OT: Coronavirus XXIV Version B: The Shit Has Hit the Fan in Europe Again :( Take 2

[Drivesaitl]

Only people who I know that enjoyed the CERB life were single young people who went from working part time to making double to sit at home.
For people with families the stress and desperation must have been awful. I’ve only been unemployed for a month out of the last 20 years, but it was stressful enough for me. I couldn’t imagine having it happen when there’s so much doom and gloom, and very little hope for the future.

Like anything this is a choice for people to think about. We're all responsible for whatever mental outlook we have and choosing doom and gloom is always an ill advised choice. Choosing hope is a choice. Gotta say it, but people throughout recorded history had it a hell of a lot harder than anybody can even dream about today and those people were filled with hope and unbridled optimism at the slightest chances of being able to build lives and some prosperity.

That we have people moping about how hard they have it now, I'll say it, is a disgrace to the forefathers that worked hard to bring you to New World lands with untapped resources and opportunities. Living in the first world, born here, having what others in the world can only dream of, and being despondent about it? Time for a reality check.

If a moderate pandemic kicked the shit out of our collective fortitude what would a WW or a great depression or a Cold war do?

Where did our collective resilience go?

 

[MaxR11]

I still think it's a good question. (Not getting into your guys' specific issue.) How do you get things rolling again when the barrier is people themselves not wanting to get sick? Or at least that's a large part of it. If you don't physically force them (obviously we can't do that), then I'm not sure what the solution would be, other than some serious ad-like campaigns or similar such thing.

I think a decent part of it has to do with rising numbers caused by people who are flouting gathering rules. I honestly think if the numbers were a lot more modest people would have found the confidence to be out and about more. Having maybe some better rules and enforcement here and there may help too. I really think, if we didn't have those doofuses out there responsible for quicker spread we'd be in a much better situation as far as consumer confidence and the economy. But that's just society for you. You're gonna have a bunch of those doofuses everywhere.

 

[MaxR11]

Theres no excuse for people to have turned to drug or alcohol abuse at this time and I wouldn't say there are "alarming rates".

This. You only have yourself to blame if this is the route you choose.

 

[SupremeTeam16]

This though is not borne out by any age related statistic. You haven't factored in either that the Edmonton specific numbers were atypical of the province, and the Edmonton numbers specifically, went up before anywhwere else in the province. Why?

What actually is being stated is due to a bunch of dunderheads (and Edmonton has more of those per capita than anywhere in Canada) deciding to have parties, gatherings and with the tracking data largely pointing that way.

Meanwhile there is hardly any cases in the 5-9 age range, either active, or new cases. They just aren't occurring much at all. Very low numbers. There is ramp up in 10-19 age range but this still representing the 4th largest number of either active, or new cases. Behind all of 20-29, 30-39, 40-49. I mean thats what the numbers actually ARE.

I mean any of us can check, all the data is there case notes are there, outbreaks are there, school specific data there. Why do people need to theorize on alternate theory when the data is actually at our disposal, and when you have trustworthy authorities like Hinshaw actually summarizing the data?

I mean its kind of silly to completely anecdotal, and refute all the data provided. Thats just people believing what they want to believe.

Complaining about someone being anecdotal while also using “Edmonton has per capita more “dunderheads?” then anywhere else in Canada” to try and make his point.


20-49 age groups are by far and away the age groups that are most tested, many people in those groups tested quite frequently for work requirements. Children and young adults are some of the least tested age groups, so no duh the groups being tested more often are going to have higher case numbers. The younger age groups also tend to have many more asymptomatic individuals so even though many of them aren’t showing symptoms they are carrying and spreading the virus.


People in Edmonton and the rest of the country were being “dunderheads” in June, July and August and cases were pretty steady for months. Kids and young adults go back to school and 6 weeks later many parts of the country are spiralling into a second wave. Not hard to see what happened and if they tested kids and young adults at the same rate they test 20-50 year olds then I’m sure the data would paint a picture of schools being a virus super highways between households and just as problematic as activities that other groups engage in.

