OT: Coronavirus XVII: Second Wave? More Like a Tsunami

[doulos]

When it boils down to it, they're just doing their job just as they were before the pandemic. They have the option of quitting in which case, I'm sure there would be a hoard of unemployed folks lined up to get much needed paychecks.
Also, I don't see a cashier as some kind of live saving job where they are extending themselves in the trenches dealing with sickness every day and literally putting their life on the line like some other front line workers are.

I'm sure it's uncomfortable for them and I get that there's a risk factor but quibbling about money at a time like this (especially if they are as well paid as some of the posters here say they are) just seems wrong to me. If they were working in some kind of sweatshop then sure but they seem far better off than that.

Oh and those buggers should be thankful for a job

With CERB in place, I'm not sure there would be a stampede to replace them. But perhaps we are going to find out!

 

[shoop]

Also, I don't see a cashier as some kind of live saving job where they are extending themselves in the trenches dealing with sickness every day and literally putting their life on the line like some other front line workers are.

Oh and those buggers should be thankful for a job

You would certainly think so. I love seeing people referring to themselves as essential workers.

Like all people grocery store workers need to be treated with respect. However, those who equate the extra $2 an hour with respect don't understand the concept.

 

[oobga]

I think the city probably sees all the hysteria down south about how wearing a mask is literally tyranny and stomping on rights, so they are hoping people here are just smart and wear them. All as long as the cases stay low like they are now.

Probably a big part of it. Just saw a story on CTV about masks. They show Hinshaw saying the province will defer to municipalities on direction for mask requirements. Then they show Iveson saying he's waiting for the province to give direction This kind of tiptoeing around something that would obviously help usually is born of fear of the backlash that could come from a decision being made.

 

[doulos]

You would certainly think so. I love seeing people referring to themselves as essential workers.

Like all people grocery store workers need to be treated with respect. However, those who equate the extra $2 an hour with respect don't understand the concept.

It sounds like it's about risk assessment, not respect. Like anyone who works a riskier job. Say ... in the oil and gas induustry. I suppose where the disagreement lies in whether those jobs are less risky than they were when they initially received that pay. It's an interesting discussion. I do concede that if it can be shown that the risk level is less now, then there is no need to have increased pay.

 

[shoop]

It sounds like it's about risk assessment, not respect. Like anyone who works a riskier job. Say ... in the oil and gas induustry.

That's a tenuous connection.

Part of the reason jobs like construction and sanitation worker pay relatively well is there are actual recorded risks.

There is a theoretical risk to many essential workers that weren't really considered essential a year ago in the retail sector because they deal with the public.

If this is a long-term trend then wages will correct for grocery store workers. Once there is a vaccine for covid the theoretical risk to grocery store employees goes away.

 

[oobga]

This however ignoring that the covid facility, and even the covid ICU facility, should be a different facility or wing, entirely, than that used to treat regular patients so I can't really see legitimately how one is displacing the other in actual physical bed terms. Covid-19 as mentioned doesn't really require a lot of Dr. Intervention, its a lot of nursing intervention. Even at that its a lot of monitoring.

As people have suggested even here the health authority ought to have triaged this all from the start. Make one hospital in the region the Covid hospital. Confine all of that there, in one facility. This allowing all other hospitals to maintain elective surgery and service those waitlists. This is what COULD have been happening here the last 3 mths instead of hospitals sitting empty, staff getting paid.

I had surgery scheduled in March. It was cancelled. Its July and I'm not even on the list yet for rescheduling. The logjam was 3mths delay in electives getting performed. But the bureaucracy of AHS will somehow make that into 6mths to a year. I'd be surprised if I get the surgery at any point this year. I had already been waiting since September 2019 when surgery was recommended. Mine is a typical experience. If they publicized actual numbers it seems not unusual at all for people to wait 1-2yrs for elective, deemed non critical surgery. But those including such things as hip replacements, knee replacements etc. (not what I'm going in for)

Banning elective surgeries is a bad idea, for the reasons stated. Theres a whole other cost to doing that. Maybe they should ban medical services to idiots that get Covid-19 at Covid parties. (being flippant with that, yeah I know, they won't disclose)

Sorry to hear you are caught up in the delays around surgeries. I think it's pretty conclusive now that we overdid it here in reserving hospital beds and facilities. The bar for what surgeries were necessary and would be allowed to proceed was set far too high. I really hope some lessons were learned from that if we deal with a pandemic like this again. Lots of people were badly screwed over by it, and I imagine many of them are feeling a great amount of betrayal from the healthcare system.

