OT: Coronavirus Thread (MOD Warning Post #19)

[SpinningEdge]

Of course China is a very specific counter-example to this. They are one of the only nations imposing actual lockdowns instead of “lockdowns”, and as a result their death rates are among the lowest in the world and about 1000 times lower than The Land of the Free.

You believe China... that’s on you. China also said they had 0 cases for a year basically - then olympics are happening and all of a sudden Covid is real again.

China literally lies... about everything.

 

[g00n]

Lockdowns have done nothing except hurt society in other ways.

john hopkinf study found lockdowns did absolutely nothing basically

Johns Hopkins Study: Lockdowns Had ‘Little To No Effect On COVID-19 Mortality’ But Had ‘Devastating’ Effects On Society | The Daily Wire

That's an admitted right wing source and the "study" was by 3 political economic professors, not epidemiologists.

 

[g00n]

Even worse, it's misleading trash from the CATO Institute who claimed lockdows are "fascist", is a non-peer reviewed paper based on other non-peer reviewed papers, does not include Delta or Omicron, and considers ONE prevention method to be a "lockdown". So if everyone is only told to distance, and nothing else is done to stop the spread, that's a lockdown according to the study.

Here's What We Know About 'Johns Hopkins Study' on Lockdowns


Once again you're passing along dangerous propaganda. Stop it.

 

[SpinningEdge]

Even worse, it's misleading trash from the CATO Institute who claimed lockdows are "fascist", is a non-peer reviewed paper based on other non-peer reviewed papers, does not include Delta or Omicron, and considers ONE prevention method to be a "lockdown". So if everyone is only told to distance, and nothing else is done to stop the spread, that's a lockdown according to the study.

Here's What We Know About 'Johns Hopkins Study' on Lockdowns


Once again you're passing along dangerous propaganda. Stop it.

Wrong. You’re wrong again.

It’s posted everywhere. Not just a right wing site.

but funny you’ll post NY Times stuff like that’s not far left.

so yeah - it’s real news and is posted literally everywhere. Even Psaki played defense to it.

the study was from john Hopkins - and many others show same stats.

lockdowns don’t work. It’s factual. Reason why tons of countries are opening up with zero restrictions and Psaki is throwing Fauci under the bus. They know they were wrong and it does nothing.

... just like how few people are getting boosters. They see with their own eyes and see real facts - and that’s why under 30% are getting a booster.

 

[SpinningEdge]

Florida continues to have fewer deaths from Covid than New York and California while being fully wide open & NY/Cali have strict vaccine mandates.

Mandates and lockdowns proving to not work more and more. Makes no difference.

Since Jan 1st
New York 5,900+ Covid deaths
California 3,950+ Covid deaths

Florida Coronavirus Deaths Per Day

New York Coronavirus Deaths Per Day

California Coronavirus Deaths Per Day

 

[SpinningEdge]

Florida continues to have fewer deaths from Covid than New York and California while being fully wide open & NY/Cali have strict vaccine mandates.

Mandates and lockdowns proving to not work more and more. Makes no difference.

Florida Coronavirus Deaths Per Day

New York Coronavirus Deaths Per Day

California Coronavirus Deaths Per Day

also, unemployment lower in Florida as California still has worst unemployment rate in the country and New York 4th worst in country.

Unemployment Rates for States

 

[SpinningEdge]

Florida grew 6x the national average of labor force.

Florida has gone 20 consecutive months of job growth.

Economy there is booming - with fewer deaths than other states with mandates and lockdowns.

Month after month, Florida job growth has outperformed the nation

When you look at this you can see how well they’ve handled Covid vs states mandating. Especially recently.

Add in that Florida and Texas are most moved to places in country, you can see what people want.

Freedom. Personal choice. Science. That is what is winning in Florida.

Meanwhile. California (especially San Francisco) leads the country in small businesses going out of business. 48% of small businesses are closed due to Covid in SF. Super sad. Especially when it makes no difference compared to open states without and Covid mandates.

 

[g00n]

Wrong. You’re wrong again.

It’s posted everywhere. Not just a right wing site.

but funny you’ll post NY Times stuff like that’s not far left.

so yeah - it’s real news and is posted literally everywhere. Even Psaki played defense to it.

the study was from john Hopkins - and many others show same stats.

lockdowns don’t work. It’s factual. Reason why tons of countries are opening up with zero restrictions and Psaki is throwing Fauci under the bus. They know they were wrong and it does nothing.

