OT: Coronavirus Thread (MOD Warning Post #19)

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SpinningEdge

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Did you read the entire paper you linked? The problems with it are numerous.

First of all, its not a study, its a summary report of other studies, hand selected from thousands (18,590) down to 24 for inclusion on their summary findings. It cherry picks by hand which studies to include/exclude, trying to pretend its purely scientific but their own bias creeps in all over. "We exclude studies that use cases, hospitalizations, or other measures." Cases and hospitalizations tie directly into mortality, so excluding them makes the impact of this report more dramatic in making the authors case. It also ignores that a large part of the "lockdown" approach was to "flatten the curve" so that hospitals don't get overrun, and the report ignores that important goal as well.

Second, the point of the report is to show that lockdowns had no real impact on mortality, but there are several problems with that assumption. The first is that any "lockdown" according to the report assumes 100% adherence to the spirit of the lockdown, but our own eyes tell us this never really happened. On day one, a sizable chunk of the population fought against and ignored any mandates, from masking, to restaurant closures, school closings, etc. The Fed never really locked down much of anything, except a very brief restriction on some international travel, which had no real impact for obvious reasons - it was too late, it was brief, it was not thorough. States and counties locked down some aspects, from schools, to restuarants/hair salons, large gatherings, mask mandates, etc, but again it was not consistent, it was far too late to stop all the spread, and even where there were mandates, far too many citizens refused to comply for various reasons, meaning the lockdowns weren't really lockdowns at all. There was no marshall law imposed.

The second problem is it purposely excludes pharmaceutical interventions and their impact on mortality. One specifically, Remdesivir/Veklury, had a large impact on reducing the mortality rate in severe, hospitalized patients. It wasn't available at the start of the pandemic but since summer 2020, it has reduced mortality vs no treatment considerably, but it's use intentionally ignored as part of this cherry picked set of data.

Bottom line is there are always ways to massage any data to show an outcome you want. This isn't a study with a control group, its a collection of data from other reports, hand picked to make a point. I could easily hand pick other data from other studies to make the opposite point, but let's use simple logic instead.

Let's imagine there are 10,000 random people gathered closely in a crowd, and you drop 4 covid positive contagious people into the mix. What would be the covid positive rate after 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, etc. Assuming no one had any treatment and no one isolated, the crowd stays together as a crowd and mingles freely as if nothing was happening. You would expect it would climb, and eventually almost the entire 10,000 would catch covid. Some portion of them would die from it, again excluding the impact of treatment which this report clearly does.

Now imagine 10,000 people who are entirely locked down in their house. They work from home, they have food delivered safely, they never join any crowds, they are truly quarantined. Now you drop 4 random covid cases into 4 random houses. What's the spread rate after 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, etc. And what is the associated mortality rate?

The point is, lockdowns clearly, undeniably, conclusively work, to stop the spread and associated mortality, but lockdowns never really happened at all. There were some half assed restrictions, most of them were either ignored or had too many exemptions to be meaningful. Also there is no question that real lockdowns hurt the economy, which is why the Govt dumped several trillion dollars of borrowed money to reduce the impact. But that was never the question we should have been asking.

The question to ask is, how many avoidable deaths are acceptable to avoid hurting the economy? What number would you personally feel comfortable saying "thats OK, keep the economy flowing" vs what number would you say "that's too many dead people, maybe we should shut things down". Because that's the only question that really needs an answer. But saying the number out loud may not seem as easy as saying "lockdowns don't work".
The point is places with lockdowns and mandates aren’t stopping anything. That’s the point.

if New York or Cali had less deaths than wide open states you could make an argument.

You can’t. The numbers prove that.

people are more free in other places than NY and Cali with less or similar death rates. Those are facts.

so that’s not the argument. When you see unemployment is higher in blue states, drug overdoses are higher, inflation is higher, alcohol abuse is higher, violent crime is higher, etc - a lot being directly bc of Covid - then you see lockdowns and mandated areas having zero significan difference - yes - you do factor in those things.

we are talking about 99.9%+ of the population under 60 being fine from this virus. You don’t punish or make 999 out of 1000 people comply for one person. Instead, the one person who most likely is unfortunately sick or in bad shape already should be the one to make smart decisions for their own health. Not be selfish to the other 99+%.