For the Texas thing though, it may have been a little more dishonest than just trying to ensure safety and making sure people were getting necessary surgeries for their health. Some shady things were happening with the ICU reporting where hospitals were claiming 100% capacity when they were not actually close to it. Clearly it only takes some investigation and executive orders to counter that kind of activity in the USA, so not too big of a deal in the end. But, it's certainly a different dynamic than what can occur up in Canada with a publicly funded healthcare system. Gotta be on your toes a little more governing in the USA when it comes to the healthcare systems That was the main point I was trying to highlight with the story.

 

[doulos]

That's a tenuous connection.

Part of the reason jobs like construction and sanitation worker pay relatively well is there are actual recorded risks.

There is a theoretical risk to many essential workers that weren't really considered essential a year ago in the retail sector because they deal with the public.

If this is a long-term trend then wages will correct for grocery store workers. Once there is a vaccine for covid the theoretical risk to grocery store employees goes away.

The establishment of whether the risk is real or only perceived is certainly what is the key point. Agreed.

 

[Stoneman89]

Would you still feel overpaid during a pandemic?

The last thing I would be thinking about. No, I would be just glad I still had a job when so many around me didn't.

 

[Drivesaitl]

If they are vastly underpaid (although that's subjective I suppose) or if their working conditions are so horrendous that it's too dangerous to work (I've never been to a Safeway so maybe somebody else can assess this better) then I can understand it to an extent but in general, it just seems like really bad timing and distasteful quite frankly to think about going on strike during a time when so many are losing jobs so yes, they should be happy to have a job at this point. I'm sure many unemployed would switch positions with them in the blink of an eye. A little perspective perhaps?

Also, lets be honest, while I'm sure their jobs are difficult during these times there are other "front line" workers that are going through much more harrowing experiences during these times.

In any event, just my opinion. I respect it if you feel differently.

Of course. It should go without saying.

Which everybody except one poster is stating.

Most familiar with Safeway knows they have some of the most self indulgent staff seen in any grocery store. Imagine any grocery store and what its like. Now imagine a grocery store swallowed whole by decades of union strong handing rhetoric and all think they're somehow more special star bellied sneetches then anybody. There you have a Safeway and maybe even describes people supporting them. Which few ever do.

I've had convos with several Safeway staff through the years, known a few, and Stoneman depicted it perfectly. Its largely a long brainwashed shop where the employees doing the same mindless things figure they're someow worth twice as much as anybody anywhere else. You start to see the bs as pure union posturing. It goes to the extent of these people stating that they are defending people everywhere, defending the good job, the middle class way of life. They defend themselves, and that's it. The union reps work for themselves, and that's also it.

Safeway Unions is a picture perfect illustration of it. Through Union Involvement they've seen a peak of hundred or more stores in Edmonton area become 12, that were even abandoned, sold, by the Safeway org. That's the kind of pyrrhic victory I've been mentioning. Union backers defending your contract vehemently, while losing your job. I would laugh but...

 

[harpoon]

If it was 'pretty much the entire medical community' it should be pretty easy for you to provide some sort of support for this claim.

Never mind. The ‘entire medical community’ has been wrong footed by covid pretty much since day 1. Starting with the ‘masks don’t help anyone’ mantra that they were chanting for the first three months of the pandemic. Posters who think there are a bunch of firm medical conclusions established regarding mutations, treatments and future trends are simply mistaken. It’s too bad, but it is what it is.

 

[AM]

The establishment of whether the risk is real or only perceived is certainly what is the key point. Agreed.

There is another key point. The availability of the CERB.

 

[doulos]

No, I would be just glad I still had a job.

Maybe. Might feel different in the moment.

 

[Drivesaitl]

No, I would be just glad I still had a job.

Of course you have the background as well, first person, and thanks for stating it. Matches perfectly my understanding as well of the Safeway union backed rhetoric. Which only really resulted in killing Safeway as an enterprise. Thats part of the irony and lol in all of this. If one had to predict one grocer that had employees going on strike during a pandemic, it would be Safeway. That would be the punchline. So predictable. Safeway, not serving you.