... just like how few people are getting boosters. They see with their own eyes and see real facts - and that’s why under 30% are getting a booster.

View attachment 505001

You didn't read the snopes link, did you? It addresses your comments.

The source you cited was right wing. The source of the "study" is right wing and is NOT a JHU study. It's being circulated among right wing sources and that of course gets repeated until other media sources pick up and repeat the same headline. That's how "fake news" spreads.

I suggest you read "Active Measures" and watch the documentaries "Agents of Chaos" and "The Great Hack" for more info on these techniques.

This is a familiar trick and Psaki playing defense against it before being able to research what it really is doesn't mean it's true. She referred the analysis to SCIENTISTS on the actual data, and said we have tools to manage COVID without locking down right now.

As was pointed out the "study" does not even measure lockdowns.

You are being manipulated and you are not listening to what people are telling you about your sources.

 

[g00n]

All this NY vs FL stuff has already been addressed in this thread.

Also, the Florida death data does not seem to be accurate. There is something wrong with the source data. As was explained before they have inconsistent reporting that throws off the 7 day moving average. They'll report 0 deaths for a week or more then drop hundreds of deaths, so that changes the numbers.

Additionally, the source you used just doesn't match the actual data even with that in mind. This source has daily average at 193 and rising, not 8 and falling:

Florida coronavirus cases and deaths

Same here:

States ranked by COVID-19 death rates

Per 100K residents and in daily totals the death rate is worse in FL than NY.

Here is local FL news reporting rising/lagging death stats:

Florida COVID cases trend down as deaths rise

One reason for this again is FLORIDA HAS INTENTIONALLY SHITTY REPORTING. Even the CDC can't keep up with their bogus statistical manipulations. Look at this map:

COVID Data Tracker

If you mouse over FL you see ZERO cases per 100k being reported. This is indicative of flaws in the reporting and recording, not actual elimination of COVID.

They report this way so they can control the data and manipulate people with bogus 7 day stats. It's why you get some sites listing low deaths and others listing high deaths. People can't keep up with the wonky data.

I can't even download the weekly PDF from FL's website because it's flagged as a security risk.

So look at cumulative factors instead.

Here is the CDC's vulnerability map:

COVID Data Tracker

FL is still high while NY and MD are much lower.

There is also a problem with your narrative that FL has been wide open. They have not. And in fact they've had to implement gathering bans and movement restriction to curb spikes. When those have been lifted cases have spiked as have deaths. Look at the data:

COVID Data Tracker

Note the peak last winter and the dark blue gathering ban bar below that helped bring it down. The same applied for spread in the spring. Remember for 2021, vaccines were in effect, too.


Also, why are you looking at deaths as an indication of spread? The case counts have been dropping in states that had Omicron earliest, as predicted. Deaths are a lagging indicator and apply mostly to UNVACCINATED people or the elderly & at risk.

NY cases:

Breakthrough data:

COVID-19 Breakthrough Data

As of data received through January 30, 2022, the New York State Department of Health is aware of:

• 1,124,785 laboratory-confirmed breakthrough cases of COVID-19 among fully-vaccinated people in New York State, which corresponds to 8.5% of the population of fully-vaccinated people 12-years or older.
• 36,095 hospitalizations with COVID-19 among fully-vaccinated people in New York State, which corresponds to 0.27% of the population of fully-vaccinated people 12-years or older.

These results indicate that laboratory-confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infections and hospitalizations with COVID-19 have been uncommon events among the population of people who are fully-vaccinated (≥14 days after completing their vaccine series).

COVID-19 HOSPITALIZATIONS

• Comparing the rates of COVID-19 hospitalization between fully-vaccinated and unvaccinated people using age-adjusted vaccine effectiveness, fully-vaccinated New Yorkers remain strongly protected against COVID-19 hospitalization.
  • Across the time period of analysis, fully-vaccinated New Yorkers had between an 90.2% and 95.8% lower chance of being hospitalized with COVID-19, compared to unvaccinated New Yorkers.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Taken together these results demonstrate that vaccines continue to be highly-effective at protecting New York residents from infection and hospitalization with COVID-19. Put simply, these outcomes are occurring among vaccinated people, but at levels far lower than among unvaccinated people, because vaccines work.
  • The ongoing >89% effectiveness against hospitalization is consistent with the results of the original vaccine clinical trials’ results, which showed protection from severe COVID-19 disease at these levels.
  • Effectiveness against laboratory-confirmed infections is high, but lower than against COVID-19 hospitalization.
    • The reasons for changes in this effectiveness estimate are unclear and may be due to declines in immunity from the vaccines, the marked increase in the levels of the Delta variant during this time period (to >99% of specimens in the federal region containing New York State), and/or changes in protective behaviors over time. This is an area of active study by scientists in New York and around the world.
• Role for Additional Protective Measures: Because vaccines do not offer 100% protection, additional protective measures, such as mask wearing, and social distancing will provide additional protection. Please read the CDC's interim public health recommendations for fully vaccinated people.