 

[soothsayer]

I think a decent part of it has to do with rising numbers caused by people who are flouting gathering rules. I honestly think if the numbers were a lot more modest people would have found the confidence to be out and about more. Having maybe some better rules and enforcement here and there may help too. I really think, if we didn't have those doofuses out there responsible for quicker spread we'd be in a much better situation as far as consumer confidence and the economy. But that's just society for you. You're gonna have a bunch of those doofuses everywhere.

I'm not a business owner, but I know a few. The few people I know would rather everyone abide by the protocols in place, and be able to keep their business open though not running at full capacity, instead of the all-or-nothing response. That seems reasonable to me. With that said, that's only a few people, and some, maybe even a lot, of small businesses can't subsist at a reduced capacity, and are essentially all-or-nothing for that reason.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Here in Northern UK we are at level 3. Whatever that means

 

[Drivesaitl]

Complaining about someone being anecdotal while also using “Edmonton has per capita more “dunderheads?” then anywhere else in Canada” to try and make his point.


20-49 age groups are by far and away the age groups that are most tested, many people in those groups tested quite frequently for work requirements. Children and young adults are some of the least tested age groups, so no duh the groups being tested more often are going to have higher case numbers. The younger age groups also tend to have many more asymptomatic individuals so even though many of them aren’t showing symptoms they are carrying and spreading the virus.


People in Edmonton and the rest of the country were being “dunderheads” in June, July and August and cases were pretty steady for months. Kids and young adults go back to school and 6 weeks later many parts of the country are spiralling into a second wave. Not hard to see what happened and if they tested kids and young adults at the same rate they test 20-50 year olds then I’m sure the data would paint a picture of schools being a virus super highways between households and just as problematic as activities that other groups engage in.

I said dunderheads for a laugh. How about I be more technical and state that Edmonton has more people with pronounced lifestyle issues per capita than any other city in Canada. I mean we're only ever even rivalled in that by Winnipeg. If you want to really go there I can provide several indicators of this.

In anycase you're still just voicing a theory, albeit I appreciate your explanation, and it laid out in what appear to be sensible argument, but its still not proof at all for what you are stating. Keeping in mind you stated your post as if AHS is hiding something, or are being intentionally misleading. That kind of position puts burden of proof on your end. just saying

 

[MaxR11]

I'm not a business owner, but I know a few. The few people I know would rather everyone abide by the protocols in place, and be able to keep their business open though not running at full capacity, instead of the all-or-nothing response. That seems reasonable to me. With that said, that's only a few people, and some, maybe even a lot, of small businesses can't subsist at a reduced capacity, and are essentially all-or-nothing for that reason.

Ya, I think most businesses are actually doing well with that... at least from the places I've gone to. You're gonna have a few places here and there (ie Greta bar earlier on in the pandemic) that do a bad job and do nothing to gain consumer confidence. The problem with the irresponsible gatherings, as well, is we know it's happening... but we don't know at what places these irresponsible people are working at?... Is she gonna cut your hair? Make/serve your food at a restaurant? Give you a massage? etc etc etc.

 

[BlueCheeseWithWings]

Regional police forces will enforce Covid laws ‘as they see fit’ over Christmas

Police do not currently have the power to enter people’s homes involuntarily in order to check compliance with coronavirus laws, even in “very high” areas under the tightest restrictions.

"Police do not currently have the power to enter people's homes." That is an odd way to phrase it.

Mr Hewitt said there would be an increase in enforcement activity after police leaders received extra funding from the Home Office.

He promised a “shift towards quicker enforcement against those knowingly breaking the rules”, adding: “Where people don’t listen to police officers’ encouragement then we will take action. That is our job and I believe the public expect us to do that.”

I wonder what's next.

 

[Senor Catface]

Nvm

 

[MaxR11]

Regional police forces will enforce Covid laws ‘as they see fit’ over Christmas

Police do not currently have the power to enter people’s homes involuntarily in order to check compliance with coronavirus laws, even in “very high” areas under the tightest restrictions.

"Police do not currently have the power to enter people's homes." That is an odd way to phrase it.

Mr Hewitt said there would be an increase in enforcement activity after police leaders received extra funding from the Home Office.