The funny thing is growing up i kind of thought of Safeway the same way that I thought of ALCB stores. With the thought that somebody should privitize these entities immediately to reduce the hogwash overhead. So that Safeway already being private, it was more a case of monopoly on market than anything. Any town, village was thankful to get other compeition in for hope that prices might go down from the rigged Safeway monopoly.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Cases in Canada seem relatively under control. All the random jumps seem to be from restaurants or friendly gatherings. Whatever grocery stores are doing are protecting their employees. If cases start going up up up again than absolutely reinstate it.

At the end of the day they are working in a grocery store doing a relatively stress free job, protected by plexiglass and PPE, lots of places are getting people to bag their own groceries too, and they have been able to keep their job, often getting more hours and hazard pay for a few months.

Also strikes are there to get people on your side to pressure companies into giving in. You think that anyone's going to back Safeway employees for striking when most people are still stressed to know where their next paycheque is coming from?

Another important point.

Which is exactly what i meant when I said the strike move, and threats are color blind. Thats what the term means in that context. That in this case the demands are color blind from the perceptions that the marketplace would have. The marketplace already having voted AWAY from safeway decades ago. For sure you'll get the odd union coming out in support but not joe public shopping elsewhere. They'll wave goodbye.

 

[harpoon]

Thanks for the detailed update. With approximately 99% of people wearing masks, is this an enforceable law or is it people just doing so out of good will to protect themselves and everyone they come in contact with?

Sadly I must report that Tokyo saw 107 new cases yesterday after I sent my earlier reply. We await tracing, but it does seem like some people are behaving in a foolhardy manner attending clubs, mini concerts and over imbibing. Still, with around 1000 active cases nationwide, Japan is doing OK.

Mask wearing is not the law. There are no fines or penalties for not wearing, and you do see the odd person without one (most frequently not a Japanese person). Many places have signs on the door saying ‘please wear a mask’ and the ‘herd mentality’ is very strong in Japan, so the overwhelming majority comply of their own volition.

Thank you for you good wishes. Same to you and yours, and I sure hope there are better days ahead soon for all of us!

 

[CycloneSweep]

Sadly I must report that Tokyo saw 107 new cases yesterday after I sent my earlier reply. We await tracing, but it does seem like some people are behaving in a foolhardy manner attending clubs, mini concerts and over imbibing. Still, with around 1000 active cases nationwide, Japan is doing OK.

Mask wearing is not the law. There are no fines or penalties for not wearing, and you do see the odd person without one (most frequently not a Japanese person). Many places have signs on the door saying ‘please wear a mask’ and the ‘herd mentality’ is very strong in Japan, so the overwhelming majority comply of their own volition.

Thank you for you good wishes. Same to you and yours, and I sure hope there are better days ahead soon for all of us!

Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt Japan like China where wearing a mask when sick already kind of normal.

I know in China when someone's sick, they wear a mask to prevent others from getting sick. Is Japan like that too or are people just banding together during covid?

 

[Drivesaitl]

It's not just me. When people throw out lines like "the entire medical community" without support they aren't persuading anyone. People who share your priors will nod their heads. In the midst of the pandemic I question all sweeping statements of this nature.

Its so common place now, and of course lazy journalism. Almost every day perusing a rag like the Edmonton Journal (for laughs more than anything on what its become) theres article, not commentaries or editorials citing or even making such comments as "all experts say" or ''all the literature says"

Any blanket statements like that raise immediate suspicion. I could say even in Science, or especially in Science, the literature is rarely saying the same thing, fairly as a rule.

But the exercise today is paint by number facts citing the stream of experts that support whatever Cognitive dissonance dissociation. pun intended.

 

[Cloned]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt Japan like China where wearing a mask when sick already kind of normal.

I know in China when someone's sick, they wear a mask to prevent others from getting sick. Is Japan like that too or are people just banding together during covid?

People wear masks even when they’re not sick in South Asia, and that was before any pandemic this year.

