economic arguments are largely misleading because a healthy public that feels safe is what will normalize economic activity. We are the economy. It's just a shame.

While I am sensitive to your individual situations and experiences and am sorry for your loss and current plight, you might want to save your vitriol for those that don't give a shit and keep having large gatherings and house parties. I haven't seen anyone on here state that they're doing that. Matter of fact, even the "anti-maskers" sound like they're abiding by the wishes, albeit complaining about it. And I agree with Draisaitl. Blaming Hinshaw is pure bullshit. I think she's doing a remarkable job based on the stressful circumstances. Always blows me away, when people are so quick to criticize others who have to make tough decisions. Pretty sure if it was one of us, there would be plenty of dissenters out there. If people think they have all the answers, then step up to the plate, and tell us all of the grand plan.

 

[nabob]

While I am sensitive to your individual situations and experiences and am sorry for your loss and current plight, you might want to save your vitriol for those that don't give a shit and keep having large gatherings and house parties. I haven't seen anyone on here state that they're doing that. Matter of fact, even the "anti-maskers" sound like they're abiding by the wishes, albeit complaining about it. And I agree with Draisaitl. Blaming Hinshaw is pure bullshit. I think she's doing a remarkable job based on the stressful circumstances. Always blow me away, when people are so quick to criticize others who have to make tough decisions. Pretty sure if it was one of us, there would be plenty of dissenters out there. If people think they have all the answers, then step up to the plate.

It really is sad how those with political motives have turned on her and do nothing but viciously attack a woman who has done so much for our province. I just imagine how much better shape Canada would be in as a while if we had someone like Hinshaw in Tam’s position. She’s exactly the type of person you want making decisions in circumstances like these. Calm, thoughtful, compassionate.

 

[Stoneman89]

672 new cases
217 in Hospitals
46 in intensive care
383 deaths

Not dismissing the high numbers but...weren't we at 700+ a few days ago, and some people were saying we soon would be at 800 and then 1000 by months end?

 

[Stoneman89]

It really is sad how those with political motives have turned on her and do nothing but viciously attack a woman who has done so much for our province. I just imagine how much better shape Canada would be in as a while if we had someone like Hinshaw in Tam’s position. She’s exactly the type of person you want making decisions in circumstances like these. Calm, thoughtful, compassionate.

Agreed. Everyone has an idea as to how they'd like this to work. She is hired to make that decision based on her expertise and experience. Combine that with her sincerity, calmness and compassion in a high wire act, and I am confident we have the best person in the right spot. And I doubt she is a puppet of Kenney. I think they both know that shutting down restaurants and bookstores isn't going to stop the idiots from gathering en masse in private.

As for Tam, and our national health minister, I'm not sure I can add anything else regarding the way they've handled this, other than what has been stated ad naseum.

 

[Giggli G]

While I am sensitive to your individual situations and experiences and am sorry for your loss and current plight, you might want to save your vitriol for those that don't give a shit and keep having large gatherings and house parties. I haven't seen anyone on here state that they're doing that. Matter of fact, even the "anti-maskers" sound like they're abiding by the wishes, albeit complaining about it. And I agree with Draisaitl. Blaming Hinshaw is pure bullshit. I think she's doing a remarkable job based on the stressful circumstances. Always blow me away, when people are so quick to criticize others who have to make tough decisions. Pretty sure if it was one of us, there would be plenty of dissenters out there. If people think they have all the answers, then step up to the plate.

The UCP have really gotten what they wanted out of you from Hinshaw. She's supposed to be immune to criticism on the basis of her being calm and polite. You are doing what they want.

When she was acting in accordance with the science she was all dandy. Now she is a politicised actor with nonanswers to the criticisms of her and the UCP's non evidence based policy. Listen to question period a few times.

"Step up to the plate" means nothing because power and decision making authority are not distributed on the basis of willingness.