He promised a “shift towards quicker enforcement against those knowingly breaking the rules”, adding: “Where people don’t listen to police officers’ encouragement then we will take action. That is our job and I believe the public expect us to do that.”

I wonder what's next.

I hope they trace all the dunderheads off social media/hf oil etc, bust down their doors and drag them off to the concentration camps and keep them there so the rest of us can enjoy lower covid cases being out there.

 

[SupremeTeam16]

I said dunderheads for a laugh. How about I be more technical and state that Edmonton has more people with pronounced lifestyle issues per capita than any other city in Canada. I mean we're only ever even rivalled in that by Winnipeg. If you want to really go there I can provide several indicators of this.

In anycase you're still just voicing a theory, albeit I appreciate your explanation, and it laid out in what appear to be sensible argument, but its still not proof at all for what you are stating. Keeping in mind you stated your post as if AHS is hiding something, or are being intentionally misleading. That kind of position puts burden of proof on your end. just saying

It wouldn’t be the first time a government agency has mislead people either purposely or ignorantly. I don’t think they are purposely lying I think they aren’t pushing for increased testing of younger people, because they know it could reveal that it is in fact driving spikes but has been masked by the fact many children are asymptomatic. That could force them to shut down schools which would lead to other issues so instead they’re praying they can just get people to dial back in other areas and hope the numbers drop enough they can use that as an excuse.


I’ve been travelling, going to restaurants, going to small gatherings and events, playing hockey/baseball and just doing just about everything I do regularly, just with added precautions. I’ve been doing so since June and I’ve run into many people doing the exact same. There hasn’t been this sudden rush of people not giving a F in the last few weeks, people were just as indifferent in July as they are today.

 

[Drivesaitl]

It wouldn’t be the first time a government agency has mislead people either purposely or ignorantly. I don’t think they are purposely lying I think they aren’t pushing for increased testing of younger people, because they know it could reveal that it is in fact driving spikes but has been masked by the fact many children are asymptomatic. That could force them to shut down schools which would lead to other issues so instead they’re praying they can just get people to dial back in other areas and hope the numbers drop enough they can use that as an excuse.


I’ve been travelling, going to restaurants, going to small gatherings and events, playing hockey/baseball and just doing just about everything I do regularly, just with added precautions. I’ve been doing so since June and I’ve run into many people doing the exact same. There hasn’t been this sudden rush of people not giving a F in the last few weeks, people were just as indifferent in July as they are today.

Seasonal aspects apply quite a lot. A lot of the same people having gatherings now were having backyard gatherings outside, in June, July, August where the days are very long, its warm, and when people spend as little time as possible indoors. That changes when the weather cools, days get shorter, and was expected to have that impact. We have flu seasons for a reason, its indoor related, everywhere indoor related, and probably some of that school too. But a lot of the uptick is much more indoor, of all kinds going on now.

I agree it could largely be the same actions. But indoor/outdoor is the major determinant of whether those translate to cases.

ftr I was saying that school should have been going on in spring, summer, and classes conducted outside as much as possible. Nov, Dec, should have been the holiday months.

tbh I expected the school openings in fall to be a bad idea, and they could be, and I'm not saying ftr that you are wrong, just that the data doesn't tend to point that way that this is primarily schools. I agree this isn't the first time we've been lied to as Canadians, but generally Alberta specific govt reactions, information, decisions, its all been better than federal.

 

[bellagiobob]

 

[Drivesaitl]

What a fantastic article. Thanks. This is probably the best rundown I've seen anywhere on this throughout the pandemic. Must read.

 

[MaxR11]

Interesting. Thanks for the post. Would be good if they also did a gym scenario or ice hockey, basketball etc.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Interesting. Thanks for the post. Would be good if they also did a gym scenario or ice hockey, basketball etc.

The article does a run down on activities involving more respiration and how that loads virus in give time periods. Some other keys as mentioned are airflow, air filtration, space, and anything that promotes dissipation. I would say a large hockey rink with no fans in attendence, the actual rink is low risk except for physical contact. Benches as is, not a great idea, players should be seated seperately. Change areass should be outside only..