You are citing the effects of POPULATION DENSITY and NOT BEING VACCINATED as proof against vaccination.

Look at the comparison:

Unvaccinated people in NY are 10-14x more likely to get COVID and to be hospitalized for it. This has held up EVERYWHERE.

But even NYC, which is where vaccine mandates would have the most effect vs statewide, is showing DECLINES in both cases and deaths:

COVID-19: Latest Data - NYC Health

AGAIN, in NYC the case rate is MUCH higher for the unvaccinated:

AGAIN, in NYC the death rate is MUCH higher for the unvaccinated:

Please stop this nonsense. You are in an information bubble and you are being lied to.

 

[g00n]

No I don't think it will. I read an article (sorry it was pay-walled) that claims Spotify have a $100 million dollar deal with Rogan for ALL of his current, future, and past podcasts. Apparently he has a MUCH bigger following and is a way bigger drawcard than
angry old Neil, washed up Joni, and Nils "I had one hit song 50 years ago" Lofgren.

From the article:

An estimated 200 million people download Rogan’s podcast each month, making him the most popular podcaster in the US.
When Spotify signed a US$100 million deal with Rogan in 2020 for the exclusive rights to his podcast the industry took notice. Before this, podcasts were everywhere, and their “platform agnostic” status was central to their appeal for creators and audiences.
The deal was a gamble, but one based on the numbers. As music journalist Ted Gioia put it in May 2020, “Spotify values Rogan more than any musician in the history of the world”. The reason? “A musician would need to generate 23 billion streams on Spotify to earn what they’re paying Joe Rogan for his podcast rights”.

Spotify deletes over 100 'Joe Rogan Experience' episodes | Engadget

They've deleted over 100 episodes and counting, though the reasons are fuzzy. Claims that it has nothing to do with the controversy seem flimsy.

 

[twabby]

You believe China... that’s on you. China also said they had 0 cases for a year basically - then olympics are happening and all of a sudden Covid is real again.

China literally lies... about everything.

I believe them to the extent that I believe the USA. Both countries likely fudge their numbers a bit, but the orders of magnitude are likely correct. There's no reason to believe that China isn't doing approximately 800 to 900 times better than the United States when it comes to the death rate, for instance. Especially since China has very publicly enacted a zero-COVID policy and has acted swiftly to stop the spread once even a single case is detected.

The cases being found at the Olympics are from foreigners who have brought the virus from abroad. Hardly some indictment of China's COVID policies, seeing as these people are now being quarantined and isolated as appropriate.

I don't really know how to deprogram you from instinctively believing China lies about everything while taking an obviously flawed study and a story from the Daily Wire, founded by famous hobbit Ben Shapiro, at face value. Perhaps the latter has led to the former?

 

[twabby]

This is from an ostensible left-wing publication. As if anyone else really needed a reminder that The Economy is all that matters, and that the wealthy will gladly have you and yours die a horrible death if it means they can eke out a few more percentage points in earnings.

 

[g00n]

Yes because nothing has changed since May 2020.

JFC

 

[SpinningEdge]

I believe them to the extent that I believe the USA. Both countries likely fudge their numbers a bit, but the orders of magnitude are likely correct. There's no reason to believe that China isn't doing approximately 800 to 900 times better than the United States when it comes to the death rate, for instance. Especially since China has very publicly enacted a zero-COVID policy and has acted swiftly to stop the spread once even a single case is detected.

The cases being found at the Olympics are from foreigners who have brought the virus from abroad. Hardly some indictment of China's COVID policies, seeing as these people are now being quarantined and isolated as appropriate.

I don't really know how to deprogram you from instinctively believing China lies about everything while taking an obviously flawed study and a story from the Daily Wire, founded by famous hobbit Ben Shapiro, at face value. Perhaps the latter has led to the former?