Lucky for everyone you can still mask and stay away from gatherings in you want - and there’s three shots with a fourth on the way. They can protect themselves if they want.
 

kicksavedave

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if New York or Cali had less deaths than wide open states you could make an argument.

You can’t. The numbers prove that.

There's a reason I've avoided this thread for so long. The numbers prove exactly the opposite of what you said.

United States COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

Deaths per 1M population in CA =2057
Deaths per 1M population in FL =3073

CA has ~39M people and ~81K deaths.
FL has ~21M people and ~66K deaths.

You're more likely to die of covid in FL than in CA.
 
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SpinningEdge

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BTW, vaccination IS a personal choice, and everyone, has the right to refuse to be vaccinated.

Working at your preferred choice of company however, is NOT a personal right, so if a company decides it wants to require vaccinations as a condition of employment, the SCOTUS has ruled many times that the company is allowed to do that. So, ultimately, people are free to make their own decisions, and people are doing that. But making our own decisions has never been free from consequences and people are experiencing those consequences in real time.

The govt cannot force you to get vaccinated, but it can restrict your access to some aspects of public life in some rare instances. Just like it restricts your freedom to drive uninsured without a license, smoke cigarettes on an airplane, or to spray flame throwers in crowded areas.

correct - but Biden did try to make it mandatory for even private employers to force vaccines on people with 100 employees - which rightfully so was denied by scotus.

That was the issue. Government tried to overstep their power.
 

SpinningEdge

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There's a reason I've avoided this thread for so long. The numbers prove exactly the opposite of what you said.

United States COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

Deaths per 1M population in CA =2057
Deaths per 1M population in FL =3073

CA has ~39M people and ~81K deaths.
FL has ~21M people and ~66K deaths.

You're more likely to die of covid in FL than in CA.
Now do it since Florida opened and vaccines been available - and do it for New York too.
Again - not hardly any difference. At all. Besides one state having zero mandates and one enforcing them strictly/were locked down way stricter.

also, look at average age. That’s important too.

Why does NY have almost 2x the amount of Covid deaths since Jan 1st than Florida if similar population?

reason: because it makes zero difference. People are over it. Whether the small minority who are scared/want more forced vaccines/mandates/etc like it or not.
 

g00n

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Now do it since Florida opened and vaccines been available - and do it for New York too.
Again - not hardly any difference. At all. Besides one state having zero mandates and one enforcing them strictly/were locked down way stricter.

also, look at average age. That’s important too.

Why does NY have almost 2x the amount of Covid deaths since Jan 1st than Florida if similar population?

reason: because it makes zero difference. People are over it. Whether the small minority who are scared/want more forced vaccines/mandates/etc like it or not.

Why aren't you processing anything said to you? Comparisons of FL and NY show VERY CLEAR relationships between state policy stringency (purple line) and case rates. Specific mitigation measures HAVE been implemented in FL at times in order to curb increasing outbreaks due to decreasing stringency. And in NY the two plots follow a clearly parallel pattern.

COVID Data Tracker

upload_2022-2-5_12-53-19.png
upload_2022-2-5_12-53-38.png



I have to conclude you don't know how to read graphs or data, and you don't understand per capita or lagging statistics, or 7 day averages, or just about anything else on this topic including community spread among the unvaccinated and its contribution to decreasing vaccine effectiveness through variants and failure to reduce transmission.
 
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kicksavedave

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correct - but Biden did try to make it mandatory for even private employers to force vaccines on people with 100 employees - which rightfully so was denied by scotus.

That was the issue. Government tried to overstep their power.

