Coronavirus in Football

phisherman

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Apr 17, 2015
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Again what is the difference between any regular joe on this planet that will eventually have to move on and professional athletes? They will be tested for sure and closely monitored. You make it seems like they are sending them all to death sentences.

Nobody will play if they have symptoms (covid or whatever) and/or if they are positive.

When the time comes when it's deemed safe enough for a regular joe to move on then the players will start playing.

But right now they're still setting dates on when the league should start while countries are still experiencing lockdowns or possibly imposing lockdowns again.

You do realize you can have it but be asymptomatic right? Are we to assume all players be tested everyday with results coming in on the same day?
 

JeffreyLFC

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Sep 29, 2017
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Key word: eventually.

Also, the second someone tests positive you have to quarantine everyone they've been in contact with. That effectively means the second someone tests positive, you have to cancel the season again. You can't reduce that risk to 0, so I have no idea how this is supposed to work (and something tells me neither does the PL).

If you've got the magic bullet, I'm all ears.
Like I said, there are 2 options, lockdown everything until there is a cure or resume life but with extra precautionary measures. Could they lockdown again if another case happen? definitely. I don't say resuming sport is the best way to go. I am just saying that until we have a cure life will move on with this risk.
 

JeffreyLFC

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Sep 29, 2017
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When the time comes when it's deemed safe enough for a regular joe to move on then the players will start playing.

But right now they're still setting dates on when the league should start while countries are still experiencing lockdowns or possibly imposing lockdowns again.

You do realize you can have it but be asymptomatic right? Are we to assume all players be tested everyday with results coming in on the same day?
I am not assuming anything.

I already pointed out the risks, professional athletes are possibly one of the lowest group to be potentially affected by the virus. Asymptomatic people are already everywhere and it's quite possible many people already have contracted the virus without knowing it. The risk is there even when you stay at home.

I realize it is a very sensitive subject but there is no right or wrong answer, just facts, they are already planning reopening school and services where I live and there are still significant numbers of new cases everyday. We are not in a risk free world and I consider myself quite lucky to be still relatively young and healthy to cope with this risk.

If your opinion is to lockdown everything until we have a cure I would understand your view but we are potentially talking from 9 months to a year from now... so no football next year either.
 
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phisherman

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Apr 17, 2015
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I am not assuming anything.

I already pointed out the risks, professional athletes are possibly one of the lowest group to be potentially affected by the virus. Asymptomatic people are already everywhere and it's quite possible many people already have contracted the virus without knowing it. The risk is there even when you stay at home.

I realize it is a very sensitive subject but there is no right or wrong answer, just facts, they are already planning reopening school and services where I live and there are still significant numbers of new cases everyday. We are not in a risk free world and I consider myself quite lucky to be still relatively young and healthy to cope with this risk.

If your opinion is to lockdown everything until we have a cure I would understand your view but we are potentially talking from 9 months to a year from now... so no football next year either.

The problem is there's no solid plan to get things started. And people are ready to disregard any potential consequences that players may be experiencing just to get footy back on.

Keep in mind the Chinese Super League hasn't even started up yet and they've already eased their lockdown.
 

Stray Wasp

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May 5, 2009
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Players will be participating at an activity that works up their heart and lungs. We don't know what effect that could have with a virus that attacks the respiratory system.

We don't. Then again, running per se hasn't been banned among the general, less healthy, population which it might be by such a rationale.

And, once more for good luck, by the same token they shouldn't be permitting anyone to smoke right now.
 

phisherman

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Apr 17, 2015
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We don't. Then again, running per se hasn't been banned among the general, less healthy, population which it might be by such a rationale.

And, once more for good luck, by the same token they shouldn't be permitting anyone to smoke right now.

Are most workers required to run or smoke though?
 

Stray Wasp

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May 5, 2009
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You're right we don't know anything about it now. What we do know is people that may be healthy but not physically and mentally strained (see doctors and nurses as examples) have died from this.

Players don't play if they have the flu. But yet it's fine to send them out while there's a more contagious flu that no one really knows how to treat?

Doctors and nurses have been under immense physical and mental strain as a result of having to deal with so many cases of this virus. That increases their risk when being exposed to the severest strains of it in such volumes while in hospital wards (with the failure to provide correct equipment for the task an additional peril in some cases). Also, we should bear in mind that there are fears over what repeated night shift work does to people's health, eg HuffPost is now a part of Verizon Media

Given that the technology to permit working after dark is a relatively recent phenomenon in human history, it's easy to imagine that our bodies still somewhat rebel against being asked to work at night and sleep in the day. And that slipping in and out of such cycles would also strain the body over time.

Games wouldn't be played inside hospital wards surrounded by extremely sick people. The players wouldn't be required to kick off at, say, 2am.

The flip side to that is the mental health of players will need to be taken account of too before asking them to play - bullying them into playing might lower their resistance to the virus.