It’s the first link - but it’s everywhere.

daily wire just posted the link.

here’s yahoo posting same study.

COVID Lockdowns Have Little Health Benefit: Johns Hopkins Study

goon is trying to post links for 7 days data when I gave him proof for a month.

Vaccines don’t work. They don’t stop the spread of stop you from getting it. It only helps you if you do get it, which is a personal decision and plenty of people are healthy and don’t need the vaccine (like me who got first shot - saw it doesn’t work or do anything for people like me - I got it just like millions of others recently - was fine and am 100% 24 hrs later). No need for mandating that.

two: the boosters aren’t being had bc of it doesn’t work well. Reason under 30% have gotten boosters.

three: people are over it and it’s time to get back to normal. White House gave up on Covid. Most states won’t lock down ever again bc science is proven it doesn’t work.

You both have every right to stay in your house, triple mask your kids, and be scared of the air. People are living now again. People are out. Things are getting back to normal, people are mostly against mandates, and over this. I’m in Florida now on a golf trip and nobody cares about Covid here. They’re living, happy, no one wears masks in stores, and more people are still dying of Covid in New York.

reason people move to places like here where the economy is booming and mandated states have more businesses going out of business, less tourists than before, higher unemployment, and people are generally more happy.

People like me are the perfect example
Of why mandates are dumb. 90% of vaccinated people are higher risk than me when they get Covid. That’s just a fact.

 

[twabby]

Yes because nothing has changed since May 2020.

JFC

I know, more people are dying now!

 

[g00n]

It’s the first link - but it’s everywhere.

daily wire just posted the link.

here’s yahoo posting same study.

COVID Lockdowns Have Little Health Benefit: Johns Hopkins Study

goon is trying to post links for 7 days data when I gave him proof for a month.

Vaccines don’t work. They don’t stop the spread of stop you from getting it. It only helps you if you do get it, which is a personal decision and plenty of people are healthy and don’t need the vaccine (like me who got first shot - saw it doesn’t work or do anything for people like me - I got it just like millions of others recently - was fine and am 100% 24 hrs later). No need for mandating that.

two: the boosters aren’t being had bc of it doesn’t work well. Reason under 30% have gotten boosters.

three: people are over it and it’s time to get back to normal. White House gave up on Covid. Most states won’t lock down ever again bc science is proven it doesn’t work.

You both have every right to stay in your house, triple mask your kids, and be scared of the air. People are living now again. People are out. Things are getting back to normal, people are mostly against mandates, and over this. I’m in Florida now on a golf trip and nobody cares about Covid here. They’re living, happy, no one wears masks in stores, and more people are still dying of Covid in New York.

reason people move to places like here where the economy is booming and mandated states have more businesses going out of business, less tourists than before, higher unemployment, and people are generally more happy.

People like me are the perfect example
Of why mandates are dumb. 90% of vaccinated people are higher risk than me when they get Covid. That’s just a fact.

You can keep repeating this crap but it doesn't mean it's true.

 

[g00n]

I know, more people are dying now!

We've been over this. You don't have a workable plan and you're just complaining.

 

[g00n]

It’s the first link - but it’s everywhere.

daily wire just posted the link.

here’s yahoo posting same study.

COVID Lockdowns Have Little Health Benefit: Johns Hopkins Study

goon is trying to post links for 7 days data when I gave him proof for a month.

Vaccines don’t work. They don’t stop the spread of stop you from getting it. It only helps you if you do get it, which is a personal decision and plenty of people are healthy and don’t need the vaccine (like me who got first shot - saw it doesn’t work or do anything for people like me - I got it just like millions of others recently - was fine and am 100% 24 hrs later). No need for mandating that.

two: the boosters aren’t being had bc of it doesn’t work well. Reason under 30% have gotten boosters.

three: people are over it and it’s time to get back to normal. White House gave up on Covid. Most states won’t lock down ever again bc science is proven it doesn’t work.

You both have every right to stay in your house, triple mask your kids, and be scared of the air. People are living now again. People are out. Things are getting back to normal, people are mostly against mandates, and over this. I’m in Florida now on a golf trip and nobody cares about Covid here. They’re living, happy, no one wears masks in stores, and more people are still dying of Covid in New York.

reason people move to places like here where the economy is booming and mandated states have more businesses going out of business, less tourists than before, higher unemployment, and people are generally more happy.