Not entirely accurate. The mandate for private companies was to be vaccinated OR test weekly and wear a mask, employees choice. OSHA has a long history, its sole purpose, of making regulations to protect employees safety in the workplace. Masking and testing are just examples of this. Vaccinated employees would not have to mask/test. Again, not a mandate, a choice.
 
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g00n

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Now do it since Florida opened and vaccines been available - and do it for New York too.
Again - not hardly any difference. At all. Besides one state having zero mandates and one enforcing them strictly/were locked down way stricter.

also, look at average age. That’s important too.

Why does NY have almost 2x the amount of Covid deaths since Jan 1st than Florida if similar population?

reason: because it makes zero difference. People are over it. Whether the small minority who are scared/want more forced vaccines/mandates/etc like it or not.

Also with NY and FL you keep repeating these fallacies. For one there is still the population density factor. Additionally the pandemic spreads at different rates in different areas. The coastal ports of entry got Omicron earlier than other places, and deaths lag behind case counts.

And again the reporting in Florida is f***ed up. They will dump once or twice a week and that skews recent data, especially if there's a HUGE dump at the end of the month as we see now:

Florida coronavirus cases and deaths
upload_2022-2-5_13-14-57.png


Look at that spike on the last day of the month. Those blank spots are not days with zero deaths. They're gaps in the data reporting.

Who knows exactly what's happening in FL if they're making massive dumps like that. The trend is still UPWARD for deaths, and hard to even tell for cases due to the data inconsistency.

FL are still experiencing 15K+ new cases per day while NY are below 10K.

New York coronavirus cases and deaths

upload_2022-2-5_13-19-38.png


Note the more even distribution of reporting from NY (apparently weekday updating). And both cases and deaths are trending DOWNWARD in NY.

Given this information I would expect NY to continue to slowly and steadily decline, while FL will waver depending on how much data they process. We could see more large batches of deaths and cases in the next few days/weeks and we have no way of knowing when they'll drop.
 
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SpinningEdge

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Also with NY and FL you keep repeating these fallacies. For one there is still the population density factor. Additionally the pandemic spreads at different rates in different areas. The coastal ports of entry got Omicron earlier than other places, and deaths lag behind case counts.

And again the reporting in Florida is f***ed up. They will dump once or twice a week and that skews recent data, especially if there's a HUGE dump at the end of the month as we see now:

Florida coronavirus cases and deaths
View attachment 505069

Look at that spike on the last day of the month. Those blank spots are not days with zero deaths. They're gaps in the data reporting.

Who knows exactly what's happening in FL if they're making massive dumps like that. The trend is still UPWARD for deaths, and hard to even tell for cases due to the data inconsistency.

FL are still experiencing 15K+ new cases per day while NY are below 10K.

New York coronavirus cases and deaths

View attachment 505070

Note the more even distribution of reporting from NY (apparently weekday updating). And both cases and deaths are trending DOWNWARD in NY.

Given this information I would expect NY to continue to slowly and steadily decline, while FL will waver depending on how much data they process. We could see more large batches of deaths and cases in the next few days/weeks and we have no way of knowing when they'll drop.
Wrong
New York has mandated and are strict.

Florida is wide open wish no restrictions any more.

so your point isn’t right. At all.

pick and choose small samples all you want while disregarding other samples and studies. The overall big picture shows lockdowns and mandates do nothing. At all.

argue all you want. Science is science.

I also assume you haven’t been to Miami lately and compared that to NYC. Florida has very populated areas/nightlife/crowds/etc are much more.

still no difference.
 

g00n

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Wrong
New York has mandated and are strict.

Florida is wide open wish no restrictions any more.

so your point isn’t right. At all.

pick and choose small samples all you want while disregarding other samples and studies. The overall big picture shows lockdowns and mandates do nothing. At all.

argue all you want. Science is science.

I also assume you haven’t been to Miami lately and compared that to NYC. Florida has very populated areas/nightlife/crowds/etc are much more.

still no difference.

What are you going on about?