And transport to and from games will be a big concern - whether by plane, train or coach, the enclosed environment will be riskier.
 

Stray Wasp

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Are most workers required to run or smoke though?

Aren't we having a conversation about how risk is being evaluated?

No workers are being required to smoke or give up running. No workers are being required to give up smoking or run. But we know which of those pairs of behaviours medical professionals would usually consider to contain the greatest risks to the hearts and lungs.

Footballers aren't being required to do anything right now apart from not play football based on the theory that in consequence lives will be saved - or, to put it more accurately, that a comfortingly small number of Covid-19 patients will die with the disease or of the disease- should we ever find out whether there is an important distinction between those two conditions. (No government has been able completely to prevent deaths, even the relative success stories such as Singapore, Australia and New Zealand).
 

gary69

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Sep 22, 2004
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We already saw what happened in Italy when the medical system was over strained: they had to choose who lived and who died and that is wrong on so many levels. Many medical practitioners will need therapy after such horrifying experiences. It also means things like workers suffering burn outs and getting infected causing a domino effect where things get increasingly worse and not better.

Italy's case is abit different regarding the deaths at hospitals than any other countries in Europe.

In Italy most elderly people lived at home with the younger generations, and when they got sick / showed symptons, they were taken to hospitals and died there. So in Italy they don't have carehomes etc. as much as most other countries.

It's estimated/calculated that most deaths in Europe have actually happened in carehomes (half or even 2/3) in other countries and because those people were never taken to hospital in the first place, they were never going to overwhelm the medical system. Apart from Belgium, most countries haven't included the outside hospital deaths in their corona death toll (initially, because of lack of testing mostly).

On the other hand, Belgium likely did it too rigorously, as they've announced that 90% of the deats have been because of coronavirus. But only about 10% of those deemed to have died because of coronavirus, had actually been tested to have it. Others have been included based on that they had showed some symptoms associated with virus.

Only today, UK started to include suspected outside hospital corona deaths in their death toll.
 
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gary69

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It's highly unlikely Dybala gets 'reinfected' every other week via community interaction. It's a lot more likely the virus simply lingered in him. There's been increasing reports of people even with mild symptoms saying that symptoms come and go for a lot longer than the 2 weeks they initially talked about (based on likely problematic Chinese data).

There's also concern that a lot of tests used are not reliable to detect the virus properly in all of those stages. These tests were developed in a rush, often skipping various steps typically taken to ensure reliability, and research into this virus is currently still in its early stages. So much of our 'certainties' about the virus come from early research in China which likely did not show the full picture as it is starting to emerge now.

Or maybe Dybala has genetically worse immune system than most others, if he were of the risk group age, he could be amongst the 50 % that would have died at hopital ICU. Even with the underlying conditions accepted as the cause, it's still not clear why some comparable people die in the ICU within days, some recover within a week, and some have to stay in ICU for well over month (and still recover).
 

phisherman

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Apr 17, 2015
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Aren't we having a conversation about how risk is being evaluated?

No workers are being required to smoke or give up running. No workers are being required to give up smoking or run. But we know which of those pairs of behaviours medical professionals would usually consider to contain the greatest risks to the hearts and lungs.

Footballers aren't being required to do anything right now apart from not play football based on the theory that in consequence lives will be saved - or, to put it more accurately, that a comfortingly small number of Covid-19 patients will die with the disease or of the disease- should we ever find out whether there is an important distinction between those two conditions. (No government has been able completely to prevent deaths, even the relative success stories such as Singapore, Australia and New Zealand).

What's the appropriate level of risk for footballers? I mean it just came out that there are a larger number of 30 and 40 year olds that are getting strokes because of covid-19. And also that there are children that are experiencing symptoms similar to the kawasaki disease because of covid-19.

So is it okay to ask footballers to play while even scientists are still learning the impact this virus has? Or are we just going to assume they're all under 30 and therefore they will have no health concerns?

Even Sweden hasn't started their league play yet and everyone is jerking off to how they're handling the situation.
 

gary69

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Sep 22, 2004
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Sources: Prem players don't want to play during virus

Not surprised. These players aren't robots that just go where they're told. They're just as concerned about their safety and the safety of their families as the rest (most) of us.

Most of them would probably be quite willing to go to pubs, nightclubs, beaches and social gatherings (with a larger group of people than on the pitch) whilst those are allowed again in the summer.

Once the restaurants and pubs are allowed to open again, there's no logical reason to prevent playing matches without spectators.
 
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TheMoreYouKnow

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Or maybe Dybala has genetically worse immune system than most others, if he were of the risk group age, he could be amongst the 50 % that would have died at hopital ICU. Even with the underlying conditions accepted as the cause, it's still not clear why some comparable people die in the ICU within days, some recover within a week, and some have to stay in ICU for well over month (and still recover).