People like me are the perfect example
Of why mandates are dumb. 90% of vaccinated people are higher risk than me when they get Covid. That’s just a fact.

Also I've read the bullshit you've posted and digested and dissected it while citing proof that it's flawed. You're clearly not even reading what's being shown in response.

So you've got your fingers in your ears and hands over your eyes.

Stop. Posting. Disinfo.

 

[SpinningEdge]

This is from an ostensible left-wing publication. As if anyone else really needed a reminder that The Economy is all that matters, and that the wealthy will gladly have you and yours die a horrible death if it means they can eke out a few more percentage points in earnings.

freedom matters.

... and yes, elites don’t give a shit if people die. That’s not going to change regardless of Covid.

what matters is taking care of yourself and your family. If that’s getting vaccinated - go for it. If you’re healthy or young and literally zero risk if you get Covid - you can choose not to get the vaccine too.

Again, reason people are moving to free and open states and leaving in mass numbers with lockdown/mandates states. People are adults and for something 99.8% of people are fine from outnumber 0.2%. You don’t ruin the country, economy, people’s lives, jobs, families, etc for 0.2%. Instead, the 0.2% need to take more responsibility.

Covid lockdowns and mandates are ending. Either live with it or continue to live in fear. Your choice - just like mine. I’m living my life normal just like almost everyone else at this point. Some people need every booster - while others are healthy & have a strong immune system.

 

[SpinningEdge]

We are in year 3 of this and more lockdowns won’t be listened to - mandates are ending in more places - states are becoming fully open and normal - people have proven they want to be in open states and not in lockdowns states.

deaths with mandates vs no mandates make no difference. We see it with real numbers. Open and free states where people are out working and living normal otherwise have zero difference with Covid - besides people being happier being more free.

whether people want to like it or not - the world is moving on. Inflation, businesses going under, record high drug overdoses, record high suicides, etc are all directly connected to Covid. Those can ruin and end lives just like covid can.

If the vaccines work and masks work - people can do that and not worry about other decisions. The way it should be. If vaccines are safe and people want them - fine - go get them. But if you think others need to be vaccinated or mask - then you’re admitting the masks and vaccines don’t work. Amazing how brainwashed ppl are with that.

doesn’t mean others need to do the same... everyone’s health, body, personal decisions, and how they make it in life is their own choice.

 

[g00n]

You just don't get how this all works. At all.

 

[SpinningEdge]

Also I've read the bullshit you've posted and digested and dissected it while citing proof that it's flawed. You're clearly not even reading what's being shown in response.

So you've got your fingers in your ears and hands over your eyes.

Stop. Posting. Disinfo.

Your responses have been proven to be a 7 day small period - or just left wing opinions.

I literally live with someone who works at a hospital daily.... someone who is legit a doctor.

She knows more than you... as do many other doctors. I’ve taken and heard all sides and the obvious answer is if you’re fat, very old, have other health issues - go get the vaccine. You should.

If you’re young, healthy, or don’t have other health complications you’re fine & should be able to make your own decision.

reason college football games have been packed, 98% of schools are open again, and literally there’s no difference in young people being at risk.

 

[g00n]

Your responses have been proven to be a 7 day small period - or just left wing opinions.

I literally live with someone who works at a hospital daily.... someone who is legit a doctor.

She knows more than you... as do many other doctors. I’ve taken and heard all sides and the obvious answer is if you’re fat, very old, have other health issues - go get the vaccine. You should.

If you’re young, healthy, or don’t have other health complications you’re fine & should be able to make your own decision.

reason college football games have been packed, 98% of schools are open again, and literally there’s no difference in young people being at risk.

No, again, read what I wrote. You are completely dismissing or missing the details in the stats. I've explained Florida's reporting issues and how the 7 day moving average works (or doesn't).

You don't understand what you're reading and you certainly can't interpret the nuances of the data, or the broader implications of policies.

You're also conflating the cause and effect of prevention measures. We've talked about this before.

I don't care what your girlfriend says. There are plenty of healthcare workers who took up the trade to make money and aren't very good at it. Just because you can poke an IV in someone's arm doesn't make you an epidemiologist. And the real experts agree with what I'm saying, not what you're saying, which is just right wing spin or countercultural conpsiracy garbage.

But I suppose that's the mentality necessary to think somehow "big pharma" is managing to convince nearly every politician and scientist in the world to go along with some global scheme to kill millions of people and destroy economies, for SOME reason.