Miami has a population of 450K
NYC alone has a population of 8.4 MILLION

Yet Dade County FL still has over 2K cases per day while NYC is at 3K and falling. So NYC has 50% more cases but almost 20 times the population! Looks like their proof-of-vaccination policies are working!


What about statewide? I don't believe there are vaccine mandates for occupancy outside of NYC, only limited mask mandates which we know are impossible to enforce. Yet they're still better than FL:

Coronavirus in the U.S.: Latest Map and Case Count

For the entire state of FL vs NY the 7 day per 100K case data:

FL: 88
NY: 45

Deaths 7 day per 100K:

FL: .88
NY: .77

And AGAIN this is statewide data which includes varying levels of vaccination and boosting, and by far most of the deaths are among the UNVACCINATED.

upload_2022-2-5_14-5-28.png


What do you notice about the current hotspots in cases per capita?

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/these-are-the-top-25-covid-hot-spots-in-the-u-s

As predicted weeks ago, they're more inland and southern areas. Omicron moved from ports to other areas.

You are not processing what you're being shown.

You have NO supporting data. At all. Everything you post is bullshit.
 
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SpinningEdge

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What are you going on about?

Miami has a population of 450K
NYC alone has a population of 8.4 MILLION

Yet Dade County FL still has over 2K cases per day while NYC is at 3K and falling. So NYC has 50% more cases but almost 20 times the population! Looks like their proof-of-vaccination policies are working!


What about statewide? I don't believe there are vaccine mandates for occupancy outside of NYC, only limited mask mandates which we know are impossible to enforce. Yet they're still better than FL:

Coronavirus in the U.S.: Latest Map and Case Count

For the entire state of FL vs NY the 7 day per 100K case data:

FL: 88
NY: 45

Deaths 7 day per 100K:

FL: .88
NY: .77

And AGAIN this is statewide data which includes varying levels of vaccination and boosting, and by far most of the deaths are among the UNVACCINATED.

View attachment 505079

What do you notice about the current hotspots in cases per capita?

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/these-are-the-top-25-covid-hot-spots-in-the-u-s

As predicted weeks ago, they're more inland and southern areas. Omicron moved from ports to other areas.

You are not processing what you're being shown.

You have NO supporting data. At all. Everything you post is bullshit.
You're taking 7 days. Take since Jan 1st and tell me the NY VS FL data.

Again, even if you say just the last 7 days - still doesn't differentiate that it's basically zero difference between wide open states and mandated areas.

... besides economy, happiness, people wanting to be there, jobs, etc are better in Florida.

So obviously FL is handling covid better than NY and it's not even close.

Again, doesn't matter though. Covid is what people have decided to live with and that's the way it's going to be. There won't be lockdowns, fed Govt mandates for private sectors, etc tried any more. Freedom is winning again. Thank god.
 

twabby

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We've been over this. You don't have a workable plan and you're just complaining.

The workable plan is do what China is doing, or better. It's workable because they are doing it to great success. It's a real thing that's currently happening, despite the whining from China's economic rivals that zero-COVID is going to fail any day now.

And their citizens seem to agree that their response has been successful, as pretty much every opinion poll from every non-Chinese source has confirmed that Chinese citizens wildly approve of the response and now have even more trust in their government than before the pandemic.
 
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g00n

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You're taking 7 days. Take since Jan 1st and tell me the NY VS FL data.

Again, even if you say just the last 7 days - still doesn't differentiate that it's basically zero difference between wide open states and mandated areas.

... besides economy, happiness, people wanting to be there, jobs, etc are better in Florida.

So obviously FL is handling covid better than NY and it's not even close.

Again, doesn't matter though. Covid is what people have decided to live with and that's the way it's going to be. There won't be lockdowns, fed Govt mandates for private sectors, etc tried any more. Freedom is winning again. Thank god.

/facepalm

You really don't understand the 7 DAY MOVING AVERAGE. It's not just 7 days. It's indicative of reporting trends. NY started earlier and is trending down, FL started later and is trending up.