I've seen so many theories propagated for all of these differences. It could be genetic, so different death rates in different countries could actually be down to genetics in that country. I've also seen it theorized that a certain % of the population may have partial immunity due to previous infections with structurally similar coronaviruses aka variants of 'the common cold'. And of course those previous infections could also have been far more prevalent in some countries than others.

But again we're really just at the early stages and let's be honest there's still plenty of unknown stuff about diseases that have been with us for centuries..so it might well be that there's always going to be an element of mystery to this virus, at least for several decades.

My main point about Dybala was that it's exceedingly unlikely that the man got 'cured' and then randomly catches it again..three times within a few weeks. It's far more likely that there's some irregularities/issues with how well the virus is detected by the tests used.
 

keonsbitterness

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it's pretty clear what the right thing to do is, but i suspect that wont be done due to pressure.
If by pressure you mean money, then yes. 40 years ago I bet they would have scrapped every domestic and European competition by now, and they'd be planning for the 80-81 season.
 

member 305909

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Yes, it's all about money. Or more specifically, about avoiding losing a lot of money.

Otherwise this whole discussion is absurd. Continuing some ball-game in the middle of a world-wide emergency should be the last thing on anyone's mind except those who are going to lose a lot of money.
 

Jussi

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Coronavirus: Gary Neville discusses risk football authorities must take to resume matches

"We're hearing different things every day, but I think if this was a non-economic decision, there would be no football for months. What we're seeing now is that people are assessing risk. What is the risk we're willing to take to bring football back?

"The reasons we're discussing football coming back at this moment in time are purely economic reasons, but I get it. I'm across the road from a construction site in the centre of Manchester, and there are people still wandering around who have been for the past four or five weeks.

"These people will see it as a risk that's no greater than the industry that we're in. There will be people who will look at it as a risk factor, but if people are really serious about putting health first, we wouldn't be discussing football returning at this moment in time, but players themselves will want to go and play.
 

Stray Wasp

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What's the appropriate level of risk for footballers? I mean it just came out that there are a larger number of 30 and 40 year olds that are getting strokes because of covid-19. And also that there are children that are experiencing symptoms similar to the kawasaki disease because of covid-19.

So is it okay to ask footballers to play while even scientists are still learning the impact this virus has? Or are we just going to assume they're all under 30 and therefore they will have no health concerns?

Even Sweden hasn't started their league play yet and everyone is jerking off to how they're handling the situation.

We return to the point that it might take years for scientists to develop an accurate sense of what impact the virus has. Would it be proportionate to grind society to a halt for the full duration of the interim period?

It's interesting to see Gary Neville's thoughts in the post above about risk - and the point he raises about construction workers is an important one, not merely because that industry remains at work, but because construction work can involve exposure to dust - with effects that might increase one's vulnerability to Covid-19, as alluded to here Construction dust - Controlling hazardous substances - Managing occupational health risks in construction.

I wonder whether anyone has done comparisons between incidences of infection among key workers cut according to their professions, and whether any trends emerge. Likely not, given that testing has overwhelmingly been focused on health professionals. The deaths of health staff, bus and tube drivers has been quantified from time to time in the media, but not so shop workers or construction workers as far as I am aware. (Which I'd suggest would prompt a question - if the latter two sectors aren't receiving much consideration from the media, why not - there was much initial reporting about some construction workers resenting being classed as key workers. All the more important, surely, to investigate whether those fears were justified.)

Footballers would be expected to be healthier physical specimens than construction workers or shop workers; they work far shorter hours than pretty much any other industry you care to name, and they work almost exclusively in the open air. They wouldn't need to take public transport to work, though as I've mentioned they'd need to be packed into either coaches or planes, depending on circumstances (though I imagine the cost to clubs of hiring extra buses or planes to permit socially-distant travelling would pale into insignificance compared to the losses of precious TV funds). What difference any or all of that makes to risk, who can tell?

In this country, much has been made of the number of BAME deaths exceeding that group's representation in the general population. The general response has tended to be that this is not an issue related to ethnicity, but to one of social inequality. If the virus is likelier to kill poor people than rich, then surely any player who passes the Van Hooijdonk test is safe as houses.

As for Sweden, you must feel reassured to have the US President coming down with his full heft against their approach to the crisis. In the UK, meanwhile, Sweden's methods are far more criticised and doubted than supported, even in the liberal media outlets that would usually hold it up as the New Jerusalem, though a vocal minority (mostly, ironically, from those who would habitually deprecate Sweden's social democratic model) continues to put the case that theirs is the most proportionate response.
 

Duchene2MacKinnon

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Aug 8, 2006
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Didnt the Belgian league have one match week left? If so, those guys are being dumb. Lique 1 is done and dusted winners announced their not going to reverse their decision. Serie A could be interesting all the experts are saying they should null the season. These owners want their $. We see who wins.
 

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