Makes a lot of sense......

 

[kicksavedave]

Lockdowns have done nothing except hurt society in other ways.

john hopkinf study found lockdowns did absolutely nothing basically

Johns Hopkins Study: Lockdowns Had ‘Little To No Effect On COVID-19 Mortality’ But Had ‘Devastating’ Effects On Society | The Daily Wire

Did you read the entire paper you linked? The problems with it are numerous.

First of all, its not a study, its a summary report of other studies, hand selected from thousands (18,590) down to 24 for inclusion on their summary findings. It cherry picks by hand which studies to include/exclude, trying to pretend its purely scientific but their own bias creeps in all over. "We exclude studies that use cases, hospitalizations, or other measures." Cases and hospitalizations tie directly into mortality, so excluding them makes the impact of this report more dramatic in making the authors case. It also ignores that a large part of the "lockdown" approach was to "flatten the curve" so that hospitals don't get overrun, and the report ignores that important goal as well.

Second, the point of the report is to show that lockdowns had no real impact on mortality, but there are several problems with that assumption. The first is that any "lockdown" according to the report assumes 100% adherence to the spirit of the lockdown, but our own eyes tell us this never really happened. On day one, a sizable chunk of the population fought against and ignored any mandates, from masking, to restaurant closures, school closings, etc. The Fed never really locked down much of anything, except a very brief restriction on some international travel, which had no real impact for obvious reasons - it was too late, it was brief, it was not thorough. States and counties locked down some aspects, from schools, to restuarants/hair salons, large gatherings, mask mandates, etc, but again it was not consistent, it was far too late to stop all the spread, and even where there were mandates, far too many citizens refused to comply for various reasons, meaning the lockdowns weren't really lockdowns at all. There was no marshall law imposed.

The second problem is it purposely excludes pharmaceutical interventions and their impact on mortality. One specifically, Remdesivir/Veklury, had a large impact on reducing the mortality rate in severe, hospitalized patients. It wasn't available at the start of the pandemic but since summer 2020, it has reduced mortality vs no treatment considerably, but it's use intentionally ignored as part of this cherry picked set of data.

Bottom line is there are always ways to massage any data to show an outcome you want. This isn't a study with a control group, its a collection of data from other reports, hand picked to make a point. I could easily hand pick other data from other studies to make the opposite point, but let's use simple logic instead.

Let's imagine there are 10,000 random people gathered closely in a crowd, and you drop 4 covid positive contagious people into the mix. What would be the covid positive rate after 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, etc. Assuming no one had any treatment and no one isolated, the crowd stays together as a crowd and mingles freely as if nothing was happening. You would expect it would climb, and eventually almost the entire 10,000 would catch covid. Some portion of them would die from it, again excluding the impact of treatment which this report clearly does.

Now imagine 10,000 people who are entirely locked down in their house. They work from home, they have food delivered safely, they never join any crowds, they are truly quarantined. Now you drop 4 random covid cases into 4 random houses. What's the spread rate after 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, etc. And what is the associated mortality rate?

The point is, lockdowns clearly, undeniably, conclusively work, to stop the spread and associated mortality, but lockdowns never really happened at all. There were some half assed restrictions, most of them were either ignored or had too many exemptions to be meaningful. Also there is no question that real lockdowns hurt the economy, which is why the Govt dumped several trillion dollars of borrowed money to reduce the impact. But that was never the question we should have been asking.

The question to ask is, how many avoidable deaths are acceptable to avoid hurting the economy? What number would you personally feel comfortable saying "thats OK, keep the economy flowing" vs what number would you say "that's too many dead people, maybe we should shut things down". Because that's the only question that really needs an answer. But saying the number out loud may not seem as easy as saying "lockdowns don't work".

 

[kicksavedave]

BTW, vaccination IS a personal choice, and everyone, has the right to refuse to be vaccinated.

Working at your preferred choice of company however, is NOT a personal right, so if a company decides it wants to require vaccinations as a condition of employment, the SCOTUS has ruled many times that the company is allowed to do that. So, ultimately, people are free to make their own decisions, and people are doing that. But making our own decisions has never been free from consequences and people are experiencing those consequences in real time.

The govt cannot force you to get vaccinated, but it can restrict your access to some aspects of public life in some rare instances. Just like it restricts your freedom to drive uninsured without a license, smoke cigarettes on an airplane, or to spray flame throwers in crowded areas.