I don't know how else to say these things. They're not sinking in and you clearly don't want to believe anything you aren't already comfortable with so f*** it.
 

g00n

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The workable plan is do what China is doing, or better. It's workable because they are doing it to great success. It's a real thing that's currently happening, despite the whining from China's economic rivals that zero-COVID is going to fail any day now.

And their citizens seem to agree that their response has been successful, as pretty much every opinion poll from every non-Chinese source has confirmed that Chinese citizens wildly approve of the response and now have even more trust in their government than before the pandemic.

You're naive if you believe what China says.

Don't tell me about our own transparency, we have a much more visible and comprehensive system and media available for review and scrutiny as well as internal interest.

China is well-known for disinformation and suppression of data/information.

Aside from that, are you ready to admit that I was right about the way the data would play out?
 

twabby

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You're naive if you believe what China says.

Don't tell me about our own transparency, we have a much more visible and comprehensive system and media available for review and scrutiny as well as internal interest.

China is well-known for disinformation and suppression of data/information.

Aside from that, are you ready to admit that I was right about the way the data would play out?

I don't think China is any more or less honest with their figures than we are. Indeed, if they were somehow hiding millions of deaths or whatever, wouldn't China's rivals have found this out by now and exposed it on the worldwide stage?

Instead the best we can do is to get hitpieces from corporate aligned media outlets suggesting that China's policies are destined to fail, despite no actual evidence to support this. They are releasing these hitpieces because it is in the West's economic interest to have China fail, not because they actually have evidence they are failing.

Again, your argument is China is lying because they are China. That's it. That's why we can't do what China is doing because they are lying. How do you know they are lying? They're China, they lie. It's what they do.
 

g00n

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I don't think China is any more or less honest with their figures than we are. Indeed, if they were somehow hiding millions of deaths or whatever, wouldn't China's rivals have found this out by now and exposed it on the worldwide stage?

Instead the best we can do is to get hitpieces from corporate aligned media outlets suggesting that China's policies are destined to fail, despite no actual evidence to support this.

Again, your argument is China is lying because they are China. That's it. That's why we can't do what China is doing because they are lying. How do you know they are lying? They're China, they lie. It's what they do.

Wrong.

My position is based on the facts regarding known behavior by China and it's government, and the common sense notion that the largest country in the world has no chance of containing COVID to zero.

Your position is based on assumptions that everyone sucks equally and corporate greed drives everything, and a desire to believe enemies of America and the economic interests you despise.

Is China reducing the spread by authoritarian measures including electronic surveillance of citizenry? Probably. But not to zero. And the cost is huge.

Good luck trying anything like that here when we have dumbass truckers driving around protesting vaccines, and people who think wearing a mask to buy Fruit Loops is "tyranny".
 

twabby

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Aside from that, are you ready to admit that I was right about the way the data would play out?

To this point specifically it has played out exactly as I thought: hospitals being overrun and death rates continuing to climb even now. The current death rate from omicron is slightly less than last winter's peak and has surpassed the Delta peak. I suggested that it was not going to be mild, and like Jeremy Roenick once again I was right in my analysis.
 

SpinningEdge

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Wrong.

My position is based on the facts regarding known behavior by China and it's government, and the common sense notion that the largest country in the world has no chance of containing COVID to zero.

Your position is based on assumptions that everyone sucks equally and corporate greed drives everything, and a desire to believe enemies of America and the economic interests you despise.

Is China reducing the spread by authoritarian measures including electronic surveillance of citizenry? Probably. But not to zero. And the cost is huge.

Good luck trying anything like that here when we have dumbass truckers driving around protesting vaccines, and people who think wearing a mask to buy Fruit Loops is "tyranny".

I mean all you had to say here was if anyone questions Chinas government not handling Covid perfectly they get kidnapped by their own government and may or may not be seen again. LOL.
 

twabby

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Mar 9, 2010
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Wrong.

My position is based on the facts regarding known behavior by China and it's government, and the common sense notion that the largest country in the world has no chance of containing COVID to zero.