Gym? My take is the rec centers due to immense sq footage, high ceilings, humidity with indoor pools, they would be much better options than the packed clubfit or Goodlife locations that feature grossly inadequate, air, fresh air, air circulation etc. Those, and spin classes would be the worst.

Always think of the volume of space in which dispersal can occur. The reason people don't catch this as much in bigbox stores is theres a lot of in out, door openings, and the places are huge, and people don't spend much time in one space, or in the store at all.

 

[Ritchie Valens]

Complaining about someone being anecdotal while also using “Edmonton has per capita more “dunderheads?” then anywhere else in Canada” to try and make his point.


20-49 age groups are by far and away the age groups that are most tested, many people in those groups tested quite frequently for work requirements. Children and young adults are some of the least tested age groups, so no duh the groups being tested more often are going to have higher case numbers. The younger age groups also tend to have many more asymptomatic individuals so even though many of them aren’t showing symptoms they are carrying and spreading the virus.


People in Edmonton and the rest of the country were being “dunderheads” in June, July and August and cases were pretty steady for months. Kids and young adults go back to school and 6 weeks later many parts of the country are spiralling into a second wave. Not hard to see what happened and if they tested kids and young adults at the same rate they test 20-50 year olds then I’m sure the data would paint a picture of schools being a virus super highways between households and just as problematic as activities that other groups engage in.

I'm not so sure I fully agree with this. I'm not sure if you have children in school but I have two in elementary. The school my kids go to are very strict on the covid rules. As parents and single parents have returned to their jobs, not many can afford to take two weeks off if their child shows symptoms.

My son had a head cold at the start of October. Our options were: a) do nothing and keep him home in isolation for 14 days and either my wife or I had to take 14 days off to stay home with him (not an option) or b) get the kid tested. If the test came back negative, he was good to go back once symptoms subsided and we had to notify the school he had a test and the result once we learned it. He missed five full days of school, but was exhibiting symptoms for seven. Thankfully when he got sick, it fell on some of my days off and some of my wife's so we didn't miss work.

I can't speak for everyone but this was our specific case and I'm sure there are scores of parents out there doing something similar to us.

We are two full months into the school year and the school they attend have not had any covid cases amongst the staff or students, knock on a whole entire lumber yard of wood.

 

[SupremeTeam16]

Seasonal aspects apply quite a lot. A lot of the same people having gatherings now were having backyard gatherings outside, in June, July, August where the days are very long, its warm, and when people spend as little time as possible indoors. That changes when the weather cools, days get shorter, and was expected to have that impact. We have flu seasons for a reason, its indoor related, everywhere indoor related, and probably some of that school too. But a lot of the uptick is much more indoor, of all kinds going on now.

I agree it could largely be the same actions. But indoor/outdoor is the major determinant of whether those translate to cases.

ftr I was saying that school should have been going on in spring, summer, and classes conducted outside as much as possible. Nov, Dec, should have been the holiday months.

tbh I expected the school openings in fall to be a bad idea, and they could be, and I'm not saying ftr that you are wrong, just that the data doesn't tend to point that way that this is primarily schools. I agree this isn't the first time we've been lied to as Canadians, but generally Alberta specific govt reactions, information, decisions, its all been better than federal.

I definitely agree that weather has an impact but I believe at this point it’s being overstated as a big driving force of spiking cases. Many other areas of the country where the weather hasn’t drastically changed. Even here, sept and October for the most part have been mild but I have no doubt that as winter rolls in, things will get worse.

They need to be pushing for more testing of younger demographics to bring them in line with other age groups and paint a more complete picture because it’s very plausible many school aged are carrying and transferring the virus without showing any signs at all.

 

[MaxR11]

The article does a run down on activities involving more respiration and how that loads virus in give time periods. Some other keys as mentioned are airflow, air filtration, space, and anything that promotes dissipation. I would say a large hockey rink with no fans in attendence, the actual rink is low risk except for physical contact. Benches as is, not a great idea, players should be seated seperately. Change areass should be outside only..