 

[shoop]

Its so common place now, and of course lazy journalism. Almost every day perusing a rag like the Edmonton Journal (for laughs more than anything on what its become) theres article, not commentaries or editorials citing or even making such comments as "all experts say" or ''all the literature says"

I think part of it is the whole 'believe science' mantra. If people understand the science and trust the sources then that is a good attitude.

However, it is too often people finding something that confirms their beliefs and then using the a weak sauce argument that 'the entire medical community' is laughable given how much conflicting evidence and changing advice we have seen with the virus.

 

[shoop]

People wear masks even when they’re not sick in South Asia, and that was before any pandemic this year.

I think you mean Northeast Asia ... China/Japan/South Korea.

South Asia is basically the old British India (India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka) and there is no history of wearing masks in that part of the world.

 

[harpoon]

afeway falsely glorified what were essentially punter jobs with unsustainable pay and benefits. But they want more..

Wonder what happens to those folks under the glorious socialist system?

I’ll throw my two cents in on the great grocery store debate. Granted I don’t live in Alberta and it may be that I’m overawed by the wide aisles and the embarrassment of choices, but I like the Safeway’s in the Sherwood Park Mall. It was redone within the last couple of years, and man is that a nice place to shop. Whenever I go there I spend about an hour wandering around just looking at all the choices. Freshness of produce and deli items puts the Superstore to shame imo. Walmart is just a complete dump by comparison. Always had superior service from the cashiers as well. Very friendly and personable. Definitely rate that particular store and will continue to patronize if the corona ever allows me to return to Canada.

Hate Target. Frequented the Target near the UCLA campus at the edge of Beverly Hills due to convenience of location. What a complete shithole of a shopping experience. Would honestly prefer Zellers.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I think part of it is the whole 'believe science' mantra. If people understand the science and trust the sources then that is a good attitude.

However, it is too often people finding something that confirms their beliefs and then using the a weak sauce argument that 'the entire medical community' is laughable given how much conflicting evidence and changing advice we have seen with the virus.

Theres some related problems in what some subsets of Science have become, or what some consider to be Science. Modeling for instance. I state that because modeling doesn't have to meet any kind of standardized tests, confidence levels, lab work, background. Its strictly theoretical running some numbers domain. In that way not much different, and just as nebulous as hockey advance stats punter selling truth moonshine on hockey.

modeling has its place. But scrutiny should accompany it. The models have been out of their minds wrong on fatalities especially through all this.

 

[Cloned]

I think you mean Northeast Asia ... China/Japan/South Korea.

South Asia is basically the old British India (India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka) and there is no history of wearing masks in that part of the world.

Yes, my bad.

 

[Drivesaitl]

People wear masks even when they’re not sick in South Asia, and that was before any pandemic this year.

A function of population and responsible realization of the effects of crowding and the nature of contagion. A bright thing to do generally, but especially if living and working in such population densities.

I'm behind it. Imagine having far less colds, flus, infections, o having far less spread in schools, places of work, etc.

In NA we're just accustomed to these things making the rounds. Commonplace here to just somehow accept that 70% of people in an office got the same cold. The same office that tells anybody to come into work with a cold.. With people generally not even knowing the difference between a cold or more serious infection.

A total reset is in order about how productivity is really maximized in work settings and if that even takes place in a work setting. For instance we're learning now how many jobs can be done at home. That was knowledge for the longest time. But now made more acceptable.

 

[Cloned]

A function of population and responsible realization of the effects of crowding and the nature of contagion. A bright thing to do generally, but especially if living and working in such population densities.

I'm behind it. Imagine having far less colds, flus, infections, o having far less spread in schools, places of work, etc.

In NA we're just accustomed to these things making the rounds. Commonplace here to just somehow accept that 70% of people in an office got the same cold. The same office that tells anybody to come into work with a cold.. With people generally not even knowing the difference between a cold or more serious infection.

A total reset is in order about how productivity is really maximized in work settings and if that even takes place in a work setting. For instance we're learning now how many jobs can be done at home. That was knowledge for the longest time. But now made more acceptable.

It’s moreso a few things:

1. Pollution/air quality.

2. Residual fear of SARS and other Asian flu viruses that swept through the area over the last two decades.

I don’t think people are any more cognizant of the greater good than they are here. It’s simply a matter of self preservation, as it usually is everywhere else in the world.