Your position is based on assumptions that everyone sucks equally and corporate greed drives everything, and a desire to believe enemies of America and the economic interests you despise.

Is China reducing the spread by authoritarian measures including electronic surveillance of citizenry? Probably. But not to zero. And the cost is huge.

Good luck trying anything like that here when we have dumbass truckers driving around protesting vaccines, and people who think wearing a mask to buy Fruit Loops is "tyranny".

I don't know if you're being willfully ignorant or not, but zero-COVID doesn't literally mean they have completely eradicated COVID, it means that their goal is to eradicate COVID rather than to just live with it as you and others have suggested.

What cost is China incurring to implement their zero-COVID strategy? It seems to me they are doing just fine as a nation, and for those lunatics who care about the economy their economy is also doing well! There's nothing unsustainable about what they are doing, despite your protestations. We should all be doing the same thing.
 

g00n

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To this point specifically it has played out exactly as I thought: hospitals being overrun and death rates continuing to climb even now. The current death rate from omicron is slightly less than last winter's peak and has surpassed the Delta peak. I suggested that it was not going to be mild, and like Jeremy Roenick once again I was right in my analysis.

You predicted a massive surge in deaths and hospitalizations proportionate to the surge in cases, iirc, and that it would be MUCH worse than last year by now.

I don't recall your exact words but you pushed the panic button because you thought the higher omicron cases meant deaths and hospitalizations would continue to rise at a rate parallel to cases. They have not.

They're doing exactly what I said, which was early points of entry would peak mid-Jan close to last year's numbers and then slowly decline through the rest of the winter. I said Omicron would likely be milder, vaccinated people would not suffer severe illness or death nearly as much as unvaccinated, and booster rates would be insufficient to stop the spread but would still offer better protection. I also said the surge would ripple from the ports of entry to the flyover areas, so the effect would just be delayed inland with some of the less vaccinated areas being hit harder, especially after Delta immunity wears off. Which meant as NYC and MD decline places like TX and OK etc would be rising.

And that's exactly what's happening.
 

g00n

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I don't know if you're being willfully ignorant or not, but zero-COVID doesn't literally mean they have completely eradicated COVID, it means that their goal is to eradicate COVID rather than to just live with it as you and others have suggested.

What cost is China incurring to implement their zero-COVID strategy? It seems to me they are doing just fine as a nation, and for those lunatics who care about the economy their economy is also doing well! There's nothing unsustainable about what they are doing, despite your protestations. We should all be doing the same thing.

Then move to China.
 

g00n

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If you think a country of 1.4 BILLION has double digit cases of COVID per day, you're nuts.

That's what I'm talking about.
 

twabby

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You predicted a massive surge in deaths and hospitalizations proportionate to the surge in cases, iirc, and that it would be MUCH worse than last year by now.

I don't recall your exact words but you pushed the panic button because you thought the higher omicron cases meant deaths and hospitalizations would continue to rise at a rate parallel to cases. They have not.

They're doing exactly what I said, which was early points of entry would peak mid-Jan close to last year's numbers and then slowly decline through the rest of the winter. I said Omicron would likely be milder, vaccinated people would not suffer severe illness or death nearly as much as unvaccinated, and booster rates would be insufficient to stop the spread but would still offer better protection. I also said the surge would ripple from the ports of entry to the flyover areas, so the effect would just be delayed inland with some of the less vaccinated areas being hit harder, especially after Delta immunity wears off. Which meant as NYC and MD decline places like TX and OK etc would be rising.

And that's exactly what's happening.

Please quote where I said everything would be much worse than last year.

I don't know how you can look at 3000+ deaths a day (more than a 9/11 a day) and not be utterly panicked/despondent/depressed about the current situation. Hospitalizations and deaths rose proportionately to cases, with a lag-time of about 23 days as I suggested could be the case. You suggested somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 days because that's what happened last year, and I said this was an incorrect assumption mainly because Delta's deaths lagged longer than 10 days (indeed, around 23 days). You, of course, were wrong.
 
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