Gym? My take is the rec centers due to immense sq footage, high ceilings, humidity with indoor pools, they would be much better options than the packed clubfit or Goodlife locations that feature grossly inadequate, air, fresh air, air circulation etc. Those, and spin classes would be the worst.

Always think of the volume of space in which dispersal can occur. The reason people don't catch this as much in bigbox stores is theres a lot of in out, door openings, and the places are huge, and people don't spend much time in one space, or in the store at all.

Ya, definitely a decent breakdown on the few important factors (space, duration, ventilation and various ways of generating aerosols/droplets). It would be interesting to find out how heavy breathing from hockey, high intensity training compares with talking and loud talking/yelling. It wouldn't surprise me if the vibrational aspects of generating sounds from talking/yelling aids in "dislodging" more of the virus from the oral pathways and makes it easier to be dispelled out into the open air.

I don't have much worries from catching it via grocery shopping and large box stores because of the ventilation, space and masking. Even if you run into someone with the virus, passing by them for a few secs or min shouldn't be much danger. Not many people are chatting up a storm in public places either. The riskier places come in the form of smaller coffee shops and restaurants. People chatting and likely with no masks on.

 

[Stoneman89]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/public-health-annual-report-opioid-deaths-skyrocket-1.5780129

Well, that should buoy everyone's spirits!

 

[Stoneman89]

I think there would be hope if we had an end date. To me, the uncertainty of when this will end is greater than the issue itself. Will it be 6 months? 1 year? 2 years? 4 years? No one can give a definitive or certain answer. With something like a war, you see indicators of an end coming, such as during WW2 with the invasion of Normandy, the fall of Africa, and finally, troops entering Berlin. The madness that is this virus, is that there is none of that. Yes, we surely know more about it, but that doesn't mean we are near an end of it.

 

[GretzkytoKurri9917]

Many Canadians feel they won't financially recover from COVID-19 pandemic

 

[Drivesaitl]

Many Canadians feel they won't financially recover from COVID-19 pandemic

Convenient misleading title of the article. It could just as easily read; Majority of poll respondents not financially impacted by pandemic, feel they will recover, etc.

A MINIMUM of respondents felt that they will never recover.

But heres a kicker, and this is my analytical side seeing this, but OVER 1/3 of respondents feel they will never financially recover and yet only 30% of people saw a decrease in income during this time.

I dunno, thats a bit odd, and really its just people buying into panic, but this time about finances, and if I'm being honest the ones that are most feeling cash strapped through this could probably institute some austerity measures in their lives and should have been doing that before the pandemic. I mean its ironic in the article is that the next question is "how much does this impact your holiday vacation plans and spending on Xmas.

We live in a nation where people earn and spend more per capita than almost anywhere on Earth. The people that want to, will be fiscally fine. The people that will continue to blow money like always won't be.

My own imprssion, throughout, is that some people will be more pragmatic, more sensible, more responsible coming out of this. Uncertainty sometimes does that. Learning from this is key.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I'm not so sure I fully agree with this. I'm not sure if you have children in school but I have two in elementary. The school my kids go to are very strict on the covid rules. As parents and single parents have returned to their jobs, not many can afford to take two weeks off if their child shows symptoms.

My son had a head cold at the start of October. Our options were: a) do nothing and keep him home in isolation for 14 days and either my wife or I had to take 14 days off to stay home with him (not an option) or b) get the kid tested. If the test came back negative, he was good to go back once symptoms subsided and we had to notify the school he had a test and the result once we learned it. He missed five full days of school, but was exhibiting symptoms for seven. Thankfully when he got sick, it fell on some of my days off and some of my wife's so we didn't miss work.

I can't speak for everyone but this was our specific case and I'm sure there are scores of parents out there doing something similar to us.

We are two full months into the school year and the school they attend have not had any covid cases amongst the staff or students, knock on a whole entire lumber yard of wood.

yep. The school environment is monitored, led, has protocols in place, has system developed to handle this, and is much better than people that are at mass gatherings, that are not inclined to follow any direction, not wear masks, and eat and share food and drink together. One activity is much higher risk. The study cited earlier this evening also indicates this.

Good to here btw how well it is going in the school your kids are going to and how much they have things running optimally.